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Looking for some input on whether or not raven guard gunlines are competitive now that most lists will be gunlines. Thoughts?

Not really.

Competitive? Sure
Tournament winning? No

And most armies will not be gunlines. Guard will continue to be a very successful gunline as did Tau get a boost, but overall the recent FAQ changes have just make Turn 1 Alpha strike not so easy.
Turn 2 Alpha strike is still very much a thing and aside from MAYBE Guard, I can't think of a single gunline army that can consistently wipe all enemies of all kinds off the board in first turn only.
Especially since -1 to hit army traits are still a thing.

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 Galef wrote:
Competitive? Sure
Tournament winning? No

And most armies will not be gunlines. Guard will continue to be a very successful gunline as did Tau get a boost, but overall the recent FAQ changes have just make Turn 1 Alpha strike not so easy.
Turn 2 Alpha strike is still very much a thing and aside from MAYBE Guard, I can't think of a single gunline army that can consistently wipe all enemies of all kinds off the board in first turn only.
Especially since -1 to hit army traits are still a thing.

-

What which armies are you playing that get wiped off the board entirely by Guard on turn 1?

 Thrst77 wrote:
now that most lists will be gunlines. Thoughts?

I think that is some solid speculation that won't pan out in the long run.

Ultramarines are the most competitive since their CT is basically the keyword Fly. What I have seen of RG is that SftS is basically making it that much faster to be destroyed.

I honestly think ultramarines got worse. The fact that you can post up in a ruin, cover the floor and not be charged if there is no room is great. I know you wont be able to in every match but it still seems good. That and guilliman is 400pts making him almost 1/4 of a list. I think ultramarines are going to go more deathball and ravenguard are going to be a gunline.

 meleti wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Competitive? Sure
Tournament winning? No

And most armies will not be gunlines. Guard will continue to be a very successful gunline as did Tau get a boost, but overall the recent FAQ changes have just make Turn 1 Alpha strike not so easy.
Turn 2 Alpha strike is still very much a thing and aside from MAYBE Guard, I can't think of a single gunline army that can consistently wipe all enemies of all kinds off the board in first turn only.
Especially since -1 to hit army traits are still a thing.

-

What which armies are you playing that get wiped off the board entirely by Guard on turn 1?

Hence the capitalized "MAYBE". But in general I just don't see any gunline army being able to wipe the enemy in 1 turn. Restricting reserve arrival on turn 1 just makes gunline armies playable, but far from OP (well, the may be OP, but not for this particular reason)

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 Thrst77 wrote:
Looking for some input on whether or not raven guard gunlines are competitive now that most lists will be gunlines. Thoughts?

No? 12" away for the -1 means you're not getting rapid fire. You're trading highly disadvantageously point-for-point if you're out of rapid-fire range, even with the -1. Your optimal range needs to be near or greater than 18" for the -1 to be valuable.

I you're playing Raven Guard, I'd recommend taking it for the Strike from the Shadows strategem.

It has won any major events and you lose the -1 if you are close enough to assault, not well thought out IMO.

 Primark G wrote:
It has won any major events and you lose the -1 if you are close enough to assault, not well thought out IMO.

Yeah but post FAQ is a whole new rule set. Previous performance is not guarante of future success.
Unless your a point ear space elf.
SftS is one of the few ways to still get first turn charge.
Dreadnaughts no longer have to worry so much about getting tagged by deepstrike T1.
Bobby G passed the break point of to many points for his bonuses.

I wouldn't pigeon hole RG into gunline, they are the last hope of marines and they can still do a bit of both CC T1 and Supporting gunline.

It will probably be the best vanilla marine build, but that doesn't mean it will be particularly good...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Thrst77 wrote:
Looking for some input on whether or not raven guard gunlines are competitive now that most lists will be gunlines. Thoughts?

No? 12" away for the -1 means you're not getting rapid fire. You're trading highly disadvantageously point-for-point if you're out of rapid-fire range, even with the -1. Your optimal range needs to be near or greater than 18" for the -1 to be valuable.

I you're playing Raven Guard, I'd recommend taking it for the Strike from the Shadows strategem.

Rapid fire on what? Bolters? No one cares about bolters. The strongest RG lists I've seen rely on a castle with Devestators and Hellblasters surrounding a captain, Lietenants and an Ancient with scouts to screen and infiltrating 6 man Aggressor squads. It's a pretty decent list and pretty close to anything Ultramarines can put up but wont be winning tournaments.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
It has won any major events and you lose the -1 if you are close enough to assault, not well thought out IMO.

Yeah but post FAQ is a whole new rule set. Previous performance is not guarante of future success.
Unless your a point ear space elf.
SftS is one of the few ways to still get first turn charge.
Dreadnaughts no longer have to worry so much about getting tagged by deepstrike T1.
Bobby G passed the break point of to many points for his bonuses.

I wouldn't pigeon hole RG into gunline, they are the last hope of marines and they can still do a bit of both CC T1 and Supporting gunline.

Girlyman is finally apropriately pointed. It's the rest of the codex that lets him down.

RG has not even made the top 16 in any majors nor will they.

 Primark G wrote:
RG has not even made the top 16 in any majors nor will they.

They will now. Now that you can't Deep Strike straight to the opponent T1, opponents are going to be rewarded for bad deployment. Raven Guard are the only ones to be able to take advantage of that.

A. I can see where people think that gunlines will be top tier now, what with nerfs to deepstrike not only not being able to drop outside of deployment zone on turn 1, but also needing 50% of your army in Power Level on the field turn one, but the thing that people are forgetting is that the Rule of 3 exists. Gunlines often spam just as badly as anything else, and being limited in what they can spam will help curb that to some degree.

B. Raven Guard are going to be more potent as an assault force, if anything. They are now one of the few factions that can get into an opponent's face turn 1 via a Stratagem that has more to do with deployment than it does with deepstrike. With access to more command points through Battalions, this becomes even easier to do. Does that mean they're going to start winning tournaments? Who knows. A skilled player needs to build a strong list taking advantage of Raven Guard's key points, and then go play lots of games with them.

C. I'm getting pretty tired of 'Is this good now?' or 'Is this dead now?' threads. Play what you want to play. Collect, build, and paint what you want to collect, build, and paint. If you want to see if something is good, put the models on the table and play it out with your friends.

The question boils down to 'can RG get enough dakka from their dreadnoughts and devs?', as those are their two units that benefit from their CT whilst also being gunny enough to form a gunline. I think Mortis Dreads are legit, as are Leviathans. Devs are great, and got a big buff from the FAQ, so I think we'll be seeing heavy bolter/missile launcher devs popping up a bit more now. Along with intercessors overall benefitting, because they now have turn 1 to get into position to, you know, intercede, I think RG are a big winner from this FAQ. My homebrew chapter is going to be my main army for the next few months, rocking RG tactics. Fingers crossed.

What buffed Devs?

 Galef wrote:
Competitive? Sure
Tournament winning? No

And most armies will not be gunlines. Guard will continue to be a very successful gunline as did Tau get a boost, but overall the recent FAQ changes have just make Turn 1 Alpha strike not so easy.
Turn 2 Alpha strike is still very much a thing and aside from MAYBE Guard, I can't think of a single gunline army that can consistently wipe all enemies of all kinds off the board in first turn only.
Especially since -1 to hit army traits are still a thing.

-

You realize right gunline doesn't need to wipe out army turn 1 to win the game? With changes they have 2-3 turns of shooting before h2h units starts to make their presence felt.

If gunline needed 1 turn to win enemy h2h armies wouldn't have had any chance in many games due to gunline getting 2 turns of shooting.

 Eldarain wrote:
What buffed Devs?

Cherubs allow you to shoot again with flak missiles and hellfire shells.

Meaning that we are going to see a lot of SM lists with min dev squads armed just with one HB or one ML, so you can put 2 bolts or missiles at 2+(1+ against flyers) that inflict each d3MW . They are really really good, hard to shutdown, cheap, high burst and if you have enough CP they can keep on pouring MW during the game. Will be a staple of every SM gunline and a big problem for stuff like dark reapers.

RG will still be outshot by AM, Tau and whatnot.

How do we get outshot by tau and IG? They will be hitting us on 5+. So basically orks...

Because marine firepower is that bad due to a tiny model count.

 Thrst77 wrote:
How do we get outshot by tau and IG? They will be hitting us on 5+. So basically orks...

It probably has something to do with insane amount of cheap firepower.

So, I think Raven Guard is a strong choice for a T1 deployed firebase... if you are worried about guard being the terror of your meta then making them hit T7 and T8 vehicles on 5's is a pretty good outcome.

SftS can then be used aggressively if you get first turn, or defensively if you don't.

I would augment this with high mobility characters - Custodes Shield Captains, Slamguinius types - and/or punchy deep strike.


Raven Guard Battalion

Captain on Bike
Lieutenant

Scouts
Scouts
Tac squad with plas/combi plas

Vanguard Vets x 2

Inceptors

Heavy Bolter Dev Squad
Lascannon Dev Squad
Stalker (I know, but... quite cheap, T8 and 6 S7 shots hitting on 2's against fly)

3 Razorbacks, flavour to suit your taste/what fits

Adeptus Custodes SupCom

3 Shield Captains on Dawneagles.


I am aware I have not discovered some incredible new list design here!!! It's pretty standard. Would resist T1 gunlines well though.

 Primark G wrote:
Ultramarines are the most competitive since their CT is basically the keyword Fly. What I have seen of RG is that SftS is basically making it that much faster to be destroyed.

It's the worst tactic IMO. In 15 games or more I have used the tactic approximately 1 time. It is a situational bonus at best. The only reason to play Ultra marines is Guilliman or other special characters - it is essentially a no chapter tactic army. Falling back and shooting at -1 with a few infantry squads a game (which is very unlikely to ever happen because anything assaulting marines is just going to kill them). Useless for dreads which will be -2 to hit when using it. Marines are now on the shelf (I'm not going to paint them black to use them)

Ravengaurd is obviosuly the best tactic
IF and Salamanders tactics are about even for offensive boost - both superior to Ultra marines because they actually do something in every game.
Whitescars would be great if we has any decent assault units (but we dont)
BT would be great if we had any decent assault units(but we dont)

So in light of the actual topic. Ravengaurd got a big buff. Spamming batallions now produces buku command points to infiltrate a huge force. They are now one of the only armies that can get powerful units in range to do damage turn 1 too.

Their stratagem + chapter tactic works wonders for the best units in the codex. (hellblasters/agressors/Devestators/venerable lasmissle dreads)

It's not actually a gun line. More likely you are spreading everything all over the middle of the table in cover. I think it can actually be competitive.

If you're taking 2 Dev squads, one 4xHB one 4xLC, why not do 2xHB 2xLC in both squads? That way, you can decide which you want to lose first, HB or LC, instead of the enemy?