Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 dogma wrote:
You lead with "citation needed", and are following with a personal attack; why?

I led with "citation needed" because you made a claim that directly contradicts multiple canon sources, providing no higher canon sources of your own to back up the claim. According to multiple canon sources, including an explicit statement from the person whose job is to determine what is and isn't canon, the object in question is the Star Wars galaxy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dogma wrote:
Yavin is inside the prime Star Wars galaxy, so is Hoth., so is Tatooine. They're all in the amorphous thing called the Outer Rim.

And note that travel time to get to this meeting point outside the galaxy was so short that they didn't bother trying to get Luke to a local hospital to deal with a major injury, they took him straight to the rebel fleet.

Sorry Peregrine, that is not a galaxy. You can see the stars from the backdrop through the fields surrounding the central glow.

It's a matt image added to green screen. But it represents a galaxy.

Peregrine refuses to accept that startrek ships are capable of fighting at warp speed. Citing times they aren't fighting at warp speed - ignoring all the times they are.

Plus, there's no advantage to fighting at Warp speed when the enemy does exactly the same and can track you. There is when that no longer applies.

 Orlanth wrote:
It's a matt image added to green screen. But it represents a galaxy.

Star Wars lasers aren't lasers because they don't look/perform like lasers, even though they're called lasers. That Star Wars galaxy is a galaxy even though it doesn't look/perform like a galaxy, because it's called a galaxy. You can't have it both ways.

That's why I detest these SWvST debates.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Serious point of reference.

Star Wars Turbolasers, despite their monicker, are [i)not[/i] laser weapons as we understand them. It’s a misnomer, as in ‘less than 12 parsecs’ is confusing a unit of time for a unit of distance (well, until Solo arguably clears it up in a few weeks time).

Star Wars blasters and turbolasers are plasma Weapons. Not lasers. Turbolasers double charge said plasma. And Turbolasers can fire every two seconds. An ISD carries 60 batteries of Turbolasers. And they go about in capital ship squadrons of four....

So far as I can tell, those weapons are comparative to Romulan. Klingon and Ferengi Disruptors.

Seriously. How long will any Federation ship stand up to such a barrage?

I don't think federation ships would do well getting hit with 60+ plasma weapons repeatably - though startrek shields seem superior to starwars shields in that they actually seem to do something. Supposedly an Xwing has shields right? However - a twin laser cannon from a tie fighter seems to cause catatrophic damage every time with a single hit (unless it just knocks out a stabilizer). In strektrek though - small craft that have shields (runabouts/shuttles) are able to repel firepower from much larger ships - for quite a long time. I am forced to use such a weak reference but starwars warships rarely ever fight (yet they are supposed to have have 100 weapons systems in fluff - never actually mentioned in film once)

 Peregrine wrote:

I led with "citation needed" because you made a claim that directly contradicts multiple canon sources, providing no higher canon sources of your own to back up the claim. According to multiple canon sources, including an explicit statement from the person whose job is to determine what is and isn't canon, the object in question is the Star Wars galaxy.

What is "higher cannon"? When was that statement made, and by whom?

 Orlanth wrote:
It's a matt image added to green screen. But it represents a galaxy.

So in otherwords, Peregrine requires photographic proof of an event while claiming that photographic evidence presented by himself doesn't actually represent what he's claiming?

 dogma wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

And in the original series the Rebel fleet was based clear outside the galaxy - indeed, several times the width of the galaxy outside the galaxy - and regular travel back and forth is implied. You just can't do that unless you've got a REALLY good hyperspace drive. Just climbing out of the gravity well of the galaxy is an impressive feat.

Yavin is inside the prime Star Wars galaxy, so is Hoth., so is Tatooine. They're all in the amorphous thing called the Outer Rim.

Rewatch the end of The Empire Strikes Back. That's where the actual FLEET was, as opposed to a ground-base of X-Wings, or the Rebel Army.

 Vulcan wrote:

In contrast, it takes even the Ultrawarp Enterprise-D months just to cross te Federation, which itself is only a small portion of it's galaxy...

A large portion of the Star Wars Galaxy is classified as "Unknown Regions" because hyperspace explorers don't want to go there.

Considerably less than half. In contrast the Federation is a small part of one arm of the galaxy.

And yes, it's 'unknown', but how long did it take Rey to travel deep into it to find Luke? Days, at most.

For that matter... when they get the missing piece of the map to Luke, it clearly shows a map of A GALAXY, and the route to Luke covers over a third the diameter of it, maybe even half.


For those arguing about the destructive power of ST weapons vs. SW weapons. We actually have a good benchmark of both. Both are used, in canon, to destroy an asteroid in one shot on screen. In ST it happened in the wormhole mishap during the (first) Motion Picture. During SW it happens repeatedly in the Hoth asteroid field.

We can argue all day long about relative sizes of asteroids, but it's clear that the asteroid in ST is big enough to destroy the Enterprise... which puts it in roughly the same order of magnitude as the asteroids shown being vaporized by Imperial guns. Much smaller relative to an ISD, yes, but then so is the NCC-1701(R).

Are more powerful weapons developed and used through TNG, DS9, and Voyager? Yes. But they're never THAT much more powerful that they're insta-kills against comparable starships. Barring the 'Best of Both Worlds' Enterprise Wave Motion Gun, anyway... and that existed only in an alternate timeline. So we have a definite benchmark for photon torpedoes and (at the very least) the main battery of an ISD having similar destructive power. (If the shots show in ESB are the secondary batteries, the Feds are in real trouble...)

We can also start to evaluate the effectiveness of SW shields from this, as ships on both sides stand up to that level of firepower quite well except at point-blank range.

The WEG stats of 80-odd heavy turbolaser main batteries on an ISD is an obvious error. Both technical drawings and screenshots quite clearly show 16 main guns emplaced on the ISD. This is in the form of four twin turrets on either side of the superstructure, similar to the weapon placement on the Clone-War-era Venator class. Technical drawings say the rear turret on each side is paired heavy ion cannon, and the other six turrets are paired heavy turbolasers. Then there's a heavy secondary battery (where 80-odd is a believable number) scattered around. Sadly lacking is any sort of point defense battery, which is why three Y-Wings take an ISD down in Rogue One...

So, while the Enterprise(R) is shooting at the ISD with six phasers and two photon torpedoes, the ISD is returning fire with 12 heavy turbolasers (call it the equivalent of 6 photon torpedoes) and 60ish secondary guns (let's be generous and say ten secondary lasers is the equivalent of a phaser, so 60=6 phasers)... and is inflicting more damage that it's taking.

And yes, X-wings and TIE fighters have pretty heavy firepower for their size. It's even worse for the target when you realize it's shooting from within their shield perimeter... which is a mission SW pilots train for and ST helmsmen (aside from the Defiant) do not.

AndrewC wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
It's a matt image added to green screen. But it represents a galaxy.

So in otherwords, Peregrine requires photographic proof of an event while claiming that photographic evidence presented by himself doesn't actually represent what he's claiming?

No that isnt what happened, reread it.

Xenomancers wrote:Peregrine refuses to accept that startrek ships are capable of fighting at warp speed. Citing times they aren't fighting at warp speed - ignoring all the times they are.

What relevance does the fact that ST ships can fight each other at warp speed have? The Empire doesnt have warp technology. Are their any examples of ships at warp attacking ships at sublight speeds? I cant think of any, for example in Nemisis the Romulan ship attacks the Enterprise when they are both at warp but as soon as the Enterprise goes sublight so does the Romulan. Are there any examples to the contrary?

Which is the ultimate point. Yes, we see ST ships fighting at warp speeds. We see it a lot. What we NEVER see are ships at warp speed firing at targets that are NOT at warp speed...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How did I miss this, last time around?

 dogma wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
In the meantime the Feds STILL don't know which galaxy to search to find Kuat Drive Yards...

It's based on Kuat, in the core worlds. It isn't hard to find, it's shipyard forms an artificial planetary ring with enough mass for AT-ATs to walk on it, and I imagine there's a ton of communications traffic.

Sure, once they reach the SW galaxy it won't be too hard to find.

Out of the thousands of galaxies visible to the Federation, WHICH ONE HAS KUAT IN IT? And more to the point, how does the Federation get there in less than a millennia?

 Vulcan wrote:

Out of the thousands of galaxies visible to the Federation, WHICH ONE HAS KUAT IN IT? And more to the point, how does the Federation get there in less than a millennia?

*sigh*
AGAIN, any SWvST debate assumes that something (wormhole(s), etc.) creates a viable connection between the two in their respective time periods. Otherwise, it simply doesn't work at all due to the words "A long time ago...".

Warp attacking sublight happens quite a bit more than warp attacking warp in startrek. Usually it's an installation or something.

There are also subspace weapons. If it came down to it - the federation could always summon a massive subspace wave and destroy their planets one at a time. All without ever leaving warp.

Which is to also assume that would even be necessary. Startrek ships seem to have much higher effective range and they specialize at destroying many small unshielded targets - making tie fighters worthless (because phaser banks can be splitfired against many small targets extremely accurately [pretty hard to miss with a raking laser beam using an advance targeting computer]). Plus another thing - the federations most notable talent is improvising a strategy when outmatched by an opponent. Say the empire alpha struck really hard - it wouldn't be long until the federation figured out how to counter this hyperdrive and destroy a system strategy from the empire. Literally - the only leverage they have is essentially instant teleportation of their entire fleets. A little insane they have such a powerful travel ability but still use manned fighters with hull mounted lasers. Which just goes to show you how silly this question really is. Startrek (thought still very unrealistic) at least attempts realism. Starwars is basically magic by comparison.

 Vulcan wrote:

Sure, once they reach the SW galaxy it won't be too hard to find.

Why is The Federation going to a galaxy far, far away?

 Vulcan wrote:

Out of the thousands of galaxies visible to the Federation, WHICH ONE HAS KUAT IN IT? And more to the point, how does the Federation get there in less than a millennia?

The one that The Federation is presumably going to. The point of this argument is that The Empire and The Federation can find one another and fight.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dogma wrote:
Cannon has it as a "protostar".

{citation needed}

On screen it's clearly a galaxy, the script says it's a galaxy, the novelization says that it's a galaxy, and the person in charge of deciding Star Wars canon explicitly said that it is the Star Wars galaxy.

On screen it is clearly a star and solar system in formation. There is no evidence of stars within the debris rings (they would be glowing due to the light output of the stars in the bands if it were a galaxy).

For reference, this is what Andromeda looks like from a ground-based telescope here on Earth:

I hope you won't seriously try to argue that a ship sitting in intergalactic space (which is still dotted with stars for some reason), can see less detail in the galaxy it is next to than a telescope looking through the atmosphere of a planet at an object over 2.5million light years away.

 Xenomancers wrote:
[pretty hard to miss with a raking laser beam using an advance targeting computer]

And yet Star Trek ships often miss very easy targets. Do I need to post the video again?

Plus another thing - the federations most notable talent is improvising a strategy when outmatched by an opponent. Say the empire alpha struck really hard - it wouldn't be long until the federation figured out how to counter this hyperdrive and destroy a system strategy from the empire.

First of all, it doesn't matter how smart you are if you're outgunned by orders of magnitude. Star Trek weapons likely can't even damage a star destroyer if it just passively sits there taking damage, and even the smallest Star Wars fighter-scale weapons are a serious threat to a Star Trek capital ship. It's like playing a game of 40k with a single tactical marine against a 50,000 point army. It doesn't matter how clever you are, you're going to lose as soon as your opponent declares an attack and rolls dice.

Second, the Federation does not have time to figure out a counter. Within hours of the war beginning every single Federation planet will be a lifeless ball of ash, and every Federation citizen not on a starship in deep space will be dead. The absolute best possible response the survivors can make after the opening few hours, even granting them the ability to magically improve their firepower/defense numbers to the point that they can hurt the Imperial fleet, would be to kill some star destroyers out of petty revenge before their supplies run out and they join the rest of the Federation in the afterlife. The only way the Federation survives more than a few hours is through immediate unconditional surrender, being absorbed into the Empire as the price of avoiding a massacre.

Startrek (thought still very unrealistic) at least attempts realism.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA. JFC no. Nothing about Star Trek is at all realistic. Having technobabble instead of religious nonsense is not realism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:
What is "higher cannon"? When was that statement made, and by whom?

Higher canon is the script for ESB:

Luke wriggles his fingers, makes a fist, and relaxes it.
His hand is completely functional.
He gets up and walks over to Leia. There is a new bond
between them, a new understanding. Leia is thinking about
Han; Luke is thinking about his uncertain and newly
complicated future. Together they stand at the large window
of the medical center looking out on the Rebel Star Cruiser
and a dense, luminous galaxy swirling in space. Luke puts
his arm around Leia. The droids stand next to them, and
Threepio moves closer to Artoo putting his arm on him. The
group watches as the Millennium Falcon moves into view,
makes a turn, and zooms away into space.

Higher canon is also the person in charge of determining what is and isn't canon making an explicit statement that the object in question is the Star Wars galaxy:

Q. what is the official explanation for the end of ESB when the main characters appear to be looking at the galaxy from a distance?

LC: Since that image (or one similiar from AOTC) has been used as the backdrop for published galaxy maps, I think it is pretty clear that it is the galaxy that you are seeing.

This is indisputable fact, like it or not. The rebel fleet's rendezvous point is located far outside the galaxy, and the rebel ships were able to get there in a very short time. Star Wars travel speeds are vastly faster than anything Star Trek is capable of.

Do we ever get a description of how big the Star Wars galaxy is?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do we ever get a description of how big the Star Wars galaxy is?

Nope - could be a dwarf galaxy for all we know but even in such a case - hyperspace is so many magnitudes faster than warp it's not even worth addressing. From the looks of the galaxy in the above image it appears to be a standard sprial galaxy (which gives us a basis for it's size) it should be similar in size to the milky way.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
[pretty hard to miss with a raking laser beam using an advance targeting computer]

And yet Star Trek ships often miss very easy targets. Do I need to post the video again?

Plus another thing - the federations most notable talent is improvising a strategy when outmatched by an opponent. Say the empire alpha struck really hard - it wouldn't be long until the federation figured out how to counter this hyperdrive and destroy a system strategy from the empire.

First of all, it doesn't matter how smart you are if you're outgunned by orders of magnitude. Star Trek weapons likely can't even damage a star destroyer if it just passively sits there taking damage, and even the smallest Star Wars fighter-scale weapons are a serious threat to a Star Trek capital ship. It's like playing a game of 40k with a single tactical marine against a 50,000 point army. It doesn't matter how clever you are, you're going to lose as soon as your opponent declares an attack and rolls dice.

Second, the Federation does not have time to figure out a counter. Within hours of the war beginning every single Federation planet will be a lifeless ball of ash, and every Federation citizen not on a starship in deep space will be dead. The absolute best possible response the survivors can make after the opening few hours, even granting them the ability to magically improve their firepower/defense numbers to the point that they can hurt the Imperial fleet, would be to kill some star destroyers out of petty revenge before their supplies run out and they join the rest of the Federation in the afterlife. The only way the Federation survives more than a few hours is through immediate unconditional surrender, being absorbed into the Empire as the price of avoiding a massacre.

Startrek (thought still very unrealistic) at least attempts realism.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA. JFC no. Nothing about Star Trek is at all realistic. Having technobabble instead of religious nonsense is not realism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:
What is "higher cannon"? When was that statement made, and by whom?

Higher canon is the script for ESB:

Luke wriggles his fingers, makes a fist, and relaxes it.
His hand is completely functional.
He gets up and walks over to Leia. There is a new bond
between them, a new understanding. Leia is thinking about
Han; Luke is thinking about his uncertain and newly
complicated future. Together they stand at the large window
of the medical center looking out on the Rebel Star Cruiser
and a dense, luminous galaxy swirling in space. Luke puts
his arm around Leia. The droids stand next to them, and
Threepio moves closer to Artoo putting his arm on him. The
group watches as the Millennium Falcon moves into view,
makes a turn, and zooms away into space.

Higher canon is also the person in charge of determining what is and isn't canon making an explicit statement that the object in question is the Star Wars galaxy:

Q. what is the official explanation for the end of ESB when the main characters appear to be looking at the galaxy from a distance?

LC: Since that image (or one similiar from AOTC) has been used as the backdrop for published galaxy maps, I think it is pretty clear that it is the galaxy that you are seeing.

This is indisputable fact, like it or not. The rebel fleet's rendezvous point is located far outside the galaxy, and the rebel ships were able to get there in a very short time. Star Wars travel speeds are vastly faster than anything Star Trek is capable of.

Wow - if the empire is that strong. Kind of interesting that they were defeated by a rag tag group of rebels with like 3 cruisers and 100 fighter craft. It's also begs the question - why even build a deathstar if they are already capable of doing a coordinated strike against 1000 heavily defended planets simultaneously - they aren't. Plus in the starwars universe they have practically 0 resistance - in startrek universe - they'd be fighting ships they can't even see or even track with their weapons.

BTW - heres some film that includes everything you are denying. The second scene shows a galaxy class destroying 6 ships (much larger than fighters + they have shields) with 2 heavy phaser banks (it's got 4 of these) in about 2 seconds. It also shows the galaxy fighting at warp speed + gives you reference to it's combat power. Notice how it actually engages enemy ships instead of standing off - out of weapons range like a carrier does (kind of like all warships in starwars do).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds

Also - here's a video just for everyones enjoyment. Which also shows the scale of startrek combat and the maneuverability of it's ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPZZrM3Pmww&t=4s

I think it should also be pointed out that the Federation would easily gain the aid of any anti-Imperial factions within the galactic Empire (which on their own have been shown in universe to be capable of defeating the Empire). A cloaked vessel could scout the Empire whilst contacting rebel groups for information and access to imperial technology in exchange for information, technology and a promise to allow them to set up a democratic government after the war was won. Think of how much more effective the rebel alliance could have been with transporter technology, for example.

In contrast, the Galactic Empire would have a hard time getting any support for their cause from any of the major players in the Star Trek universe. The Federation would consider them tyrants, the Klingons would view any attack on them or subjugation to a foreign emperor as a grave insult to the honour of the Klingon empire, the Romulans wouldn't ally with what they consider an inferior race, the Vulcans wouldn't agree with the Empires logic etc.

Hearts and minds, folks, hearts and minds.

Wow - if the empire is that strong. Kind of interesting that they were defeated by a rag tag group of rebels with like 3 cruisers and 100 fighter craft. It's also begs the question - why even build a deathstar if they are already capable of doing a coordinated strike against 1000 heavily defended planets simultaneously - they aren't. Plus in the starwars universe they have practically 0 resistance - in startrek universe - they'd be fighting ships they can't even see or even track with their weapons.

Because it was a weapon that was built to destroy planets.. It wasn't meant to be practical, it wasn't meant to be used in a sensible manner as it was a weapon of terror to inspire fear against those that would rebel. If they decided to harbor Rebels.. Well, goodbye planet. Now the main thing is that a few star destroyers are able to create a rapid rate of bombardment upon a concentrated zone on a planet from full orbit with this for example. In general there are a few issues with such.. Though I really would not call many federation planets "Heavily Defended". The issue is that they could pop in, bombard cities and get out once they feel support may arrive.

Funny how the lasers are effective at that range - in TLJ their super dreadnaught destroyer thing's shots were bouncing off the Mon Cal for about 2 hours of continuous bombardment. True - not every planet in the federation is heavily defended - the important ones are. They have to be ready for surprise romulan invasion

I find things make better sense when you just ignore TLJ entirely considering how many issues it's brought up with standard canon, just like one doesn't take Abram's movies into account with Star Trek as a whole.

 Peregrine wrote:

Higher canon is the script for ESB:

Luke wriggles his fingers, makes a fist, and relaxes it.
His hand is completely functional.
He gets up and walks over to Leia. There is a new bond
between them, a new understanding. Leia is thinking about
Han; Luke is thinking about his uncertain and newly
complicated future. Together they stand at the large window
of the medical center looking out on the Rebel Star Cruiser
and a dense, luminous galaxy swirling in space. Luke puts
his arm around Leia. The droids stand next to them, and
Threepio moves closer to Artoo putting his arm on him. The
group watches as the Millennium Falcon moves into view,
makes a turn, and zooms away into space.

Higher canon is also the person in charge of determining what is and isn't canon making an explicit statement that the object in question is the Star Wars galaxy:

Q. what is the official explanation for the end of ESB when the main characters appear to be looking at the galaxy from a distance?

LC: Since that image (or one similiar from AOTC) has been used as the backdrop for published galaxy maps, I think it is pretty clear that it is the galaxy that you are seeing.

This is indisputable fact, like it or not. The rebel fleet's rendezvous point is located far outside the galaxy, and the rebel ships were able to get there in a very short time. Star Wars travel speeds are vastly faster than anything Star Trek is capable of.

So now you're backtracking and saying that if it's written down then its acceptable? Please pick a line and stick to it. Either A everything put forward in evidence must be in visual format ie the movies/series or B written descriptions are acceptable as evidence despite visual evidence contradicting? You can't have it both ways.

Cheers

Andrew

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I find things make better sense when you just ignore TLJ entirely considering how many issues it's brought up with standard canon, just like one doesn't take Abram's movies into account with Star Trek as a whole.

I'd like to imagine it didn't happen but it did. I really don't see it being retconned. It's cannon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Wow - if the empire is that strong. Kind of interesting that they were defeated by a rag tag group of rebels with like 3 cruisers and 100 fighter craft.

Those rebels were using Star Wars technology, and able to fight at a 1:1 ratio with the Empire when they picked their fights correctly, even if their total numbers were lower. Star Trek doesn't have this advantage.

It's also begs the question - why even build a deathstar if they are already capable of doing a coordinated strike against 1000 heavily defended planets simultaneously - they aren't.

Because the death star is a terror weapon. It instantly destroys a planet, no matter how well defended it is. Planetary shields can hold off a bombardment for a long time, and even when the defenses are down the orbital bombardment still leaves a ruined planet behind. The death star says "nope" to all of that and turns the planet to dust with a single shot.

And Star Trek planets are not defended by Star Wars standards. Nothing they have will even delay the deaths of their planets.

BTW - heres some film that includes everything you are denying. The second scene shows a galaxy class destroying 6 ships (much larger than fighters + they have shields) with 2 heavy phaser banks (it's got 4 of these) in about 2 seconds. It also shows the galaxy fighting at warp speed + gives you reference to it's combat power. Notice how it actually engages enemy ships instead of standing off - out of weapons range like a carrier does (kind of like all warships in starwars do).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds

Might want to watch at 30 seconds in your own video, where the Galaxy misses a capital ship (which is barely moving) at point blank range. Or all the times in your video where the ships appear to be a few hundred feet apart and barely moving, casting serious doubt on your claims of extreme maneuverability and FTL combat.

Also - here's a video just for everyones enjoyment. Which also shows the scale of startrek combat and the maneuverability of it's ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPZZrM3Pmww&t=4s

So, slow sublight speeds, maneuverability that is barely better than a star destroyer, and ranges on the level of "reach out the window and touch them". Why do you feel that this is impressive?

Perigune you are off your rocker man. The defiant flying through enemy formations while dodging incoming fire and doing 360s around enemy ships is not star destroyer manuverability. Star destroyers have a had time not running into each other they are so unmanuverable...They also have trouble shooting down tiny Corelian frieghters.

Like I said - not even a match for federation ships straight up. If in the event they were outmatch - they could just utilize warp hit and run attacks.

You have any video evidence of Star destroyers being manuverable? You don't have to answer - I know the the answer.

Since I'm not familiar how many different types of ship does the Federation have? I know everyone loves to just use the standard ISD 1 and 2, TIE fighters, and Bombers from the scene but general canon has far more different types of ships for the Empire. ISD's shots against smaller ships are because they are meant to be shooting other capital ships. They've got a contingent of TIE's and smaller shots for better tracking of smaller ships. Not counting the Tector class which had no hanger.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Out of the thousands of galaxies visible to the Federation, WHICH ONE HAS KUAT IN IT? And more to the point, how does the Federation get there in less than a millennia?

*sigh*
AGAIN, any SWvST debate assumes that something (wormhole(s), etc.) creates a viable connection between the two in their respective time periods. Otherwise, it simply doesn't work at all due to the words "A long time ago...".

Which, as I pointed out, makes the Imperial conquest of Federation space quite easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

Sure, once they reach the SW galaxy it won't be too hard to find.

Why is The Federation going to a galaxy far, far away?

 Vulcan wrote:

Out of the thousands of galaxies visible to the Federation, WHICH ONE HAS KUAT IN IT? And more to the point, how does the Federation get there in less than a millennia?

The one that The Federation is presumably going to. The point of this argument is that The Empire and The Federation can find one another and fight.

The problem with that is, the Empire might trip over the Federation in the course of intergalactic exploration, which they can do because their ships are that fast.

Since the Federation ships are NOT that fast, they will not be tripping over the Empire in the course of THEIR intergalactic exploration. They can't even follow the Imperial ships a fraction of the distance to their home galaxy before the Imperial ships race out of sensor range.

When your enemy can attack your home systems, and you can't attack theirs, that's a decisive advantage. That's why Japan lost WWII, they couldn't touch America's industrial capacity while America outright leveled theirs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 dogma wrote:
Cannon has it as a "protostar".

{citation needed}

On screen it's clearly a galaxy, the script says it's a galaxy, the novelization says that it's a galaxy, and the person in charge of deciding Star Wars canon explicitly said that it is the Star Wars galaxy.

On screen it is clearly a star and solar system in formation. There is no evidence of stars within the debris rings (they would be glowing due to the light output of the stars in the bands if it were a galaxy).

For reference, this is what Andromeda looks like from a ground-based telescope here on Earth:

I hope you won't seriously try to argue that a ship sitting in intergalactic space (which is still dotted with stars for some reason), can see less detail in the galaxy it is next to than a telescope looking through the atmosphere of a planet at an object over 2.5million light years away.

They look similar enough to me.

Now, consider that picture again. See how there are stars in it, just like there are stars visible in the ESB footage? That tells us the viewpoint for that galaxy is within another galaxy. Therefore the Rebel fleet is hiding in a small satellite galaxy of the main SW galaxy. I imagine the view of the Milky Way would be similar if seen from the Magellenic Cloud (either of them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I think it should also be pointed out that the Federation would easily gain the aid of any anti-Imperial factions within the galactic Empire (which on their own have been shown in universe to be capable of defeating the Empire). A cloaked vessel could scout the Empire whilst contacting rebel groups for information and access to imperial technology in exchange for information, technology and a promise to allow them to set up a democratic government after the war was won. Think of how much more effective the rebel alliance could have been with transporter technology, for example.

When the cloaked ship finally reaches the Imperial galaxy some thousands of years later, sure.

In contrast, the Galactic Empire would have a hard time getting any support for their cause from any of the major players in the Star Trek universe. The Federation would consider them tyrants, the Klingons would view any attack on them or subjugation to a foreign emperor as a grave insult to the honour of the Klingon empire, the Romulans wouldn't ally with what they consider an inferior race, the Vulcans wouldn't agree with the Empires logic etc.

Hearts and minds, folks, hearts and minds.

You don't suppose Palpatine might have had to deal with similar cultures in the SW galaxy during his tenure as Chanccellor, do you? You don't suppose he managed to bring the vast majority of them around to his viewpoint and get them to democratically vote him in as Emperor by a landslide, do you?