Battletech (PC) - Heavy Metal expansion released (p21)

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**Talizvar**

I figure we have on the planet we live on now:

How we look:

Spoiler:

Religion:
Will boil it down to some 20 largest religions.

Spoiler:

Politics:

Spoiler:

One would think with thousands of worlds to choose from, humanity would be as diverse as snowflakes in the Battletech universe, if not more-so.

I guess I am trying to say that leaning on any kind of existing trope other than "X person is too different from me" is a rather large lack of creativity by writers.
I guess I feel like the character types picked for Battletech is to similar in the reasoning why the cast were picked for Original Star Trek for that time.

This is supposed to be akin to "Game of Thrones" in space: we do not care what the heck you look like or your religious beliefs, who do you support politically?
Funny how that is easily the largest list we can create: an ideal to gather around has always given more reasons for differentiating ourselves.

**Orlanth**

Talizvar wrote:
I figure we have on the planet we live on now:

In the 31st century. Terra has more nation states on it than there are recognised multi-system powers. While a lot of the land is under a single world government there are multiple semi-independent principalities. Even Amaris left them to their self governance. Bhutan I think is one.

There are more languages spoken on Terra than the rest of human space combined.

There are more religions on Terra than the rest of human space combined.

There are primitive catalogued but otherwise uncontacted tribes kept in human zoo regions persiting through the Battletech timeline. IIRC a lot of the Amazon is sealed against all travel by law, and cannot be overflown but sub-orbital flight, for the benefit of the remaining primitive tribes. Terra is a unique case on so many levels.

but then so is the Sol sytem. There are semi terraformed and terraformed worlds in the Solar System, Vunus is breathable and the Venusian sun shade is the largest feat of engineering by humans in the canon. The Sol system is inhabited as far out as the trans Pluto orbit, with rumours of secret installations in the Oort cloud. Though most Belters live out no further than the Saturnian system, and most live a lot closer.

In canon there is little to nothing to assume about the simpler organised and comprised systems and nation states from what we can learn for 31st century Sol system.

**flamingkillamajig**

Voss wrote:
Er, Taurians aren't rednecks. They have the best educational system in the entire inner sphere, bar none, they just don't have the industry or resources to exploit it. And the most democratic government and largely the best standard of living for average citizens.

Canopus is a mixed bag, with problems with corruption, crime and poor education- they're pretty far from a matriarchal utopia. Someone just checked a box back in the 80s and made one of the dozen periphery states a matriarchy.

Taurians sound kinda like america or at least with some things. We spend the most on education (not sure of the quality though). We have a lot of resources and military and industry though our work is getting exported. Best standard of living does seem to check a box right there though may be debatable. We are up there though in quality of living. Don't think we're the most democratic but we're more so than a lot of countries.

Honestly the fact Taurians sounded like Space 'Murica to an extent is why i chose them for my origins story. I was looking at Federated Suns but then saw they're a monarchy that used to be a democracy and sorta screwed up some stuff. Why do they fight with Taurians so much? Is it just because they're both powerful nations with a shared border? You'd think there are far more different ideologies they'd hate more. Let's be real here though. Democracy is just popular vote of the people so based on different regions the majority population may have very, very differing views. In that respect a democracy in the middle east may vote very differently to a western democracy. The same goes for any region even in the same country.

So....Canopus is Detroit?

**Orlanth**

Canopus is probably a cross between California and Ancient Babylon. There arent too many direct analogies.

**dogma**

flamingkillamajig wrote:

Honestly the fact Taurians sounded like Space 'Murica to an extent is why i chose them for my origins story. I was looking at Federated Suns but then saw they're a monarchy that used to be a democracy and sorta screwed up some stuff.

The Taurian Concordat is a constitutional monarchy...think the UK, or Sweden. There's a monarch, but they don't really do much in terms of actually running the domain. Unless they can leverage the threat of war, real or imagined, in order to seize more power.

But honestly, the vibe I get from the Taurians is space Canada + potential dictator.

**flamingkillamajig**

Orlanth wrote:
Canopus is probably a cross between California and Ancient Babylon. There arent too many direct analogies.

Ugh i'm already uninterested in a place like that. I don't know enough about ancient babylon other than the fact it was culturally significant and possibly had a lot of different cultures in it.

I will say the very least this game has done for me is make me interested in the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe. That said even the crappy cartoon from decades ago made me interested.

**Miguelsan**

Then come and join the Dark Side! We got cookies and a starter box coming soon.

M.

**flamingkillamajig**

I heard battletech was a LOT more fan-friendly than 40k but i dunno if there are enough people that play nearby.

**H.B.M.C.**

What do you mean by "fan friendly"?

**Elemental**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I did notice that every time you have to rescue/recover/find someone it's a 'she'. Thought that was odd.

Would it have stuck out to you if it had defaulted to "he"?

**ChargerIIC**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
flamingkillamajig wrote:
I enjoy the game and all but i can't help but be bothered almost every random person in a random mission is referred to as 'her', the beginning allows 'he', 'she' or 'them' (who wants to be called them?), the main 'good guy' faction that helps lady arano is a 'feminist matriarchal utopia' the writers have nothing bad to say about and a character has a certain religion and wears a headscarf a thousand years from now in a fictional universe and just i dunno it pushes so many things all at once.

I did notice that every time you have to rescue/recover/find someone it's a 'she'. Thought that was odd.

That might be configmration bias. The industrial researcher and captured liao noble are she's but the double agent and research spy that gets captured are 'hes'.

Strangely, BT does have a larger number of named female researchers than male ones. I suspect this was because most of the main character pilots were male and researchers tended to serve as love interests (I'm looking at you Kai. And you Thomas. Victor is a lush by any stretch, but he counts too)

**flamingkillamajig**

Elemental wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

I did notice that every time you have to rescue/recover/find someone it's a 'she'. Thought that was odd.

Would it have stuck out to you if it had defaulted to "he"?

Not too much but it feels like over-compensating in the other direction. If people only using 'he' are bad then people only using 'she' are bad. It's two extremes.

Also let's be honest a lot of nerd tabletop games are overwhelmingly male. Video games are a bit different. I have noticed the majority of girls (which aren't tom boys) play rpgs or jrpgs, fire emblem (for some strange reason), the sims, a lot of nintendo games (and i mean a LOT) and some play some action games. Strategy has a ridiculously low amount of girls far as i notice. I dunno why it's so low but it is. The main character in strategy games don't even tend to have a gender. I could be an amorphous blob for all we know in the game world. As far as the girls that play FPS murder baths or strategy games they tend to be tom boys. It just makes sense. It's like saying girls that play sports, lift weights and watch violent movies tend to be tom boys.

Anyway my point with this is in games like 40k and maybe to a lesser extent battletech the male to female ratio seems to be pretty wide. Didn't we have a dakka poll with 10 to 11 people that identified as male vs 1 identifying as female (or was this just 40k dakka players)? This was a fairly big poll if i remember too.

I'm not even saying you can't change a game to be more interesting to other groups of people but that might result in alienating the original fan-base esp. hardcore fans. I mean any big fan-base like star wars, lord of the rings, ghostbusters, etc. can be very crazy with their hardcore fans. Of course sports has people painting their chest and causing riots when they win/lose so maybe nerd fandoms aren't that bad.

Also it would've been better if they had maybe a 50/50 swap of gender or just using 'they' sometimes for faceless and nameless random scientist recovery missions.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
What do you mean by "fan friendly"?

Supposedly the fans of Battletech loved the makers of the game or at least according to a friend. He noticed the stark contrast and was absolutely baffled when i told him about 40k before Kirby was booted.

**Disciple of Fate**

Being a tad stereotypical no? You calling them tomboys is basically a vicious circle.

As fot BT, only recently got a big patch and still no glimpses of future content. The mods are ok so far, but I would hope for something that adds replayabillity.

As for the gendering, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary at all. And as far as the Taurians go, I didn't get a space America vibe. More like enlightened dictatorship vaguely based on Western democracy with sprinkles of Roman/Greek elements from antiquity. What makes them feel like the US?

**flamingkillamajig**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Being a tad stereotypical no? You calling them tomboys is basically a vicious circle.

As fot BT, only recently got a big patch and still no glimpses of future content. The mods are ok so far, but I would hope for something that adds replayabillity.

As for the gendering, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary at all. And as far as the Taurians go, I didn't get a space America vibe. More like enlightened dictatorship vaguely based on Western democracy with sprinkles of Roman/Greek elements from antiquity. What makes them feel like the US?

It's not really that bad to say the girls that act like the majority of boys are boyish in nature. I get that maybe it's a culture thing but would forcing a culture change really be so good for the people used to the old culture? Either way people are going to be left out or behind. Should we really just crap all over the guys that act the way we used to expect guys to act and the same for girls. It bugs me more culture always is about telling us who and what to be regardless. When i was young i was told to act a certain way and now i'm told to act a certain different way. There's so much judgment and expectations. Just be you and i'll be me.

**beast_gts**

Liao just had me kill a TV star...

**ChargerIIC**

beast_gts wrote:
Liao just had me kill a TV star...

At this point I've helped depopulate a good section of Space Hollywood.

**beast_gts**

ChargerIIC wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Liao just had me kill a TV star...

At this point I've helped depopulate a good section of Space Hollywood.

I seem to be getting a lot more random events on my second play-thru, post-patch. Anyone else feel the same?

**Disciple of Fate**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Being a tad stereotypical no? You calling them tomboys is basically a vicious circle.

As fot BT, only recently got a big patch and still no glimpses of future content. The mods are ok so far, but I would hope for something that adds replayabillity.

As for the gendering, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary at all. And as far as the Taurians go, I didn't get a space America vibe. More like enlightened dictatorship vaguely based on Western democracy with sprinkles of Roman/Greek elements from antiquity. What makes them feel like the US?

It's not really that bad to say the girls that act like the majority of boys are boyish in nature. I get that maybe it's a culture thing but would forcing a culture change really be so good for the people used to the old culture? Either way people are going to be left out or behind. Should we really just crap all over the guys that act the way we used to expect guys to act and the same for girls. It bugs me more culture always is about telling us who and what to be regardless. When i was young i was told to act a certain way and now i'm told to act a certain different way. There's so much judgment and expectations. Just be you and i'll be me.

I mean its only boyish in nature because society has stereotyped it as boyish in nature. As people enjoying a hobby similarly stigmatized at times as "childish" or worse, we should try to be more aware of the harmful nature of said stereotyping. But how would this not be good for people of the old culture? Getting new blood into the hobby of strategy videogames by not stereotyping them as tomboys changes exactly zero about the hobby, nobody is going to left out or behind, if anything its more inclusive. More women that go into strategy games means more of a market and likely more games for us "old" folks. Of course, let people be people, but calling the tomboys just for liking strategy games directly contradicts that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

beast_gts wrote:
Liao just had me kill a TV star...

What I don't get is who keeps giving TV stars big ass 'Mechs

**Gitzbitah**

You monster! They were trying to film a movie about you!

**ChargerIIC**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
flamingkillamajig wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Being a tad stereotypical no? You calling them tomboys is basically a vicious circle.

As fot BT, only recently got a big patch and still no glimpses of future content. The mods are ok so far, but I would hope for something that adds replayabillity.

As for the gendering, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary at all. And as far as the Taurians go, I didn't get a space America vibe. More like enlightened dictatorship vaguely based on Western democracy with sprinkles of Roman/Greek elements from antiquity. What makes them feel like the US?

It's not really that bad to say the girls that act like the majority of boys are boyish in nature. I get that maybe it's a culture thing but would forcing a culture change really be so good for the people used to the old culture? Either way people are going to be left out or behind. Should we really just crap all over the guys that act the way we used to expect guys to act and the same for girls. It bugs me more culture always is about telling us who and what to be regardless. When i was young i was told to act a certain way and now i'm told to act a certain different way. There's so much judgment and expectations. Just be you and i'll be me.

I mean its only boyish in nature because society has stereotyped it as boyish in nature. As people enjoying a hobby similarly stigmatized at times as "childish" or worse, we should try to be more aware of the harmful nature of said stereotyping. But how would this not be good for people of the old culture? Getting new blood into the hobby of strategy videogames by not stereotyping them as tomboys changes exactly zero about the hobby, nobody is going to left out or behind, if anything its more inclusive. More women that go into strategy games means more of a market and likely more games for us "old" folks. Of course, let people be people, but calling the tomboys just for liking strategy games directly contradicts that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

beast_gts wrote:
Liao just had me kill a TV star...

What I don't get is who keeps giving TV stars big ass 'Mechs

If you were Arnold Schwarzenegger, wouldn't you insist on received an ...Awesome

**flamingkillamajig**

ChargerIIC wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Liao just had me kill a TV star...

At this point I've helped depopulate a good section of Space Hollywood.

You're a hero.

---------

@Disciple of Fate: I'm not saying girls don't like strategy games in their entirety. I know several women that played the 'endless' series, xcom series, starcraft, Most Definitely Fire emblem (dunno why) and a couple popular games. However guys outnumber them by a lot. I get video games and tabletop games used to be more a nerd thing.

It's considered boyish because the majority of boys do said thing. It's not specifically a bad thing. I like girls that are tom-boys. Why is that considered bad to you?

As i may have said before there is an issue with the old fan base getting a re-vamp. It's needed at times but it's one of those hardcore fans vs casuals issue. If you cater too hard to casuals you alienate the hardcore. If you please only the hardcore fans then you risk elitism and no new players so a constantly decreasing and elitist fan-base.

Stereotypes have truth in them though and honestly most of the guys i know wish they could have a tom-boy/gamer girlfriend. After a point i just realized it's a waste of time or at least for me. Also there are patterns of certain behaviors. Are they an issue of culture or innate behaviors? I dunno. What i do know is forcing a culture change is definitely changing what people do.

I'm not entirely saying girls should act like boys or girls. I'm just saying some girls act more like the majority of boys. It's not even a bad thing that they do. I do get that i'm somewhat being a hypocrite but whatever.

Anyway we're getting insanely off topic. I suppose i could agree to end this debate with you if you're willing in the hopes of keeping the thread open, un-locked and on track.

----------------

I just keep thinking the TV stars are something like 'Dog the Bounty Hunter' or some Red-neck 'swamp hunters' show. That's the feel i got with it.

----------------

Can you guys tell me more about BattleTech? It seems like a worthwhile and fun work of fiction. As i said this game got me interested in the Battletech universe. Honestly i gotta say i think there should've been more than one empire with female leaders but possibly there are. I'm less fond of the whole monarchy thing but it's kinda cool. I do think that's why Taurians are the faction i like most. Taurians aren't as big into monarchy and that's what i like most.

**Disciple of Fate**

Yeah, I'm just saying that calling girls tomboys for enjoying parts of what is traditionally a boys hobby isn't that great, because all too often tomboy still carries negative connotations. Not to long ago gamers were, and to an extent still are negatively stereotyped. But how is it in any way a culture change though?

As for the gamer girlfriend thing, most women I know my age play videogames. Now that is mostly the more popular titles, but honestly people who like strategy games even in the male subsection are only a fraction of the overall group. Maybe I got lucky in the people I know in that regard. But gaming is growing steadily and more people join in every year, at least allowing the word gamer to shed the idea of "(insert bad word here) nerd who plays WoW all day in the basement."

As for Btech, there are more female leaders, the Lyrans frequently had/have a female leader. Its what happens when you have a monarchy and a 50/50 chance to have a baby of either gender. The female empire in the game is very fringe in the Btech world, you can probably read more on other female leaders on the wiki than on that whole empire.

**beast_gts**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
Can you guys tell me more about BattleTech? It seems like a worthwhile and fun work of fiction. As i said this game got me interested in the Battletech universe. Honestly i gotta say i think there should've been more than one empire with female leaders but possibly there are. I'm less fond of the whole monarchy thing but it's kinda cool. I do think that's why Taurians are the faction i like most. Taurians aren't as big into monarchy and that's what i like most.

It's been around for decades, encompasses multiple computer & tabletop games and as well as novels & a cartoon. Have a look at the BattleTechWiki.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Disciple of Fate wrote:
As for Btech, there are more female leaders, the Lyrans frequently had/have a female leader.

Yep - Katrina Steiner was Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth in 3025. Kyalla Centrella was Magestrix of the Magistracy of Canopus at the same time.

**flamingkillamajig**

Disciple of Fate wrote:

As for the gamer girlfriend thing, most women I know my age play videogames. Now that is mostly the more popular titles, but honestly people who like strategy games even in the male subsection are only a fraction of the overall group. Maybe I got lucky in the people I know in that regard. But gaming is growing steadily and more people join in every year, at least allowing the word gamer to shed the idea of "(insert bad word here) nerd who plays WoW all day in the basement."

You must have gotten lucky. I tried joining some gamer or nerd groups and guys tend to out-number them. Even when it's more balanced like 70/30 or so they just like different things. Video games are like tv or books. Maybe europe or you dutch people have it easier but where i am it's different. Perhaps if i was in a big city it'd be different as well but i'm not sure. Gamer, girl gamer or tom-boy only have a negative connotation if that's how you see it man. I like tom-boys more than all other women but they're just too high in demand as girlfriends so i stopped trying. Seriously would you believe the girl i'm trying to work up to dating hasn't even seen Lord of the Rings before i met her? I let her watch the dvds. She watches 'Game of Thrones' though.

I'm just saying what i've seen with GW the numbers are so low i even remember a black male gamer going to the bathroom and seeing a joke sign about guys putting the toilet seat back down with a sister of battle issuing threats about it to which he replied something like, "How many girl gamers even come into the store?" Keep in mind this is GW i'm talking about here and we have ridiculously low numbers of women coming into the GW unless they're moms, wives, girlfriends or some relative of a guy that plays there. There are a few tabletop gaming girls that have come to the store and one i know from ohio that visited but even according to her the store she was at maybe had 3 female players.

---------

I don't specifically want girl leaders in battle tech or a gaming universe but representation here and there even as leaders or main characters every so often isn't bad. It's just when you over-do it then it reeks of virtue signaling. Sigh. I wish for the days of when people had diversity because they felt like that's what they wanted or it was who they were and didn't try doing it for the praise. If you do a good deed only for the praise and attention you're doing it wrong. In fact it's best done when it's as inconspicuous as possible. Make someone feel welcome by joining the crowd rather than thrusting them on a podium in front of the crowd and throwing flowers at the person. That's just gonna make people hate whoever is being treated better. That doesn't make people accept you. You gain it by being like everybody else and going through their struggles too.

--------

As far as stereotypes go i know you said you hate them but aren't the dutch just normally tall compared to other people of the world? I don't fully see stereotypes as bad. I think people realize patterns and it's not exactly always a bad thing so much as a pattern. How you interpret that pattern varies but to deny patterns exist at all would do more harm than good in my eyes.

--------

This is getting off topic and i can't stop myself either so if you wish we can continue this discussion in PM's if you wish.

**H.B.M.C.**

I had to do that movie star one. I'm always wary about taking contracts from the Cappies.

Still, they like me, and don't mind that I'm 100% allied with the Davions, so I guess it's ok.

**Disciple of Fate**

flamingkillamajig wrote:

I don't specifically want girl leaders in battle tech or a gaming universe but representation here and there even as leaders or main characters every so often isn't bad. It's just when you over-do it then it reeks of virtue signaling. Sigh. I wish for the days of when people had diversity because they felt like that's what they wanted or it was who they were and didn't try doing it for the praise. If you do a good deed only for the praise and attention you're doing it wrong. In fact it's best done when it's as inconspicuous as possible. Make someone feel welcome by joining the crowd rather than thrusting them on a podium in front of the crowd and throwing flowers at the person. That's just gonna make people hate whoever is being treated better. That doesn't make people accept you. You gain it by being like everybody else and going through their struggles too.

--------

As far as stereotypes go i know you said you hate them but aren't the dutch just normally tall compared to other people of the world? I don't fully see stereotypes as bad. I think people realize patterns and it's not exactly always a bad thing so much as a pattern. How you interpret that pattern varies but to deny patterns exist at all would do more harm than good in my eyes.

Yeah sorry, I will end the tangent. Although the Dutch 'stereotype' is actually true, its not a stereotype, on average our population is tallest. I really notice it when abroad

I don't think more female characters reeks of virtue signalling any more than having more male characters. Its a made up universe. Wishing back for those days when it wasn't virtue signalling just means going back to when it was tokenism. There are happy middle grounds and Battletech is diverse without feeling like its trying to hard/too little.

**Voss**

Traditionally, it tried too little. With a couple of exceptions (the Black Widow), the female characters were exclusively tokens or love interests, never main characters. And when they were the latter, they fell 'in lurve' at the drop of a hat, even when it was really creepy- like the not-quite 18 Steiner heiress and the 40-something Davion prince.

**Mr Morden**

Voss wrote:
Traditionally, it tried too little. With a couple of exceptions (the Black Widow), the female characters were exclusively tokens or love interests, never main characters. And when they were the latter, they fell 'in lurve' at the drop of a hat, even when it was really creepy- like the not-quite 18 Steiner heiress and the 40-something Davion prince.

?? There were many and varied characters - male and female in both the novels and the Campaign packs like Sorenson's Sabres or Cranston Snords Irregulars

Both men and women were just as likely to fall in love (or lust) with other characters - never had an issue with that - it was quite soap opera like but that I have always thought was part of BattleTech and even to a certain extent mirrors Animae in which it has old roots.

Now you can argue that alot of the imagery took full advantage of the fact that female Mechwarriors wear very little due to the heat but this is even mentioned in-universe when Misha interviews Natasha and talks about her "sexy" image and the fact that pictures of her wearing sexy outfits in a battlezone are staged propaganda by her

Melissa falling in love - well we are talking about fuedal arranged marriages and in this case I thought it was handled quite well, look back in history and its more common than you would think for mature powerful men to marry younger women and actually have a good marriage or even fall in love. Katrina is heavily involved in the marrriage set up and even gives her daughter the opportunity to refuse - this follows what happened with quite a few historic arranged marriages between royal familes.

A good example was Maragret of France, she wed Edward I when he was 60, she about 20 in a vary similar marriage of alliance, apparently they had a loving relationship as he had with first wife, when he died 6 years later Margaret never remarried. She was alleged to have stated that "when Edward died, all men died for me".

**Voss**

Had they just treated it as an arranged marriage it would have been less creepy. But the books whittered on about the love at first sight angle, and a lot of odd nonsense that didn't fit a political marriage. And then his representative fell in love with her handmaiden and so on and so forth. People would just wander into a room and instantly get declared 'in love' by the crappy novels.

The characters, quite frankly, weren't that varied. The Liao were the lunatic 'yellow menace,' Kurita was either mustache twirling villains (early on) or horrible weeabo stereotypes.

**Mr Morden**

Voss wrote:
Had they just treated it as an arranged marriage it would have been less creepy. But the books whittered on about the love at first sight angle, and a lot of odd nonsense that didn't fit a political marriage. And then his representative fell in love with her handmaiden and so on and so forth. People would just wander into a room and instantly get declared 'in love' by the crappy novels.

The characters, quite frankly, weren't that varied. The Liao were the lunatic 'yellow menace,' Kurita was either mustache twirling villains (early on) or horrible weeabo stereotypes.

I liked the romance - just like I enjoy it in the Cain novels but each to their own

I really enjoy them still. Its Soap opera style but then most Action/Fantasysci-fi shows are exactly the same? Love at first sight happens sooo often.

As I said, poltical marriages CAN be happy or even result in the participants falling in love - often they are not - but same can be said for any other marriage/ relationship?

Now I fully agree that Davion became far to often the "Goodies" and the best at everything - NAIS was truely horrible for this but the protogonists of the novels did vary as did the background material in the campaign packs and books.

No idea what a Weeabo is - I'll have to look it up.