Are you happy to pay GW for 40k improvements?

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**lolman1c**

hobojebus wrote:
Zingraff wrote:
To use computer game analogy, I'm fine with paying for "expansions", but "patches" should be free. The CA has those two mixed up and I do not approve of that.

I don't understand why GW doesn't adopt a living rule book format, which would be a digital version that is continually updated to reflect rule changes. Upon buying a physical book, you would receive a registration code, and having registered your book, you would have access to the digital "living rule book". This sort of thing is easy to adopt, especially since the digital books already exist.

They don't adopt it because they don't understand it they are still stuck in the 90's.

They are like your elderly parents buying tech then looking at you to set it up, they have a vague idea how it should work but no clue how to implement it.

Joke is that in the 90s some companies would send you a free patched floppy disk of their game if you signed up for it.

**hobojebus**

Oh I remember buying games from computer fair's getting them home installing them just to have them not work, then you'd have to wait a week to get that 3 1/4 disk.

One I most remember was a game called oni.

Of course it was pretty rare then to have such issues as things had to work out the box.

Now they rush it out and patch later.

Fekke I'm making myself feel old.

**warhead01**

I'm not voting in the pole. I don't see a response that fits what I think about it. I don't like this nearly living rule book thing they have going on. I play about 20 games a year now days and I spend a lot of time keeping up with what's going on but not enough time actually playing so it messes me up a fair bit.
I also don't care for the way competitive list have created this situation. Yes a lot of what's been going on could have happened at any place other than a tournament but I think it would be fa more rare. But what ever.

**Just Tony**

Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

Every ounce of this. The only thing I would add is that we only need CA for things like new units and scenarios.

**lolman1c**

Just Tony wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

Every ounce of this. The only thing I would add is that we only need CA for things like new units and scenarios.

To say new rules are needed paying for CA was a bit of a weird thing for me. Really points and new rules should have been a free pdf. I know people just say share the rules or coppy it online but 1. It's illegal to get a copy of it illegally online. 2. If you share from a friend you're still giving money for something you already paid for like less that 6 months ago.

**Sim-Life**

Just Tony wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

Every ounce of this. The only thing I would add is that we only need CA for things like new units and scenarios.

But there are more way to play than just the way YOU play. Just because you don't want to use the custom land raider rules doesn't mean no one does.

I'd also address Peregrine'a part of the quote but that line if thinking has been refuted so many times at this point there'a no point.

**Corrode**

I, too, would like to have all the things I want for free.

**hobojebus**

Corrode wrote:
I, too, would like to have all the things I want for free.

It's not about getting free stuff it's about not paying for fixes to a book you already paid out for.

Gw who already charge more than is reasonable are trying to double dip that's why people are annoyed.

**Zingraff**

Corrode wrote:
I, too, would like to have all the things I want for free.

It has nothing to do with that. I don't think any of us are asking for free stuff, just for continued support of a product we've already invested in.

It's about what you should reasonably expect from an entertainment company of this size, and how other game companies treat their customers when updating their rules. This is about industry standards, and GW isn't living up to them.

Most other companies, when put in this situation, will make their rulebooks free to download from their website, or something to that extent.

**Peregrine**

Sim-Life wrote:
But there are more way to play than just the way YOU play. Just because you don't want to use the custom land raider rules doesn't mean no one does.

What's your point? Nobody is complaining about GW releasing new rules like the custom Land Raiders for money, that's genuine new content. The actual complaint is GW charging money for fixes (point adjustments, FAQs/errata to rules issues, etc) to a broken product instead of getting it right in the first place and giving free updates to fix anything that somehow slips through. "More than one way to play" is not an excuse for selling a defective product and then charging even more money for the fix.

(Well, maybe some of us are less than amused by space marines once again getting exclusive access to the shiny new thing while GW forgets that every other army exists, but that's a separate issue.)

I'd also address Peregrine'a part of the quote but that line if thinking has been refuted so many times at this point there'a no point.

What has been refuted? That GW should produce high-quality rules and not charge money for fixing their own defective product? Or that GW's recent codices have had a lot of their former fluff stripped out and are not worth buying if you want fluff? Because neither of those have been refuted at all.

**kodos**

GW promises that "this time" they have improved/fixed it therefore it is worth buying.
So in the last year they improved the game 4 times (core rules with Index to fix 7th, Codex books to fix the Index, CA and the big FAQ to fix all together) and we had to pay 3 times

So why should we pay for the next "improvement" that is is none

**Sim-Life**

kodos wrote:
GW promises that "this time" they have improved/fixed it therefore it is worth buying.

I'm pretty sure they've never said that.

**lolman1c**

Would love to gather a big list of actual GW quotes thougf. Reminds me of the game Destiny 1 and why I never purchased it. I found a qoute saying it would be supported for 10 years! And there were reviewers yelling and people in the comments to shut up because the game would be supported for 10 years. Then 1 year later destiny 2 comes out and the first game loses all support.

**deathwinguk**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

**Togusa**

lolman1c wrote:
Now that Chapter Approved is now just a glimmer in the eye of many players I thought I would return to the topic about paying for rules such as CA and the codex (more the data sheets for units). However, this isn't a thread where i sit here and rant into the void! I want to start with a blank slate and not say whether I think it is good or bad that we pay for additional rules. I want you guys to tare out each others throats so potentially the sacrificing might bring down a chaos god and reveal some kind of wisdom from the mess.

Although, to have a discussion, I need to have a leaping off point with a few potential things we can all debate as a community (basically topics I want you to keep in mind or discuss).

1. How much orginal content was in CA?
2. How much of CA do you use?
3. GW have been bringing out lots of FAQ (with a big one recently) for free.
4. How do other GW games handle rules in comparison to 40k?
5. What improvement did your codex give you over the index, do you think it was worth it and did you read any of the lore in your codex?

Full disclosure: I did not buy CA but I do own a few codecies from different editions even for stuff I don't main. Sometimes it is just to read the lore.

In addition, this thread was inspired by the recent words of a game developer in a video my friend showed mel thengame developer listed a bunch of things he believed should never be charged for and a few of those items were things GW does charge for. Again, not saying I do or do not agree (not sure I know the answer myself) but might be fun to discuss. Maybe might even learn something.

I'll be honest, our group bought two copies and we each chipped in 2 dollars to the cost to do it. PERSONALLY, I think these updates should be free. Skip the book from and just PDF it on their website.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

lolman1c wrote:
Would love to gather a big list of actual GW quotes thougf. Reminds me of the game Destiny 1 and why I never purchased it. I found a qoute saying it would be supported for 10 years! And there were reviewers yelling and people in the comments to shut up because the game would be supported for 10 years. Then 1 year later destiny 2 comes out and the first game loses all support.

Well to be fair this was the intent of the company. But at that time they hadn't tasted the nastiness that comes from suckling at the tit of Activision. Once they latched on, it was only down hill from there.

I mean, we are talking about a company that made a world war two game in which 1 out of 4 German soldiers at D-Day were wielding Russian smgs....

**Daedalus81**

deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

**deathwinguk**

Daedalus81 wrote:
deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

Indeed. It does show that GW thought they had it nailed though. I don't have enough experience to say either way, but it seems like many on here would disagree with that statement based on comments in other threads.

**Sim-Life**

deathwinguk wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

Indeed. It does show that GW thought they had it nailed though. I don't have enough experience to say either way, but it seems like many on here would disagree with that statement based on comments in other threads.

They were trying to sell a new edition. It surprises me that people will use marketing in order to try and hold GW to task for simply being a business. Like would saying

We think we got it okay. I mean it's not perfect but we think we did an alright job. We'll fix it as we go though because it's not amazingor anything.

sound AT ALL professional to you?

Remember Finecast? Why would you ever take GW at their word after that? I defend GW a lot but I don't just blindly believe everything they say.

**ServiceGames**

I've bought both General's Handbooks to date. I haven't bought CA yet as I haven't really needed it. But, yeah, I don't mind paying for a living ruleset for a game. That said, unless they do an exceptional job of providing new missions and/or new ways to play, I do not want anything else in the book other than rule changes and new point values to make sure the cost stays as low as possible.

SG

**lolman1c**

Aparntly, the new app for 40k will require us to actually buy every individual factions codex digitally for us to use it?! Wtf gw... Aos get the same thing for 0.99p and we have to re buy our codex for a list builder? I hope this is just a rumour!

**deathwinguk**

Sim-Life wrote:
deathwinguk wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

Indeed. It does show that GW thought they had it nailed though. I don't have enough experience to say either way, but it seems like many on here would disagree with that statement based on comments in other threads.

They were trying to sell a new edition. It surprises me that people will use marketing in order to try and hold GW to task for simply being a business.

Like I said, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with GW, just providing a quote from 8th edition's release as requested. Having said that I see nothing wrong with the community reviewing a product against it's marketing description having bought it.

**pm713**

deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

I loved them saying that because it was so obviously going to be a failure. Who thinks that's a good thing to say?

**Sim-Life**

pm713 wrote:
deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

I loved them saying that because it was so obviously going to be a failure. Who thinks that's a good thing to say?

The marketing department.

**lolman1c**

I wonder if you can kinda say that maube it's false advertising?

**Sim-Life**

lolman1c wrote:
I wonder if you can kinda say that maube it's false advertising?

No because everything they said about 8th is subjective.

**lolman1c**

Well yes... everything is "use able" (even a shoe box could be a landraider). So they got us on that end!

**Just Tony**

Peregrine wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
But there are more way to play than just the way YOU play. Just because you don't want to use the custom land raider rules doesn't mean no one does.

What's your point? Nobody is complaining about GW releasing new rules like the custom Land Raiders for money, that's genuine new content. The actual complaint is GW charging money for fixes (point adjustments, FAQs/errata to rules issues, etc) to a broken product instead of getting it right in the first place and giving free updates to fix anything that somehow slips through. "More than one way to play" is not an excuse for selling a defective product and then charging even more money for the fix.

(Well, maybe some of us are less than amused by space marines once again getting exclusive access to the shiny new thing while GW forgets that every other army exists, but that's a separate issue.)

I'd also address Peregrine'a part of the quote but that line if thinking has been refuted so many times at this point there'a no point.

What has been refuted? That GW should produce high-quality rules and not charge money for fixing their own defective product? Or that GW's recent codices have had a lot of their former fluff stripped out and are not worth buying if you want fluff? Because neither of those have been refuted at all.

Thank you for getting that answer in the queue for me, I was a little late getting back in this thread. And I do mean that sincerely.

If Microsoft put out Xbox updates that forced you to rebuy the games you play, or to pay for patches to that game, I'd like to think people would get quite upset. I'm starting to doubt that, as it seems that hobby budget money is more disposable now than ever.

**ProwlerPC**

Imagine if you bought a fine cast model with a defective arm and called up customer service. Imagine if customer service response is that they will replace that defect but they will charge you money for it. This guy says no fething way. I'd walk away from ever being a customer again. There's a reason why the hobby aspect is all I concern myself with and the game itself is a very far distant secondary. I still haven't dropped a single penny on any books for 8th. I'm waiting for the finished product while watching others pay not just once but multiple times over to beta test an unfinished product. My patience far exceeds their shareholder's patience by orders of magnitude.

**Adeptus Doritos**

How common were 'big FAQ' things before 6th edition?

**Just Tony**

Speaking from 3rd on up, there were typically FAQs and errata that would come out during an edition. They'd even have PDF's on their site back in the day that you could print off and paste over the part in the books they corrected.