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I'm definitely not liking the 8th Edition method of paying for the same rules over and over. I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army. Each book above has content not related to playing the game and/or related to playing the game but not related to playing my faction. In other words, I'm not getting anywhere close to $160 worth of value out of these books because I'm only using a small portion of the books. In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point.

Should GW be charging for...

1. ...the core rule book? I think GW should absolutely charge for the new edition's core rule book. I do think they should have made a fluff free, smaller format version available for people who (don't want to pay so much/don't want to carry a huge book around/aren't interested in the fluff/etc).
2. ...the Index books? I don't think they should have charged for the Index books. That material should really have been free... especially given the stated intent of replacing them ASAP with Codexes. I was forced to pay for multiple factions worth of datasheets just to get the Necron sheets. Those sheets now have zero value with a Codex having been released.
3. ...the Codex books? Sure. GW should charge for these. It would be nice to have a smaller format, soft cover version for portability's sake, but I get that GW is committed to only releasing fancy, expensive books.
4. ...the Chapter Approved annuals? I'm torn here. The only thing I care about in these books are the updated rules and updated points tables. Updated rules and point costs belong in FAQ/Errata docs and not in paid materials. I do think GW should charge for the other content in the book as it's basically expansion material.

So... I think to play a Necron army, I should only have to buy the core rules and a Codex. I shouldn't have had to pay for an Index (free PDF instead) and I shouldn't have to pay for annual points changes and rules tweaks (free PDF instead). And speaking of free PDFs... for the love of all that's good in this world, create a SINGLE document with all of the FAQs/Erratas broken out into sections by faction. I'm tired of having to hunt through a whole array of documents to answer a single rules question.

 Sim-Life wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

I loved them saying that because it was so obviously going to be a failure. Who thinks that's a good thing to say?

The marketing department.

It's just so obviously untrue it's not even good marketing.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm definitely not liking the 8th Edition method of paying for the same rules over and over. I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army. Each book above has content not related to playing the game and/or related to playing the game but not related to playing my faction. In other words, I'm not getting anywhere close to $160 worth of value out of these books because I'm only using a small portion of the books. In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point.

Should GW be charging for...

1. ...the core rule book? I think GW should absolutely charge for the new edition's core rule book. I do think they should have made a fluff free, smaller format version available for people who (don't want to pay so much/don't want to carry a huge book around/aren't interested in the fluff/etc).
2. ...the Index books? I don't think they should have charged for the Index books. That material should really have been free... especially given the stated intent of replacing them ASAP with Codexes. I was forced to pay for multiple factions worth of datasheets just to get the Necron sheets. Those sheets now have zero value with a Codex having been released.
3. ...the Codex books? Sure. GW should charge for these. It would be nice to have a smaller format, soft cover version for portability's sake, but I get that GW is committed to only releasing fancy, expensive books.
4. ...the Chapter Approved annuals? I'm torn here. The only thing I care about in these books are the updated rules and updated points tables. Updated rules and point costs belong in FAQ/Errata docs and not in paid materials. I do think GW should charge for the other content in the book as it's basically expansion material.

So... I think to play a Necron army, I should only have to buy the core rules and a Codex. I shouldn't have had to pay for an Index (free PDF instead) and I shouldn't have to pay for annual points changes and rules tweaks (free PDF instead). And speaking of free PDFs... for the love of all that's good in this world, create a SINGLE document with all of the FAQs/Erratas broken out into sections by faction. I'm tired of having to hunt through a whole array of documents to answer a single rules question.

This is a big way GW is making the numbers these days.

 Kriswall wrote:
I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army.

...

In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point

It's not good is it. Does the codex replace the index?

The Codex does not replace the index as it only contains units that currently have a model

So you either get the Index or don't use models you own

 kodos wrote:
The Codex does not replace the index as it only contains units that currently have a model

So you either get the Index or don't use models you own

Right

I was fortunate enough to come back to WH40k after the 8th edition SM codex was available so I didn't have to fork out for an index. I'm personally ignoring CA for now too.

The joke is we're all to blame (apart from me who has only actually ever purchased the 1 codex for marines (I wated) and index for orks. (I got the rule book basically given to me). You all purchased the books and have shown GW they can get away with it!

On a side note I do feel (my chaos friend especially) we were tricked by GW. Although they never said it, they implied the index would be the main way to play for about a year before they worked on balances and really got a hang for 8th ed. Like a month or 2 later his codex comes out...

 lolman1c wrote:

On a side note I do feel (my chaos friend especially) we were tricked by GW. Although they never said it, they implied the index would be the main way to play for about a year before they worked on balances and really got a hang for 8th ed. Like a month or 2 later his codex comes out...

Nobody got duped by GW. Did he get to play with his army for two months? Mission accomplished.

The community is really, really good at making things up and misleading itself.

I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

 Fafnir wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

I disagree. How much does every codex and rulebook cost right now? Assuming every faction had a codex out, you're looking at what.. over $1000 in books? They last 3 years per edition, so $333 annually for all content? $240 a year isn't that outrageous.

They could setup and app similar to how audible.com does it and if you drop the subscription you can't open the files anymore. I'm sure there will be pirating, but that exists now, so that's a wash. It would be refreshing to be able to open any book at any time on my phone and have all of the most updated and recent point costs, errata, and faqs already rolled in and updated. That is absolutely worth $20 a month to me.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

On a side note I do feel (my chaos friend especially) we were tricked by GW. Although they never said it, they implied the index would be the main way to play for about a year before they worked on balances and really got a hang for 8th ed. Like a month or 2 later his codex comes out...

Nobody got duped by GW. Did he get to play with his army for two months? Mission accomplished.

The community is really, really good at making things up and misleading itself.

Snoke Theories come to mind.

And Ork Players have gotten a good value out of the index, compared to others.

 deathwinguk wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army.

...

In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point

It's not good is it. Does the codex replace the index?

Sort of yes and sort of no. I had an army when 8th released. The choice was to either buy the Index and then also buy the Codex OR just not be able to use the army until the Codex released. If I were buying into Necrons today, I would not need the Index to play with updated rules. You only need to buy an Index after a Codex has released if you want to use some of the older units and wargear configurations that didn't make it into the Codex. Everyone who had an army when 8e dropped would have to buy their Index and subsequently buy their Codex.

It's even worse if you have a multi-faction army. I have a friend who has a very fluffy Imperial army featuring mainly Ultramarines with a very small allied group of Grey Knights (something like a Terminator HQ and maybe 3 Paladins) as well as a small AdMech group. To play the army from when 8e dropped until now, he needed to buy...
1. The core rules ($60)
2. Index: Imperium 1 ($25)
3. Index: Imperium 2 ($25)
4. Codex: Space Marines ($50)
5. Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus ($40)
6. Codex: Grey Knights ($40)
7. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
That's $275 worth of rules to run his army. I realize he has multple factions in there, but 7e's army building encouraged multi faction armies. It's always going to cost more to run multi faction armies, but $275 is a lot to ask. 8e monetarily rewards single faction, but competitively rewards multi faction (re:Imperial Soup). It's a form of pay to win. If you're willing to spend more actual dollars on rule books, you'll potentially have access to more competitive options.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

I disagree. How much does every codex and rulebook cost right now? Assuming every faction had a codex out, you're looking at what.. over $1000 in books? They last 3 years per edition, so $333 annually for all content? $240 a year isn't that outrageous.

They could setup and app similar to how audible.com does it and if you drop the subscription you can't open the files anymore. I'm sure there will be pirating, but that exists now, so that's a wash. It would be refreshing to be able to open any book at any time on my phone and have all of the most updated and recent point costs, errata, and faqs already rolled in and updated. That is absolutely worth $20 a month to me.

I'm telling you no one would pay 20$ a month for that.

Heck, even for 5$ a month I don't think many people would buy that suscription. 20$ a month can give you 2-3 suscriptions to other services like Netflix, World of Warcraft, etc... that give you much more value from your money.

if netflix best service is 14$ a month is for a reason.

 Galas wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

I disagree. How much does every codex and rulebook cost right now? Assuming every faction had a codex out, you're looking at what.. over $1000 in books? They last 3 years per edition, so $333 annually for all content? $240 a year isn't that outrageous.

They could setup and app similar to how audible.com does it and if you drop the subscription you can't open the files anymore. I'm sure there will be pirating, but that exists now, so that's a wash. It would be refreshing to be able to open any book at any time on my phone and have all of the most updated and recent point costs, errata, and faqs already rolled in and updated. That is absolutely worth $20 a month to me.

I'm telling you no one would pay 20$ a month for that.

Heck, even for 5$ a month I don't think many people would buy that suscription. 20$ a month can give you 2-3 suscriptions to other services like Netflix, World of Warcraft, etc... that give you much more value from your money.

if netflix best service is 14$ a month is for a reason.

I know half a dozen people that would because we sat around spitballing it. But pricepoint isn't the crux of the discussion here, it was the subscription service itself.

Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

 Fafnir wrote:
Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

To date since June last year, I've purchased all 5 indexes, all 4 FW indexes, 2 codexes, BRB, and CA. I'm $375 deep into rules for 8th edition. I'm about to buy another codex putting me at $425. Divide that by $20 and I've already paid a $20 subscription from the drop of 8th edition until this March 2019.

I don't think people realize how much we spend on the books, which aren't updated in a user friendly manner.

And that's still a stupidly high price to pay just to be able to spend more money on models. But at least up until now, the books were a one-time purchase. You can't seriously expect that price point every year would be reasonable just to participate.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

To date since June last year, I've purchased all 5 indexes, all 4 FW indexes, 2 codexes, BRB, and CA. I'm $375 deep into rules for 8th edition. I'm about to buy another codex putting me at $425. Divide that by $20 and I've already paid a $20 subscription from the drop of 8th edition until this March 2019.

I don't think people realize how much we spend on the books, which aren't updated in a user friendly manner.

Oh I know. I've been paying attention. I paid zero so far. I want a finished product first. If their current policy is to avoid achieving that it's no biggie to me I can wait another edition. As of 7th edition I had already taken up a new hobby/game; golf. I want to thank Geedubs for that. Addictive game.

40k 8th can go straight to hell. You need so many FaQs to play this burning tire fire.

Happy to stick with 30k for the moment.

Yeah even the idea of paying monthly for the poor quality rules makes my blood boil.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

To date since June last year, I've purchased all 5 indexes, all 4 FW indexes, 2 codexes, BRB, and CA. I'm $375 deep into rules for 8th edition. I'm about to buy another codex putting me at $425. Divide that by $20 and I've already paid a $20 subscription from the drop of 8th edition until this March 2019.

I don't think people realize how much we spend on the books, which aren't updated in a user friendly manner.

But surely you realise you're an exception rather than the rule.

Most people I'd imagine would just get the BRB (£30), CA (£20) and their Codex (£25-30). £75-80, With only the £20 repeating for the CA on a yearly basis. Even if they bought their appropriate Index or a 2nd Codex too it comes to nowhere near worth $20 a month.

I'd love them to offer a digital subscription. As long as it was good quality, with the revisions kept up to date. £5 a month is on the high side of what I'd pay, but it wouldn't surprise me if GW set it at that price.

It's so strange how people put value on different items and goods.

"£5 a month is on the high side."
"£20 a month is absolutely wild"

However if you go to a coffee shop and buy a latte and a sandwich, you spend more than £5.

How much is a regular book with no illustrations or anything apart from a nice cover, that you might read once and never look at again? £8.99 probably?

A pint of beer is £4.50 nowadays. And you would have more than one of those a month, I expect. Around one a day, for many.

The cheapest possible item of clothing is probably £5. What can you get for a fiver? A poor quality tshirt made in a bangladeshi sweatshop.

If you vape or smoke, you easily spend £20 a month - possibly a week - on inhaling stuff.

Etc.


Before people jump in to say "ah but I don't drink coffee, smoke, read books, wear clothes or any of those things" I am not offering conclusions here and YMMV but for me, the comparative value between a coffee or a rubbish t-shirt and a subscription to a rules service for a game I enjoy and that gives me pleasure is... an easy decision.

It's about value for money, not affordability.

GW's codex and rulebook prices are an entry fee to spend more money on models. Most companies would rather treat this as a loss leader.

When I buy that sandwich, I'm getting my money's worth of sandwich (unless I'm getting it from Tim's, as is usually the case, but that's kind of just the pain of existence right there). With GW's rulebooks, there's not a lot that I can do without spending more money, it's a gatekeeper. The content in it is pretty sparse otherwise, it exists almost solely to facilitate the models that I actually do want.

There seems to be a bit of disconnect here.

Broadly speaking there are two camps of people:
1) Those who believe that corrections to the rulebook should be free as they are amending something that was incorrect.
2) Those who believe that corrections should be paid for on top of the fee for the original book.

Here's an idea. Why don't GW provide the corrections and editing as a free PDF so that people who paid for the original book aren't being shafted and paying twice. Those people who want a physical booklet printed by GW have the option to buy a booklet for the cost of the printing materials.

There we go, case solved. Studio Tomahawk did this for SAGA2 and the corrections/editing of the Aetius and Arthur book. Rules for free as downloadable print-out. Physical copy provided by the company as a paid for item at cost-value = Happy customers.

 Wulfmar wrote:
There seems to be a bit of disconnect here.

Broadly speaking there are two camps of people:
1) Those who believe that corrections to the rulebook should be free as they are amending something that was incorrect.
2) Those who believe that corrections should be paid for on top of the fee for the original book.

Here's an idea. Why don't GW provide the corrections and editing as a free PDF so that people who paid for the original book aren't being shafted and paying twice. Those people who want a physical booklet printed by GW have the option to buy a booklet for the cost of the printing materials.

There we go, case solved. Studio Tomahawk did this for SAGA2 and the corrections/editing of the Aetius and Arthur book. Rules for free as downloadable print-out. Physical copy provided by the company as a paid for item at cost-value = Happy customers.

Corrections and editing are provided free of charge. You can find them here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

I was aware, but thank you for being helpful

I don't see myself buying another physical copy of a GW publication. Except AoS, they seem to have done it right, they disconnected statlines from costs completely, which is the right way to do it.

Digital content is the way to go. A rules subscription is the way to go.