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Stux wrote:

A Necron Warrior wrote:
What loadout do you recommend for an anti tank Russ?

Battlecannon. Because it's better than all the others against almost every target, except the Punisher against infantry.

I'd have to math it out again but IIRC the Punisher is better against 3+ saves, T7 or below and any invulnerable saves (but has worse range obviously). Lots of shots are good.

In general though, I think the hull lascannon and hb sponsons can be worth it if you're tallarn (and can move and fire) or cadian (and won't move), but otherwise bare bones is best. 12 T8 3+ wounds is pretty tough for 160 points, but as you add on options it's easy to make it a little squishy.

A Necron Warrior wrote:
So would bolter sponson be better than no sponsons?

If it's Pask, sure. Hitting on a 2+ makes a lot of guns worth it! On a normal Russ... Eh, I can take it or leave it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
As a general "all rounder" that you can stick in any force and have it be useful, I'm a fan of the classic LRBT combo sporting a battlecannon with a hull lascannonn and sponson heavy bolters. Can engage any kind of target reasonably well, can be supported effectively, is not outrageously expensive, and generally will never feel wasted or overkill.

This.

Lemondish wrote:

I disagree precisely because I don't even think heavy bolter sponsons are worth equipping unless you're running Tallarn. That weapon is best thrown into infantry units (if you want them) because at least there it'll be affected by orders.

[*]rolls eyes[/*] Yes, though leman russes are fairly non-offensive platforms for heavy bolters, and they'll make the vehicle marginally more than a strictly inferior Manticore/Basilisk [or not, really, they're still worse than Manticores/Basilisks]. However, you do want to equip sponsons onto your tank commander, because he's paying the BS4+ price but is BS3+ [or 2+], so he makes them go a little farther.

A Necron Warrior wrote:What about Demolisher cannons with multi melta sponsons as anti tank? I don't know much about them

Pass on both accounts with a 10-foot pole. The Demolisher cannon is among the straight out worst options for the russ-tank, and multimeltas are outclassed by cheaper plasmacannons.

A Necron Warrior wrote:What loadout do you recommend for an anti tank Russ?

Battlecannon, Lascannon

"*]rolls eyes[/*] Yes, though leman russes are fairly non-offensive platforms for heavy bolters, and they'll make the vehicle marginally more than a strictly inferior Manticore/Basilisk [or not, really, they're still worse than Manticores/Basilisks]. However, you do want to equip sponsons onto your tank commander, because he's paying the BS4+ price but is BS3+ [or 2+], so he makes them go a little farther. "

This really depends on whether AT weapons can draw LoS to your artillery, doesn't it? Leman Russ is stupid durable for its points. Borderline broken, really. Only more so as lascannons fall out of the meta.

novembermike wrote:

Stux wrote:

A Necron Warrior wrote:
What loadout do you recommend for an anti tank Russ?

Battlecannon. Because it's better than all the others against almost every target, except the Punisher against infantry.

I'd have to math it out again but IIRC the Punisher is better against 3+ saves, T7 or below and any invulnerable saves (but has worse range obviously). Lots of shots are good.

Battlecannon maths out better Vs T6/7 3+ save, unless it's a 3++. Even with a 4++ the Battlecannon is better.

With the range too, likely the Punisher is taking -1 on BS much more often than the Battlecannon.

Just my .02
Keep em cheap and durable.

Battle Cannon, Hull mounted heavy bolter. No sponsons.
Or
Tank commander, battle cannon, hull mounted lascannon.

Only after adding everything else to your list and if you have points to spare switch hull heavy bolter to lascannons. If you still have points left over then you could have probably just added another unit instead.

Martel732 wrote:
"*]rolls eyes[/*] Yes, though leman russes are fairly non-offensive platforms for heavy bolters, and they'll make the vehicle marginally more than a strictly inferior Manticore/Basilisk [or not, really, they're still worse than Manticores/Basilisks]. However, you do want to equip sponsons onto your tank commander, because he's paying the BS4+ price but is BS3+ [or 2+], so he makes them go a little farther. "

This really depends on whether AT weapons can draw LoS to your artillery, doesn't it? Leman Russ is stupid durable for its points. Borderline broken, really. Only more so as lascannons fall out of the meta.

Really? And is the Vindicator at T8 for less? Obviously not. Being T8 gives them a fighting chance to overcome the fact they have to expose themselves to do their thing, but artillery is S9 and S10. Seriously, Leman Russ Battle Tanks may be fine casually, but if it starts getting cut-throat should be early on the chopping block in favor of artillery and shadowswords, things that are actually good.

Also, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Is the artillery completely invincible because its out of LoS and there's 150 guys between you and the position you've got to get to to shoot at it, or is it in the open and it's going to get plugged full of holes if it's not T8?

Vindicator is strictly inferior to the demolisher russ you say you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot poll - in literally every criteria. Shooting twice and not suffering negatives for shooting and only costs what...50 points more? It's a travesty. I agree it is worse than a battle cannon tank though - their points should really be reversed.

Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

Ahh yes - forge world making broken things better - standard across the board.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

Ahh yes - forge world making broken things better - standard across the board.

Oh glad you mention that. It has also has a superior degrading stat line as it only goes to down to its second bracket on 3-5 and only goes on its last at 1-2 as opposed to the 4-6 and 1-3 of a normal battle tank.

Usually it's a mixture. There's not usually enough terrain to hide 4-6 artillery tanks, so they hide the most valuable ones for that particular matchup. So some can be seen, usually, others not. IG have enough drops to place them last and hide from as many heavy guns as they can, too.

Don't get me wrong, I kill a LOT of IG stuff everytime I play them. But like Thanos, they have blood to give. Those artillery tanks still have 10 wounds or more and a couple of poor D6 damage rolls kills low shot armies like marines. They just outlast everything. The wounds/pt in an IG list is insane, especially given how much of it is T8.

The huge amount of infantry necessitates shooting at a distance, and that's where the Russ really shines. Shooting at something so cheap with T8 is usually pyrrhic at best. It absolutely blows my mind why you don't like stock russes when you compare to basically any other vehicle in the game.

Leman Russ would have a fair price tag if they could actually be assaulted in a reasonable time frame. But they can't, so they aren't. The tanks are undercosted because the screens are undercosted. A vicious cycle indeed.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

Ahh yes - forge world making broken things better - standard across the board.

Oh glad you mention that. It has also has a superior degrading stat line as it only goes to down to its second bracket on 3-5 and only goes on its last at 2-5 as opposed to the 4-6 and 1-3 of a normal battle tank.

One I see people playing a lot is the reroll d6 damage gun that gets 2 shots. Whats it called? Vanquisher?

Yeah that's it. Stay still 2 shots hit's on 3's rerolling all hits if you got a hit with coaxel and then you get 2d6 pick highest damage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

Ahh yes - forge world making broken things better - standard across the board.

Well, with that beardy interpretation of rerolls, sure. It also has to be within 24" to get those rerolls.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

Ahh yes - forge world making broken things better - standard across the board.

Well, with that beardy interpretation of rerolls, sure. It also has to be within 24" to get those rerolls.

I don't think its a beardy of an interpretation at all. It just says you may re-roll to hit. Cawl has very similar wording where he says you may re-roll any to hit rolls in the shooting phase. Getting within 24 inches is not hard at all when you can move 4.9 and still double tap. A punisher for instance couldn't shoot at all if you are out of 24", but the Conqueror can still take some shots at the very least.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Leman Russ conqueror with Catachan tactics. It is a strictly superior leman russ battle tank. For 157 points you get a leman russ chassis with a conqueror battle cannon (48 inch range battle cannon) with a built in co-axial storm bolter and of course the option to buy a pintel mounted storm bolter. Oh and the heavy bolter. If you fire your battle cannon at the same target as you the co-axial storm bolter in the shooting phase "you may re-roll to hit". The exact wording there also means you could re-roll "successful" to hit rolls to get around - to hit modifiers.

Then you take Catachan tactics so it can re-roll its two d6 shots so within 24 inches you get 8.5 shots that hit on 4s re-rolling. Then don't forget its not too terrible against chaff units due to its rate of fire on its storm bolters and cannons. Its an amazingly point efficient tank that is extremely versatile.

Ahh yes - forge world making broken things better - standard across the board.

Well, with that beardy interpretation of rerolls, sure. It also has to be within 24" to get those rerolls.

I don't think its a beardy of an interpretation at all. It just says you may re-roll to hit. Cawl has very similar wording where he says you may re-roll any to hit rolls in the shooting phase. Getting within 24 inches is not hard at all when you can move 4.9 and still double tap. A punisher for instance couldn't shoot at all if you are out of 24", but the Conqueror can still take some shots at the very least.

The vanquisher doesn't have the requirement because it's coxail stubber is 36". It just needs to not move to be bs 3+. But rerolling 4+ is better than 3+ so moving 6" gives you 42" threat range with that gun. Pretty powerful - good average damage .

The Forgeworld Vanquisher with coaxial stubber is still worse than the Battlecannon against almost every target though. That's how bad regular Vanquishers are :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we're talking Forgeworld, the Annihilator is marginally better than the Battlecannon... For a ton more points.

Stux wrote:
The Forgeworld Vanquisher with coaxial stubber is still worse than the Battlecannon against almost every target though. That's how bad regular Vanquishers are :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we're talking Forgeworld, the Annihilator is marginally better than the Battlecannon... For a ton more points.

I havn't done the math - I figured the ap -3 might edge it out against tanks. Still wounds the same though which is it's problem.

If you want to run armor, you should run armor heavy. IG can skew armor heavy, which means that even armies that can deal with T8 struggle to deal with how much we can bring.

Sure, if you're going to bring one or two tanks, than maybe look hard at tank commanders... but TCs are no more durable than basic tanks, and have a 33% increase in firepower for a 33% increase in cost. So, while two loaded out Tank Commanders might do roughly the damage of three barebones russes, the three russes are more durable.

Now, you don't need to skew with just russes (I often run three LRBTs, three basilisks, and two or three hellhounds), but presenting a range of high wound, high T targets can really flummox an opponent that feels comfortable dealing with a couple of such targets.

So, for me, I run 'em bare bones, battle cannon and hull heavy bolter. I like Catachan because they can move and still enjoy their buff.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Forgeworld Vanquisher with coaxial stubber is still worse than the Battlecannon against almost every target though. That's how bad regular Vanquishers are :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we're talking Forgeworld, the Annihilator is marginally better than the Battlecannon... For a ton more points.

I havn't done the math - I figured the ap -3 might edge it out against tanks. Still wounds the same though which is it's problem.

My bad, I messed up! Put in d6 damage for Battlecannon instead of d3, d'oh!

Vs T7, 3+

Battlecannon does 1.55 wounds

Stygies Vanquisher does 2.32 wounds (that's with the +1 to hit and the re-roll to hit)

Of course it only gets the re-roll within stubber range, and if both tanks move that hurts the Vanquisher much more than the Battlecannon. But it does have a place to be fair!

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Forgeworld Vanquisher with coaxial stubber is still worse than the Battlecannon against almost every target though. That's how bad regular Vanquishers are :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we're talking Forgeworld, the Annihilator is marginally better than the Battlecannon... For a ton more points.

I havn't done the math - I figured the ap -3 might edge it out against tanks. Still wounds the same though which is it's problem.

My bad, I messed up! Put in d6 damage for Battlecannon instead of d3, d'oh!

Vs T7, 3+

Battlecannon does 1.55 wounds

Stygies Vanquisher does 2.32 wounds (that's with the +1 to hit and the re-roll to hit)

Of course it only gets the re-roll within stubber range, and if both tanks move that hurts the Vanquisher much more than the Battlecannon. But it does have a place to be fair!

What about comparing it to a Leman Russ annihilator which has four (if you double tap) lascannon shots? Also what if you re-roll to hit with the battle cannon if it is a conqueror tank? Would that bring it up to match the vanquisher?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stux wrote:
The Forgeworld Vanquisher with coaxial stubber is still worse than the Battlecannon against almost every target though. That's how bad regular Vanquishers are :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if we're talking Forgeworld, the Annihilator is marginally better than the Battlecannon... For a ton more points.

I havn't done the math - I figured the ap -3 might edge it out against tanks. Still wounds the same though which is it's problem.

My bad, I messed up! Put in d6 damage for Battlecannon instead of d3, d'oh!

Vs T7, 3+

Battlecannon does 1.55 wounds

Stygies Vanquisher does 2.32 wounds (that's with the +1 to hit and the re-roll to hit)

Of course it only gets the re-roll within stubber range, and if both tanks move that hurts the Vanquisher much more than the Battlecannon. But it does have a place to be fair!

What about comparing it to a Leman Russ annihilator which has four (if you double tap) lascannon shots? Also what if you re-roll to hit with the battle cannon if it is a conqueror tank? Would that bring it up to match the vanquisher?

All the main guns can double tap, so as long as the comparison is consistent it's basically irrelevant.

I'll do a more thorough breakdown of all the turrets against different targets and post later


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I've compared 11 Leman Russ variants Vs 6 common targets. The variants are:

Battlecannon
Punisher
Vanquisher
Eradicator
Exterminator
Executioner
Demolisher
Stygies Vanquisher
Mars Alpha Vanquisher
Annihilator
Conqueror

The targets are:

Rhino
Leman Russ
Land Raider

GEQ
MEQ
TEQ

Here are some premises:
1) The tanks were considered to be in range of their targets with their main gun and any coaxial weapon.
2) Only the main gun was considered for damage/kills, any hull/sponsons/coaxial weapon was ignored.
3) The tanks were assumed to be stationary.
4) The target was considered to not be in cover
5) The Executioner was assumed to be overcharging, and so potentially sustaining damage.

There isn't a neat way to post all the results, as it's a big spreadsheet, but here are some summaries:

Vs Vehicles the Demolisher, Annihilator, Stygies Vanquisher, and Conqueror all performed well. Conqueror was best against Rhinos but Demolisher and Annihilator pulled ahead on the tougher vehicles.

Vs Infantry, the Punisher was best against GEQs and MEQs, while the Conqueror and the Executioner were best against TEQs thanks to their balance of decent number of shots, high AP, and high chance to do 2 damage. The Punisher on average would fail to kill a single Terminator.

The Battlecannon was a decent all rounder, but is beaten out consistently by the Conqueror. It should be noted though that the Conqueror not only has a shorter base range, but loses all advantage over the regular Battlecannon if it's coaxial weapon is not in range which is only 24".

The Eradicator and Exterminator are terrible. They're in the bottom three against all vehicle types, and middle of the pile against all infantry types.

The Executioner appears stronger than the Battlecannon across the board, but remember to consider that you will be likely taking a mortal wound every turn on average using it overcharged all the time. If you don't overcharge it, it is quite poor.

The Stygies Vanquisher is really quite decent on paper, but also consider this is based on using its 24" range coaxial gun. The Mars Alpha while lower performance while stationary has a 36" range coaxial gun so has a better threat range. There's really no point taking a regular Vanquisher while these variants exist though.

While the Annihilator and Demolisher have very similar performance, it is once again important to consider range. The Annihilator has double the range and this is really significant.

Best all rounder: Conqueror
Best all rounder if you can't afford Forgeworld: Executioner or Battlecannon
Best Tank Hunter: Annihilator
Best Horde Killer: Punisher (surprise surprise!)