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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 01:05:39
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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I feel like most of these reveals grow in effectiveness as you become more "that guy." CP barrier is less of an issue as you turn into yet another Imperial Soup army. The anti-xeno ones work better if you also tailor your list to fight that specific army. Especially with things like auto-hit weapons against orks that you normally wouldn't spam in a TAC list. Primaris kill teams seem to want to be tailor made against specific lists as well. I understand that is how silver bullets are supposed to work, but isn't that one of the chief complaints about GK? You are paying silver bullet prices even when you aren't getting any benefits. When they do work, it usually feels cheap to the opponent since you have a one sided advantage. Even more so if its being fueled by a CP battery that comes from having allies. Something Orks, Tau, and necrons also cannot do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 11:13:57
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
Ottawa
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DominayTrix wrote:I feel like most of these reveals grow in effectiveness as you become more "that guy." CP barrier is less of an issue as you turn into yet another Imperial Soup army. The anti-xeno ones work better if you also tailor your list to fight that specific army. Especially with things like auto-hit weapons against orks that you normally wouldn't spam in a TAC list. Primaris kill teams seem to want to be tailor made against specific lists as well. I understand that is how silver bullets are supposed to work, but isn't that one of the chief complaints about GK? You are paying silver bullet prices even when you aren't getting any benefits. When they do work, it usually feels cheap to the opponent since you have a one sided advantage. Even more so if its being fueled by a CP battery that comes from having allies. Something Orks, Tau, and necrons also cannot do.
If an opponent feels cheapened because 1 Stratagem is tailored for their units, is limited to once a phase, and are otherwise limited, then I'm not really sure one should feel bad about that. That's some crybaby level shenanigans.
You'll forgive me if I don't shed a tear for those Xenos, one of which is still on the index, one that has the cheapest brigade option, and one who's specific DW stratagem doesn't guarantee anything.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/04 11:37:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 11:21:39
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Lemondish wrote: DominayTrix wrote:I feel like most of these reveals grow in effectiveness as you become more "that guy." CP barrier is less of an issue as you turn into yet another Imperial Soup army. The anti-xeno ones work better if you also tailor your list to fight that specific army. Especially with things like auto-hit weapons against orks that you normally wouldn't spam in a TAC list. Primaris kill teams seem to want to be tailor made against specific lists as well. I understand that is how silver bullets are supposed to work, but isn't that one of the chief complaints about GK? You are paying silver bullet prices even when you aren't getting any benefits. When they do work, it usually feels cheap to the opponent since you have a one sided advantage. Even more so if its being fueled by a CP battery that comes from having allies. Something Orks, Tau, and necrons also cannot do.
If an opponent feels cheapened because 1 Stratagem is tailored for their units, is limited to once a phase, and are otherwise limited, then I'm not really sure one should feel bad about that. That's some crybaby level shenanigans.
You'll forgive me if I don't shed a tear for those Xenos, one of which is still on the index, one that has the cheapest brigade option, and one who's specific DW stratagem applies to a single unit.
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 11:54:02
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
Ottawa
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tneva82 wrote:Lemondish wrote: DominayTrix wrote:I feel like most of these reveals grow in effectiveness as you become more "that guy." CP barrier is less of an issue as you turn into yet another Imperial Soup army. The anti-xeno ones work better if you also tailor your list to fight that specific army. Especially with things like auto-hit weapons against orks that you normally wouldn't spam in a TAC list. Primaris kill teams seem to want to be tailor made against specific lists as well. I understand that is how silver bullets are supposed to work, but isn't that one of the chief complaints about GK? You are paying silver bullet prices even when you aren't getting any benefits. When they do work, it usually feels cheap to the opponent since you have a one sided advantage. Even more so if its being fueled by a CP battery that comes from having allies. Something Orks, Tau, and necrons also cannot do.
If an opponent feels cheapened because 1 Stratagem is tailored for their units, is limited to once a phase, and are otherwise limited, then I'm not really sure one should feel bad about that. That's some crybaby level shenanigans.
You'll forgive me if I don't shed a tear for those Xenos, one of which is still on the index, one that has the cheapest brigade option, and one who's specific DW stratagem applies to a single unit.
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
That's because they have anti-everything stratagems. They don't have specifics strats that target imperial forces because their strats aren't limited in that way. DW are specialized Xeno hunters, so it makes sense that their fluff is affecting their crunch. I see no issue with that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/04 12:30:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 12:22:32
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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tneva82 wrote:
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
Xenos are not weak right now...definitely not worse than Imperium.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 12:26:59
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Daedalus81 wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
Xenos are not weak right now...definitely not worse than Imperium.
I mean, if you take Imperium As a Whole and judge vs any one xenos faction his statement has a little merit, but if you take Imperium As a Whole vs All Xenos factions...well, all you have to do is look at the numbers I posted for those tournament lists in the other thread. Custodes and Guard have very strong showings, as do Marines, relatively speaking, but besides the two xenos factions still sitting in index there aren't any really non-powerful xenos factions.
Drukhari, Craftworld, Tyranid, Tau and Necron are all quite good, and interestingly despite the first three having soup options, they seem to be moving more commonly towards non-soup army setups.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 12:30:44
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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That's more of a popularity and ease of painting thing than anything else. It's quite easy to spend $200 and suddenly have custard soup.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 12:33:03
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Daedalus81 wrote:That's more of a popularity and ease of painting thing than anything else. It's quite easy to spend $200 and suddenly have custard soup.
if I had a dollar for every "i bought three custode kits and a can of retributor armor spray" lists ive seen in the last few months, I'd almost be able to buy a box of miniatures.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 12:39:45
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Daedalus81 wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
Xenos are not weak right now...definitely not worse than Imperium.
They might not be worse off than simgle pure sub faction or maybe faction lists.
But with the exception of the pointy eared cheese masters they can't pull the 3 detachments = 3 codex's of imperial or choas soup.
Soup allows cherry picking to create some broken interactions, and I would say is still the top dog of most unbalanced.
Mono codex vrs xeno is closer to balanced. Aslong as you didn't get a poor codex.
Soup in a small DW detachment and oh for a CP say goodbye to a core mechanic of your army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 12:48:20
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Ice_can wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
Xenos are not weak right now...definitely not worse than Imperium.
They might not be worse off than simgle pure sub faction or maybe faction lists.
But with the exception of the pointy eared cheese masters they can't pull the 3 detachments = 3 codex's of imperial or choas soup.
Soup allows cherry picking to create some broken interactions, and I would say is still the top dog of most unbalanced.
Mono codex vrs xeno is closer to balanced. Aslong as you didn't get a poor codex.
Soup in a small DW detachment and oh for a CP say goodbye to a core mechanic of your army.
Okay, so we're disqualifying the "pointy eared cheese masters" (Amazing how quickly people pick up the attitude of "all eldar are broken" just weeks after Drukhari get their first non-terrible codex in five years and Harlequins have been terrible all edition)
and we're disqualifying Tyranids and Genestealer cult, because they can do three detachments = 3 factions, one of those factions can even be the King Kahunas of Dakka Whining, the imperial guard. Guess whose players almost universally decided to just take Tyranid detachments in this london GT though?
so we have Necrons, Tau, and Orks without allies. Tau seem to be doing just fine with just mixing subfactions to be on par with imperials, given their recent tournament successes. Orks are still in the index. So are we specifically complaining just about Necrons?
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 13:04:56
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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the_scotsman wrote:Ice_can wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Problem being xenos as a whole being generally worse of than Imperium who now even gets extra tools for their larger toolboxes. What does xenos get? Often weaker armies, waaaaaay less soup options and do they get any anti-imperium strategems? Not much. Or any. Has there been any anti-imperium strategem? Even for specific sub-imperium faction?
Xenos are not weak right now...definitely not worse than Imperium.
They might not be worse off than simgle pure sub faction or maybe faction lists.
But with the exception of the pointy eared cheese masters they can't pull the 3 detachments = 3 codex's of imperial or choas soup.
Soup allows cherry picking to create some broken interactions, and I would say is still the top dog of most unbalanced.
Mono codex vrs xeno is closer to balanced. Aslong as you didn't get a poor codex.
Soup in a small DW detachment and oh for a CP say goodbye to a core mechanic of your army.
Okay, so we're disqualifying the "pointy eared cheese masters" (Amazing how quickly people pick up the attitude of "all eldar are broken" just weeks after Drukhari get their first non-terrible codex in five years and Harlequins have been terrible all edition)
and we're disqualifying Tyranids and Genestealer cult, because they can do three detachments = 3 factions, one of those factions can even be the King Kahunas of Dakka Whining, the imperial guard. Guess whose players almost universally decided to just take Tyranid detachments in this london GT though?
so we have Necrons, Tau, and Orks without allies. Tau seem to be doing just fine with just mixing subfactions to be on par with imperials, given their recent tournament successes. Orks are still in the index. So are we specifically complaining just about Necrons?
Eldar have aslong as I've played GW and I agree have had good & bad codex's are the only race that consistently across multiple editions got the here is the core rules everyone has to follow, except eldar you can ignore atleast one core mechanic.
I actually thing GW is finally starting to produce something remotely resembling balance expect soup.
Which I believe fundamentally unbalanceable due to the stacking of interactions that in mono faction are ok to weak, soup takes them to some odd places that balancing for would make them unplayable 95% of the time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 13:33:18
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It's worth noting that for Imperium to get this anti-Xenos tech, they have to take their version of Necrons instead of their version of Eldar, so....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/04 14:30:35
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator
California
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I'm happy with the Teasers as it is nice to see some that were not just pulled from past Codex releases. Sure some are less effective, or would be stronger for another Faction, but I like the obvious Xenos focus.
I'm more curious to see how the points shake out as basic Marines are hurting across the board. Higher costs limit what you are able to fit in a list and we lack the Toughness of other Elite Armies. With all the Wargear available I would like to see Bikers have more options too as I feel the basic shooty KT loadouts are already set (2 Frag, 2 SS w/Bolters, Bolter and CS or PS). Bike Squads could work to move up with a Corvus/Razorback if they could provide more powerful shooting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 08:05:29
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Dakka Veteran
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So, Winter's video says the teleportarium strat applies to dreads. I am now envisioning a dual grav bombard or dual SCA Leviathan dropping in 18-24" away, rerolling wounds of 1, and getting +1 to wound. Somebody just got bumped to the top of the painting queue!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 12:05:37
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
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It's almost as if Strats are there to help turn the battle and not be crutch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 12:16:58
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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RogueApiary wrote:So, Winter's video says the teleportarium strat applies to dreads. I am now envisioning a dual grav bombard or dual SCA Leviathan dropping in 18-24" away, rerolling wounds of 1, and getting +1 to wound. Somebody just got bumped to the top of the painting queue!
It will be codex dreadnoughts. All previous books go by datasheet name and not keyword.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 18:21:21
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Dakka Veteran
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Daedalus81 wrote:RogueApiary wrote:So, Winter's video says the teleportarium strat applies to dreads. I am now envisioning a dual grav bombard or dual SCA Leviathan dropping in 18-24" away, rerolling wounds of 1, and getting +1 to wound. Somebody just got bumped to the top of the painting queue!
It will be codex dreadnoughts. All previous books go by datasheet name and not keyword.
Custodes teleportarium is keyword Dreadnought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 18:51:42
Subject: Re:New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Damsel of the Lady
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RogueApiary wrote:So, Winter's video says the teleportarium strat applies to dreads. I am now envisioning a dual grav bombard or dual SCA Leviathan dropping in 18-24" away, rerolling wounds of 1, and getting +1 to wound. Somebody just got bumped to the top of the painting queue!
With -1 to Hit because he'll count as having moved :(
I do like it though. I don't like having to field a normal Dread or HS just so I can add a Leviathan on (while Chaos can just take their Leviathans in any quantity they want), but it's a start.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 18:53:57
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 19:16:34
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ice_can wrote:A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
No, they are explicitly allowed to be from the Deathwatch Chapter per the FAQ.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 19:18:41
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Dakka Veteran
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Ice_can wrote:A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
Luckily for me, you are wrong. Deathwatch is a chapter.
Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 19:21:08
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dionysodorus wrote:Ice_can wrote:A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
No, they are explicitly allowed to be from the Deathwatch Chapter per the FAQ.
My bad missed that.
But fluff wise they shouldn't have legion era units, and certainly are not a chapter but 8th edition rules continue to bend fluff to sell models.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 19:32:28
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ice_can wrote:Dionysodorus wrote:Ice_can wrote:A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
No, they are explicitly allowed to be from the Deathwatch Chapter per the FAQ.
My bad missed that.
But fluff wise they shouldn't have legion era units, and certainly are not a chapter but 8th edition rules continue to bend fluff to sell models.
Maybe that Leviathan Dread is now a Blackshield or something? I think it's workable.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 20:11:16
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
Ottawa
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Ice_can wrote:Dionysodorus wrote:Ice_can wrote:A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
No, they are explicitly allowed to be from the Deathwatch Chapter per the FAQ.
My bad missed that.
But fluff wise they shouldn't have legion era units, and certainly are not a chapter but 8th edition rules continue to bend fluff to sell models.
Completely false.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/05 20:25:34
Subject: New DW Strats - am I the only one unimpressed?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ice_can wrote:Dionysodorus wrote:Ice_can wrote:A leviathan has to be chapter, something that deathwatch isn't, same for all forgeworld dreadnaughts. So if it says a deathwatch x your not using it on a forgeworld dread.
No, they are explicitly allowed to be from the Deathwatch Chapter per the FAQ.
My bad missed that.
But fluff wise they shouldn't have legion era units, and certainly are not a chapter but 8th edition rules continue to bend fluff to sell models.
Except they certainly are and they certainly can if such is deemed necessary, as that is their schtick. To quote Lexicanum:
The Deathwatch are a unique and specially trained Space Marine Chapter that dedicates its every hour to xenos hunting. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos, charged with protecting it in its search of information, containment, and ultimate destruction of all xeno species. Consisting of Battle-Brothers drawn from many Chapters, the Deathwatch operates from Watch Fortresses and Watch Stations across the whole of the Imperium.
Usually, a Deathwatch team is led by an Inquisitor, but in extreme circumstances, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may take command of the unit. Their word is law, and can requisition anything they desire to complete their objective. They are the best armed and trained units in the Imperium.
Them being a chapter, although an unorthodox one, has been established in the lore for very long.
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