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Marmatag wrote: You keep saying "access to D3 damage" like it means something. It's a strength 4 gun with 0 AP, 24" range, and is heavy. That flat out sucks my good sir.
And per point Grey Knights do not have efficient access to mortal wounds.
Yeah, it does mean something. Its dirt cheap and has 6 shots. Volume of fire is the operative term here, which is magnified by the fact that each unsaved wound deals D3 damage. A gauss cannon is 20 points. It has 3 shots S6 AP-3 D3 damage. For the price of that you can have 30 S4 AP0 D3 damage shots, which can be buffed to S5 AP-1 through a stratagem. Both have the same range. You can potentially kill more with the psilencers, as even with the weaker shots there are just so many dice being rolled that it doesn't matter. That's like terminator killing 101, and its even easier with the multi-damage. And you can still shoot through walls.
Can you name a high RoF weapon that's cheap and deals multiple damage per wound? Because I can't. And then you have the fact that nearly every melee weapon deals multiple damage. Which again is strong. No other army has that. They just have to make it into combat. And then survive afterwards.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't think they're terrible, but I have to defer to players with more experience with them.
One problem I have with them is the built-in cost of the nemesis weapons and then trading the weapon out for a special without reducing the base model cost. It just makes the special weapons unattractive. And having the nemesis weapons steers you away from having proper shooting units, because you're paying for the damn things all the time.
Psybolts are killer. Strike Squads are a great unit.
210 points for 40 S5 AP1 shots from a Strike Squad who can get 2A each with pairs of Nemesis Falchions. The 2 CP is steep, but probably warranted. So that basically forces them to use guard to be able to use if often enough. Some people don't like that and that's ok. 152 for 5 Purgators w/ 4 Psycannons is 16 S8 AP2 (but only D1... and 2 CP).
Other things I like...
Teleporting dreadnoughts Fight again on death dreadknight Double jump Interceptors
But it's all very CP intensive. You run out fast.
Psycannons aren't as good as psilencers though. 4 psilencers tend to out perform 4 psycannons for cheaper. Which isn't good design. Strike squads are deadly, but I found that if they don't make the charge they die quickly, especially to gauss weapons. They do have a lot of shots which is pretty nice, especially at short range. Until they start taking losses, that is.
The purgators are only really scary with astral aim as they could avoid return fire that way. Without that power it would be easy to shoot them out of cover, as due to their high cost they tend to be in small numbers. A base model is like 20 points. Giving one a psycannon kicks it up to around 35 points. Which is pretty high for a single wound model. You don't even get much fire power out of it. I swear GW screwed up and swapped the damage stat for the psycannon and psilencer.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/05 01:01:03
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Quickjager wrote: Most Tau ion weapons? That are bad literally because they have a trash platform something a GK player understands.
Disintegration cannons.
Autocannons.
Anything with cannon in the name actually. Like ectoplasma cannons etc.
Which tau ion weapons? Because none of them are 4 points with 6 shots, D3 damage and can be spammed. Autocannons are still 2 shots. Is 2 more than 6? Are they 4 points? Disintegrator cannons are 3 shots and are certainly not 4 points each and still can't be spammed as much.
None of these have the RoF + multi damage that psilencers have. Try again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/05 00:31:08
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
But please tell me how amazing my 30 point model is at killing two 5 point models a turn at range is... that D3 really helps there right? Or maybe there the Str 4 will help me punch out that armored vehicle right? The AP0 will surely help me against that custodes.
Its like you are ignoring the fact GW didn't in fact mess up anything. They literally just can't math out the concept of statistics and apply appropriate costs based off that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow got 404'ed there after typing out a explanation.... and it is all gone.
So I'll give the quick answer. If Space Marines were able to take psilencers, they would not. Why is that? Because it is not a good weapon in the army of elites. It cannot reach the level of saturation where it becomes the monster you appear to believe it is.
Quick example.
I want to hit a specific unit of my enemy I have two options of getting my squad there RIGHT away.
I take Pallies who then take 2 psilencers, I will probably not achieve the saturation needed but it DOES make my pallies better but Pallies are overcosted in the first place so I am reducing my overall psilencer amount in the army.
I spend a CP on deepstriking a purgation squad. I have 4 psilencers in this case, I probably hit the saturation level needed to kill my target. But the squad is dead next turn. Worse I used a deepstrike slot which means I am footslogging something that would probably have been more effective over a longer period of the game up the board.
Then there is another option that fails to address the RIGHT AWAY part.
I take a Stormraven and put the purgation squad in. But this is rather hilariously expensive.
Psilencers would be good in any non elite army but they aren't. So they suck.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/05 00:43:40
Quickjager wrote: But please tell me how amazing my 30 point model is at killing two 5 point models a turn at range is... that D3 really helps there right? Or maybe there the Str 4 will help me punch out that armored vehicle right? The AP0 will surely help me against that custodes.
Its like you are ignoring the fact GW didn't in fact mess up anything. They literally just can't math out the concept of statistics and apply appropriate costs based off that.
Oh no, they did mess up. I'm pretty sure I wrote that earlier. The design is a mess. The psilencer specifically is good. The rest...not so much. Everything is too expensive, too fragile and depends on getting in an alpha strike to cripple the enemy before they get whooped. Which is neutered by the DS beta rule. This isn't healthy. GK do need an overhaul, and I don't think simple points cuts would do it, as you'd have to faction all of the psy powers and multi damage weapons they have. Multiple damage is quite useful. Try shooting a small squad of necron destroyers with 24 psilencer shots. You might be surprised at how many 5+s you roll for damage. Even against vehicles it can be surprisingly effective, as each unsaved could take 3 wounds. Not bad for a 4 point weapon. Pity about the 20 or so point platform though. To compare, a destroyer is 30 points, faster, has more wounds and gets rerolls. The gun costs more though, which does kick it up a bit.
Also, if scat lasers were the bane of 7th ed and mass lasgun fire is viable for killing terminators, then logically a weapon like the psilencer would be great
What if you deepstruck the purgation squad behind a solid block of terrain and used astral sight to shoot whilst staying hidden from return fire? Wouldn't that increase their longevity? Granted, that is situational and depends on board setup, but is a possible tactic.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/05/05 01:00:10
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
But please tell me how amazing my 30 point model is at killing two 5 point models a turn at range is... that D3 really helps there right? Or maybe there the Str 4 will help me punch out that armored vehicle right? The AP0 will surely help me against that custodes.
Its like you are ignoring the fact GW didn't in fact mess up anything. They literally just can't math out the concept of statistics and apply appropriate costs based off that.
They're more than capable, but I think they have a vision for the army that doesn't quite meet expectations.
Everyone having a force sword is cool, but you're literally adding 8 points to every single model. Which, coincidentally is why Strike Squads are awesome - they're basically an 11 point marine and get a free dual-wield with force weapons and can take a storm bolter.
If I played GK my list would literally be this. Astral Aim on the DK with H Psycannons. Draigo up front with teleporting DKs w/ psycannons and 10 man SS.
SS get Psybolts. One DK gets Onslaught.
That comes to 40 S5 AP1, 24 S5 AP1 D3, and 24 S4 AP0 D3 with full rerolls.
Explain how common access to mortal wounds and D3 damage is a bad thing, compared to every other army.
d3 damage. Whee I'm impressed. And raise bar by my spammable plasma gun that has superior D2.
And before you point it out yes only 1-2 shots. Also S8. On cheaper platform so you can field tons and are more survivable than your psilencer. And since damage isn't only sthick it has more versatile. I know which one I'll take if I want to field for a shooting match.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/05 04:38:07
I don't understand why people complain about the cost of nemesis weapons and the fact they lose out when trading for special weapons. Have you thought that the special weapons themselves are reduced in cost because of the need to replace a nemesis weapon? A psilencer is 4pts....for 6 shots at S4 D3 damage. a HVy Bolter is 10pts for only 3 shots S5 Ap-1 1 damage. Pretty sure you are paying less for that hvy weapon than a regular marine would have to pay. Or compare the psycannon instead....+2 S and +1 ROF for just 4 pts more than that Hvy Bolter.
Forget that, let's go for the direct comparison...Hvy flamer vs Incinerator. Hvy flamer is 17pts, incinerator is 14pts. The incinerator has +1S over the Hvy flamer and is 3 pts cheaper. You are not losing out on points by dropping the nemesis weapons because the special weapons are priced with this in mind.
Explain how common access to mortal wounds and D3 damage is a bad thing, compared to every other army.
d3 damage. Whee I'm impressed. And raise bar by my spammable plasma gun that has superior D2.
And before you point it out yes only 1-2 shots. Also S8. On cheaper platform so you can field tons and are more survivable than your psilencer. And since damage isn't only sthick it has more versatile. I know which one I'll take if I want to field for a shooting match.
They also have a chance of dying unless you are baby sitting the plasma with a character. And if the psilencer was on a cheaper platform, which would you take? That's the problem the GK's balance; if you start reducing base costs that would just incentivize people to take more psilencers because they are more efficient than anything else in the book. That's not a good thing. The damage stat should really be swapped with psycannon's, because if you paying more than 10 points for a heavy weapon you'd expect more than 1 damage. For the same total points cost a psilencer outperforms a psycannon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/05 07:55:20
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
bullyboy wrote: I don't understand why people complain about the cost of nemesis weapons and the fact they lose out when trading for special weapons. Have you thought that the special weapons themselves are reduced in cost because of the need to replace a nemesis weapon? A psilencer is 4pts....for 6 shots at S4 D3 damage. a HVy Bolter is 10pts for only 3 shots S5 Ap-1 1 damage. Pretty sure you are paying less for that hvy weapon than a regular marine would have to pay. Or compare the psycannon instead....+2 S and +1 ROF for just 4 pts more than that Hvy Bolter.
Forget that, let's go for the direct comparison...Hvy flamer vs Incinerator. Hvy flamer is 17pts, incinerator is 14pts. The incinerator has +1S over the Hvy flamer and is 3 pts cheaper. You are not losing out on points by dropping the nemesis weapons because the special weapons are priced with this in mind.
Yea, maybe, but like I said I don't have tons of experience playing the army. I see builds that look really decent. Overall I think the need for CP to make them function well on top of the high cost makes it hard. The characters, for example, are crazy points. Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment. Does it mean they need a ton of buffs? No, but a few things would be helpful.
Like some other units that are questionably priced. Purifiers are 26 points and they're basically a strike squad, but they 7 points per model for a 3" D6 smite.
Daedalus81 wrote: Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment.
That's the case for any Imperial faction right now. You can't be competitive unless you build in some guard. Your list will always be worse for their absence.
Yea, maybe, but like I said I don't have tons of experience playing the army. I see builds that look really decent. Overall I think the need for CP to make them function well on top of the high cost makes it hard. The characters, for example, are crazy points. Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment. Does it mean they need a ton of buffs? No, but a few things would be helpful.
Well all Imperium armies are expected to ally and you are gimping yourself if you don't. Sure you can not soup up but then you are losing out on power.
Imperium is one faction and you need to look it as what used to be one codex. Various tools to use as combined. That's GW style 2018.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/05 18:11:53
So, maybe I should cut in here with the reason as to WHY I am dropping my GKs for Custodes. Because they are statistically better in EVERY regard, for roughly the same amount of points. The GKs have lore, and that's it. Otherwise they have become an extremely situational force, that still sucks at it's job compared to less costly alternatives.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, maybe I should cut in here with the reason as to WHY I am dropping my GKs for Custodes. Because they are statistically better in EVERY regard, for roughly the same amount of points. The GKs have lore, and that's it. Otherwise they have become an extremely situational force, that still sucks at it's job compared to less costly alternatives.
What is the analogue to the dreadknight grandmaster?
The DKGM seems to punch above it's point cost.
282 points for...
3 Vertus Praetors w/ Lance, HB, and misericordia (the common loadout)
That comes to 12 T6 wounds with 2+/5++
WS/BS2
Melee: 12A @ S6 AP3 D3 and 3A @ S5 AP2 D1
Shooting: 18 to 36 S4 AP0 shots
A DK Grandmaster, 2x Fist, 2x GP is 265 for...
12 T6 wounds with a 2+/4++ (better)
WS/BS2 (exactly the same)
Melee: 6 S12 AP3 D3
Shooting: 24 S4 AP0 D3
The DKGM does 6.5 wounds to Vertus in melee.
The Vertus would otherwise do 4.5 / 8 (on the charge).
If the DKGM has the Nemesis trait it will do 9.7 wounds.
If it has a 3++ up then t will receive only 4 / 5.3 wounds.
With boosted shooting the DKGM can kill a Vertus and wound another.
The Vertus even at 36 shots could only hope for a couple wounds at best.
So, if Custodes are the most amazing thing ever and when people take them it's almost always 9 Vertus for ~1,000 points then why, when the DKGM is quite formidable compared to them are GK not considered in the same vein?
There are many elements in the GK army that can be quite strong. And, it seems that Custodes almost always pair with IG. So, if allying with IG was a problem for GK why is it not a problem for Custodes?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/07 16:13:09
The shield captains would have 2+/4++ and a 6+ against mortal wounds from psychic powers. They are also charictors so can be difficult to target with a suitable weapon to burn through 7 T6 wounds. And that mobility really patches a massive weakness of IG mobility.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, maybe I should cut in here with the reason as to WHY I am dropping my GKs for Custodes. Because they are statistically better in EVERY regard, for roughly the same amount of points. The GKs have lore, and that's it. Otherwise they have become an extremely situational force, that still sucks at it's job compared to less costly alternatives.
What is the analogue to the dreadknight grandmaster?
The DKGM seems to punch above it's point cost.
282 points for...
3 Vertus Praetors w/ Lance, HB, and misericordia (the common loadout)
That comes to 12 T6 wounds with 2+/5++
WS/BS2
Melee: 12A @ S6 AP3 D3 and 3A @ S5 AP2 D1
Shooting: 18 to 36 S4 AP0 shots
A DK Grandmaster, 2x Fist, 2x GP is 265 for...
12 T6 wounds with a 2+/4++ (better)
WS/BS2 (exactly the same)
Melee: 6 S12 AP3 D3
Shooting: 24 S4 AP0 D3
The DKGM does 6.5 wounds to Vertus in melee.
The Vertus would otherwise do 4.5 / 8 (on the charge).
If the DKGM has the Nemesis trait it will do 9.7 wounds.
If it has a 3++ up then t will receive only 4 / 5.3 wounds.
With boosted shooting the DKGM can kill a Vertus and wound another.
The Vertus even at 36 shots could only hope for a couple wounds at best.
So, if Custodes are the most amazing thing ever and when people take them it's almost always 9 Vertus for ~1,000 points then why, when the DKGM is quite formidable compared to them are GK not considered in the same vein?
There are many elements in the GK army that can be quite strong. And, it seems that Custodes almost always pair with IG. So, if allying with IG was a problem for GK why is it not a problem for Custodes?
Talk about a vacuum analysis. First off, Custodes Jetbikes have a 4++ and are Objective Secured. You have them as a 5++.
A Dreadknight Grandmaster can't Deep Strike outside his deployment zone on T1 and only walks 8". Jetbikes moves 14" and can basically be almost anywhere you need them by end of movement T2.
3 Hurricane Bolters is 36 shots in rapid fire range which is waaaaaay more valuable than the 12/6 of a Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon (which, by the way, are Heavy weapons so the GMDK gets -1 to Hit if he moves before firing them). You can horde bust OR chip tanks.
If you wanted a straight up fight between the two, the Jetbikes almost certainly get the charge on the Dreadknight thanks to their extra 6" movement.
The Custodes also have access to a -1 to Hit Aura which the GK do not have in their entire army.
A GKDM who deep strikes in and shoots at Jetbikes with both guns averages 5 wounds (and that's if they're NOT in range of a vexilla). The two bikes remaining shooting and charging average a bit over 8. The GMDK, if he's lucky enough to not degrade, only kills one Jetbike in return and leaves one alive.
But this is the wrong comparison anyway. The proper response is a Jetbike Captain.
So tricking out a GMDK with EVERYTHING gets you a 3++ plus the above stats with +1S and -1AP guns. Tricking out one Jetbike Captain gets you a 2+/3++, Victor of the Blood Games and -1 to Hit from Radiant Mantle. This only costs 164 points.
Now make them fight.
GMDK drops in and shoots. He gets -2 to Hit because he moved and Radiant Mantle. The Psilencer averages 1.5 wounds with a 45% chance of doing ZERO wounds (and I didn't even factor in Victor of the Blood Games). The Psycannon averages .67 with a 67% chance of doing ZERO wounds.
The Captain shoots 12 Hurricane Bolter shots. Averages .65 wounds with a 51% chance of doing zero.
Captain charges. 2.55 combining Lance and Misericordia. GKDM swings back with a -1 to Hit thanks to Radiant Mantle. The GMDK averages 3 wounds with a 39% chance of doing ZERO (even higher chance when you factor in Victor of the Blood Games). Assuming this started on T2 (earliest time GMDK can deep strike outside deployment zone), the GMDK won't eliminate the Captain on average until T4 with decent odds they're still swinging in T5. At any time, the Captain can just decide to leave thanks to Fly and go shoot something while moving 14" away over terrain. And he costs more than 120 points less than the GMDK.
If you actually have a GK army Vs. a Custodes army, everything that's not a Storm Bolter is going to be facing a -2 to Hit because of the fact they're Heavy and the Vexilla Magnifica. The Custodes can just kite and shoot them into oblivion with mass bolter fire for 2-3 rounds then charge the center for board control.
Ice_can wrote: The shield captains would have 2+/4++ and a 6+ against mortal wounds from psychic powers. They are also charictors so can be difficult to target with a suitable weapon to burn through 7 T6 wounds. And that mobility really patches a massive weakness of IG mobility.
Yea the shield captains certainly abuse character targeting and they're great against people who brought no melee.
You're paying for 32 points per attack instead of ~23 with the Vertus. He's still only S6. The DKGM w/ Nemesis could crush him in a round or at least put him to 2 wounds. The captain can throw down 3.8 wounds on a charge, but 2.5 otherwise.
The captain gets the fight twice on death for 2 CP yet GK has the same thing for 1 CP. Stooping dive is cool, I guess.
The GKDM can smite though, and it's a vehicle so it has a 5+++ vs mortal wounds when it needs it.
I'm not really seeing where Custodes are amazingly better.
The problem with Custodes is they are the fan wishlist GK players submitted to GW back in 7th, that GW then gave to Custodes instead of GK. There’s going to be salt over that burn for ages to come.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Daedalus81 wrote: Sure they can ally IG, but many don't want to do that to make their army "work" and there's nothing wrong with that sentiment.
That's the case for any Imperial faction right now. You can't be competitive unless you build in some guard. Your list will always be worse for their absence.
This is true. But you may as well add in Custodes Bike Captains too. They're too good and cheap not to include them.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Talk about a vacuum analysis. First off, Custodes Jetbikes have a 4++ and are Objective Secured. You have them as a 5++.
How exactly are bikes getting 4++?
A Dreadknight Grandmaster can't Deep Strike outside his deployment zone on T1 and only walks 8". Jetbikes moves 14" and can basically be almost anywhere you need them by end of movement T2.
Not really seeing the deepstrike issue here. I already mentioned the movement.
3 Hurricane Bolters is 36 shots in rapid fire range which is waaaaaay more valuable than the 12/6 of a Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon (which, by the way, are Heavy weapons so the GMDK gets -1 to Hit if he moves before firing them). You can horde bust OR chip tanks.
Already mentioned the move penalty. It's somewhat moot on a 3+ to hit with reroll 1s and if you come into range of him, well...
HBs need to be within 12" for 36 shots - 18 otherwise. GP is 24" for 24. So we're very clearly sitting at the average. GP has D3. GP can become S5 AP1. There is way more potential for the GP. The GP will be MUCH better at chipping tanks.
If you wanted a straight up fight between the two, the Jetbikes almost certainly get the charge on the Dreadknight thanks to their extra 6" movement.
Last I knew they can't run and charge. What did I miss? I searched the whole codex by keyword and it didn't come up.
The Custodes also have access to a -1 to Hit Aura which the GK do not have in their entire army.
Yep - super handy. You'll also outrun that with bikes.
A GKDM who deep strikes in and shoots at Jetbikes with both guns averages 5 wounds (and that's if they're NOT in range of a vexilla). The two bikes remaining shooting and charging average a bit over 8. The GMDK, if he's lucky enough to not degrade, only kills one Jetbike in return and leaves one alive.
I'm not sure why I would ever deepstrike on bikes. I mentioned deepstrike, because it's a useful tool. Not a panacea.
But this is the wrong comparison anyway. The proper response is a Jetbike Captain.
Sure, no doubt. People mostly do either bikes or captains on bikes.
So tricking out a GMDK with EVERYTHING gets you a 3++ plus the above stats with +1S and -1AP guns. Tricking out one Jetbike Captain gets you a 2+/3++, Victor of the Blood Games and -1 to Hit from Radiant Mantle. This only costs 164 points.
So, totally would never DS on a captain. That's pants on head silly.
What i'd actually do is let him come to me. You need to be within 24" to make the HBs work anyway.
So, you shoot me. 18 * .972 * .333 * .167 = 0.97
My turn, I shoot you with Onslaught on. 24 * .777 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 4 wounds (with onslaught)
I mean...I probably CAN'T shoot you, but you get the idea. Overwatch could scratch a wound, maybe. Like you said Captain charges and gets ~2.5. DKGM gets 3.9 not 3 (You get radiant I get Nemesis). 6 * .777 * .833 * .333 * 3 = 3.87.
It's my turn next. You'll die.
If you actually have a GK army Vs. a Custodes army, everything that's not a Storm Bolter is going to be facing a -2 to Hit because of the fact they're Heavy and the Vexilla Magnifica. The Custodes can just kite and shoot them into oblivion with mass bolter fire for 2-3 rounds then charge the center for board control.
I play both armies heavily. It's no contest.
I don't play them, but i'm not seeing it. Custodes have advantages. GK have advantages. Custodes are easier to afford, paint, and use - i'll give you that.
Also it CAN'T be ignored that the DKGM can be targeting by anti-tank and the captain can not. Solid disadvantage there, which files under 'easy to use'.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/07 17:16:10
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The problem with Custodes is they are the fan wishlist GK players submitted to GW back in 7th, that GW then gave to Custodes instead of GK. There’s going to be salt over that burn for ages to come.
SJ
Pretty much this.
4++ built in? They got it.
Extra wound? They got it.
Better melee? They got it.
Jetbikes? They got it.
In 5th there was an ability called Shrouding that made it -1 to hit the unit that cast the psychic power. In 6th+ it gave a cover save. I said making it -1 to hit and accessible for the unit that cast it and everything in a bubble around it would make it a good return to form. Custodes got it as a banner.
Putting the question of GK aside completely, what store manager (at a GW or FLGS) would want to talk you out of spending more money at their shop? If they don't sell more models, they don't make money. If they don't make money, they will eventually end up closing their doors.
Something isn't right...
SG
40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers
*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. ***
A Dreadknight Grandmaster can't Deep Strike outside his deployment zone on T1 and only walks 8". Jetbikes moves 14" and can basically be almost anywhere you need them by end of movement T2.
Not really seeing the deepstrike issue here. I already mentioned the movement.
It's huge. If you're taking a GMDK as a mobile gun platform you already lost or it's gonna get alpha striked. You put it in reserve to protect it and guarantee damage. The bikes don't have this handicap because they're faster, durable, have Fly and don't get penalties for moving.
3 Hurricane Bolters is 36 shots in rapid fire range which is waaaaaay more valuable than the 12/6 of a Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon (which, by the way, are Heavy weapons so the GMDK gets -1 to Hit if he moves before firing them). You can horde bust OR chip tanks.
Already mentioned the move penalty. It's somewhat moot on a 3+ to hit with reroll 1s and if you come into range of him, well...
It's not moot in the slightest. It lowers the wounds.
HBs need to be within 12" for 36 shots - 18 otherwise. GP is 24" for 24. So we're very clearly sitting at the average. GP has D3. GP can become S5 AP1. There is way more potential for the GP. The GP will be MUCH better at chipping tanks.
Even if a GMDK deep strikes at 24" away from the hurricane bolter, the 14" move gets them within 10" immediately in response. They will ALWAYS be in rapid fire range.
S4 and S5 are both wounding most tanks (T7) on 5's. The extra shots equal more damage than the -1 AP and -1 to Hit the GMDK will incur trying to keep tanks in range with 8" move and 24" guns (32" maximum threat range rather than 36", only 24" without -1 to Hit penalty).
If you wanted a straight up fight between the two, the Jetbikes almost certainly get the charge on the Dreadknight thanks to their extra 6" movement.
Last I knew they can't run and charge. What did I miss? I searched the whole codex by keyword and it didn't come up.
14-8=6. :p
The Custodes also have access to a -1 to Hit Aura which the GK do not have in their entire army.
Yep - super handy. You'll also outrun that with bikes.
Not really. Vexilla starts on the board and moves+advances 9.5" average on T1, with a 6" range thats 15.5" out from deployment zone edge of cover. T2 he can not move to make it 12" range with a strat OR you can deep strike in a second Vexilla with Terminator armor. All you have to do is snake a single Jetbike into range from each squad. You've got at least 2 turns of protection. 3 if your opponent ALSO has to advance up to fight (like GK).
A GKDM who deep strikes in and shoots at Jetbikes with both guns averages 5 wounds (and that's if they're NOT in range of a vexilla). The two bikes remaining shooting and charging average a bit over 8. The GMDK, if he's lucky enough to not degrade, only kills one Jetbike in return and leaves one alive.
I'm not sure why I would ever deepstrike on bikes. I mentioned deepstrike, because it's a useful tool. Not a panacea.
If you don't, then the Bikes can potentially nail you before your get to do damage (or a Caladius or one of Custodes Forgeworld Dreads).
But this is the wrong comparison anyway. The proper response is a Jetbike Captain.
Sure, no doubt. People mostly do either bikes or captains on bikes.
I meant as a direct comparison to the GMDK.
So tricking out a GMDK with EVERYTHING gets you a 3++ plus the above stats with +1S and -1AP guns. Tricking out one Jetbike Captain gets you a 2+/3++, Victor of the Blood Games and -1 to Hit from Radiant Mantle. This only costs 164 points.
So, totally would never DS on a captain. That's pants on head silly.
You don't. The Captain will find you almost no matter where you land against a Custodes force.
What i'd actually do is let him come to me. You need to be within 24" to make the HBs work anyway.
Not really? The Custodes player can use fly to block LoS in terrain and camp objectives with ObSec on bikes. They have no need to come to you. The GK player MUST come to the Custodes player, by contrast. The Custodes will reach center board faster and in bigger numbers thanks to higher move and no T1 deep strike restrictions.
So, you shoot me. 18 * .972 * .333 * .167 = 0.97
My turn, I shoot you with Onslaught on. 24 * .777 * .333 * .333 * 2 = 4 wounds (with onslaught)
I mean...I probably CAN'T shoot you, but you get the idea. Overwatch could scratch a wound, maybe. Like you said Captain charges and gets ~2.5. DKGM gets 3.9 not 3 (You get radiant I get Nemesis). 6 * .777 * .833 * .333 * 3 = 3.87.
It's my turn next. You'll die.
Your math is off. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. Nemesis weapons have no bonus against Custodes. Try using this:
12 Hurricane Bolter shots hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's is .65 average wounds.
Onslaught on Psilencer with -2 penalty is .1.55 (and 45% chance of zero, so almost half the time it'll do nil).
Onslaught Psycannon isn't much better. 1.81 average with 38% chance of zero.
And this is assuming you even get to shoot. If you're not deep striking...you very well might not.
Overwatch isn't even worth mentioning (88% and 77% chance of doing zero damage each).
In melee, the Captain averages 2.55 on the charge and the GMDK averages 3.02 but with a 39% chance of zero. That's before Victor. Basically, you're getting a single unsaved wound through when not degraded, but Victor lets the Captain re-roll that failed invulnerable save with a 2/3 chance of saving it. The end result being that the average is misleading you: in any particular round of combat the GMDK is as likely to do 0 damage as any damage (if not more so).
If you actually have a GK army Vs. a Custodes army, everything that's not a Storm Bolter is going to be facing a -2 to Hit because of the fact they're Heavy and the Vexilla Magnifica. The Custodes can just kite and shoot them into oblivion with mass bolter fire for 2-3 rounds then charge the center for board control.
The whole time they have this slap fight, the Captain is ObSec and can hold any objective the GMDK is trying to contest too.
I play both armies heavily. It's no contest.
I don't play them, but i'm not seeing it. Custodes have advantages. GK have advantages. Custodes are easier to afford, paint, and use - i'll give you that.
Also it CAN'T be ignored that the DKGM can be targeting by anti-tank and the captain can not. Solid disadvantage there, which files under 'easy to use'.
Look at the whole board.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 18:29:36
To many game store managers are hobbists first busniess men a distant second. sounds like your manager is this case. rather then selling you product it sounds like he's intreasted in pushing his opinion.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
It's huge. If you're taking a GMDK as a mobile gun platform you already lost or it's gonna get alpha striked. You put it in reserve to protect it and guarantee damage. The bikes don't have this handicap because they're faster, durable, have Fly and don't get penalties for moving.
Fly is a good point. I deny the alpha strike problem. It's safer to be out now and based on the London GT there are not a plethora of anti-tank. The ubiquity of Custards proves that.
Even if a GMDK deep strikes at 24" away from the hurricane bolter, the 14" move gets them within 10" immediately in response. They will ALWAYS be in rapid fire range.
S4 and S5 are both wounding most tanks (T7) on 5's. The extra shots equal more damage than the -1 AP and -1 to Hit the GMDK will incur trying to keep tanks in range with 8" move and 24" guns (32" maximum threat range rather than 36", only 24" without -1 to Hit penalty).
Again though i'd never DS vs a fast melee unit. Even with a hit penalty the GP with onslaught WAY outperforms HBs and outperforms it in all other regards vs tanks. HB has an RF advantage vs infantry.
Not really. Vexilla starts on the board and moves+advances 9.5" average on T1, with a 6" range thats 15.5" out from deployment zone edge of cover. T2 he can not move to make it 12" range with a strat OR you can deep strike in a second Vexilla with Terminator armor. All you have to do is snake a single Jetbike into range from each squad. You've got at least 2 turns of protection. 3 if your opponent ALSO has to advance up to fight (like GK).
Ok fair enough, but we're looking at -1 army wide and -2 on a single character. Nothing insurmountable.
Not really? The Custodes player can use fly to block LoS in terrain and camp objectives with ObSec on bikes. They have no need to come to you. The GK player MUST come to the Custodes player, by contrast. The Custodes will reach center board faster and in bigger numbers thanks to higher move and no T1 deep strike restrictions.
There are table factors that are certainly in play. Again, I don't play say I can't comment on them specifically.
Your math is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. Nemesis weapons have no bonus against Custodes. Try using this:
Our assumptions are just different. If we're working it out as a -2 captain then you've got to figure in the 115ish points for the Praetor. Obviously he buffs other stuff so it's not straight, but you're spending up to meet the DKGM's power.
Why does Nemesis Lord not apply? I see no restrictions.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/07 18:38:40
It's huge. If you're taking a GMDK as a mobile gun platform you already lost or it's gonna get alpha striked. You put it in reserve to protect it and guarantee damage. The bikes don't have this handicap because they're faster, durable, have Fly and don't get penalties for moving.
Fly is a good point. I deny the alpha strike problem. It's safer to be out now and based on the London GT there are not a plethora of anti-tank. The ubiquity of Custards proves that.
Even if a GMDK deep strikes at 24" away from the hurricane bolter, the 14" move gets them within 10" immediately in response. They will ALWAYS be in rapid fire range.
S4 and S5 are both wounding most tanks (T7) on 5's. The extra shots equal more damage than the -1 AP and -1 to Hit the GMDK will incur trying to keep tanks in range with 8" move and 24" guns (32" maximum threat range rather than 36", only 24" without -1 to Hit penalty).
Again though i'd never DS vs a fast melee unit. Even with a hit penalty the GP with onslaught WAY outperforms HBs and outperforms it in all other regards vs tanks. HB has an RF advantage vs infantry.
Not really. Vexilla starts on the board and moves+advances 9.5" average on T1, with a 6" range thats 15.5" out from deployment zone edge of cover. T2 he can not move to make it 12" range with a strat OR you can deep strike in a second Vexilla with Terminator armor. All you have to do is snake a single Jetbike into range from each squad. You've got at least 2 turns of protection. 3 if your opponent ALSO has to advance up to fight (like GK).
Ok fair enough, but we're looking at -1 army wide and -2 on a single character. Nothing insurmountable.
Not really? The Custodes player can use fly to block LoS in terrain and camp objectives with ObSec on bikes. They have no need to come to you. The GK player MUST come to the Custodes player, by contrast. The Custodes will reach center board faster and in bigger numbers thanks to higher move and no T1 deep strike restrictions.
There are table factors that are certainly in play. Again, I don't play say I can't comment on them specifically.
Your math is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. Nemesis weapons have no bonus against Custodes. Try using this:
Our assumptions are just different. If we're working it out as a -2 captain then you've got to figure in the 115ish points for the Praetor. Obviously he buffs other stuff so it's not straight, but you're spending up to meet the DKGM's power.
Why does Nemesis Lord not apply? I see no restrictions.
Your tank comparison math is way off from the GMDK. After the -1 from moving, the GP is only averaging 3.11 wounds, not 6.2. It's 12 shots, not 24. GMDK's can't take two of the same gun. They have to take different ones for each slot.
I'm not including a Vexilla, that would make it -3. It's -1 for the GMDK moving and -1 for Radiant Mantle. Though now that I think of it, a Captain + a Vexilla is about the same price as a GMDK (270ish to 285).
Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).
I'm not sure what you meant by "Nemsis Lord", but Nemesis is what most their melee weapons are prefixed by. It used to give bonuses against Daemons but now doesn't mean anything besides just being the name (Nemesis Sword, Nemesis Daemonhammer, e.t.c.).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 18:46:52
ServiceGames wrote: Putting the question of GK aside completely, what store manager (at a GW or FLGS) would want to talk you out of spending more money at their shop? If they don't sell more models, they don't make money. If they don't make money, they will eventually end up closing their doors.
Something isn't right...
SG
Some people are themselves before managers.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
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