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Audustum wrote:


They have to take different ones for each slot.

Ahh - ok. Damn that is a really easy to miss word. Hmm. That stinks a little - not that i'd complain about the heavy psycannon personally. I'll have to think it through a little.

Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).

Right - I'm saying the meta has shifted away from things that threaten the GMDK.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Nemsis Lord", but Nemesis is what most their melee weapons are prefixed by. It used to give bonuses against Daemons but now doesn't mean anything besides just being the name (Nemesis Sword, Nemesis Daemonhammer, e.t.c.).

Sorry, yea, I can see where that got confusing real fast. I was referring to the warlord trait - +1 dmg to melee weapons (other than relics) with double fists.

Audustum wrote:

Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).

So psilencers with psybolt stratagem then? Because that pretty much follows your description.
Yes, it will require CP, but if you can delete or at least cripple a custodes squad with it, wouldn't that be worth it, as they tend to be few in number.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).

So psilencers with psybolt stratagem then? Because that pretty much follows your description.
Yes, it will require CP, but if you can delete or at least cripple a custodes squad with it, wouldn't that be worth it, as they tend to be few in number.

Too low strength, at least for Bikes. Not awful if you're peppering Custodian Guard or Allarus, but Bikes are T6 so you want S6+ weapons, preferably S7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Audustum wrote:


They have to take different ones for each slot.

Ahh - ok. Damn that is a really easy to miss word. Hmm. That stinks a little - not that i'd complain about the heavy psycannon personally. I'll have to think it through a little.

Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).

Right - I'm saying the meta has shifted away from things that threaten the GMDK.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Nemsis Lord", but Nemesis is what most their melee weapons are prefixed by. It used to give bonuses against Daemons but now doesn't mean anything besides just being the name (Nemesis Sword, Nemesis Daemonhammer, e.t.c.).

Sorry, yea, I can see where that got confusing real fast. I was referring to the warlord trait - +1 dmg to melee weapons (other than relics) with double fists.

Okay, I read it as the meta shifted away from bringing anti-tank for Custodes. Fair.

Right, the Warlord trait! I just assumed First to the Fray since I was working off a Deep Strike charge chance to minimize terrain interference. I will say though that most GK consider FttF near mandatory while Custodes generally view Radiant Mantle (-1), Superior Creation (5+++) or Impregnable Mind (DtW) to all be acceptable.

Audustum wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Also, anti-tank isn't what you take to stop Custodes. The rate of fire is just way too low and their invulns stop too much. You want high rate of fire 2 damage weapons with at least -1 AP. Stuff like Butcher Cannons, Storm Cannon Arrays and overcharged Plasma (though this is the worst of the 3).

So psilencers with psybolt stratagem then? Because that pretty much follows your description.
Yes, it will require CP, but if you can delete or at least cripple a custodes squad with it, wouldn't that be worth it, as they tend to be few in number.

Too low strength, at least for Bikes. Not awful if you're peppering Custodian Guard or Allarus, but Bikes are T6 so you want S6+ weapons, preferably S7.

Yeah, I can see that. 5+ to wound is still tough, even with the absurd RoF you get from them.

Every Grey Knights player takes first to the fray if they can. So much of Grey Knights is built around deep striking.

And seriously mathing out bike captains at 4++ is unfair. In practice 2 out of 3 will have a 3++, passively.

 Marmatag wrote:
Every Grey Knights player takes first to the fray if they can. So much of Grey Knights is built around deep striking.

And seriously mathing out bike captains at 4++ is unfair. In practice 2 out of 3 will have a 3++, passively.

Yes, but it still has a reasonable showing vs 3++.

The whole exercise still doesn't show much that Custards are a wide margin better mathematically. On the table i'm sure there are other advantages, but I still see some interesting plays available to GK.

Like two 5 man purifiers in a rhino. Park it 11" behind the front. Let the captain charge. Next turn hope out, move, and double D6 smite. No small amount of points for that though...

3++ is a 50% improvement in durability, and of course, being untargetable if there are other models closer is quite a big deal, as well as being relatively smaller so you can actually avoid LOS.

This exercise DOES show Custodes are mathematically superior.

Two 5 man purifiers in a rhino is a minimum of ~350 points, and you need to be within 3" to actually get that smite off.

It is beyond ridiculous that people come in here defending Grey Knights who obviously do not play Grey Knights. 350 points to potentially deal 7 damage is slowed. The Custodes player will have 2 manticores in the back for 70 points less and doesn't need to waddle up the board and hope their opponent is stupid enough to get in range of the 3" smite.

I mean maybe the math hammer shows they're the same if you think Custode captains have a 5++ instead of the 3++ they actually have. I mean wtf

 Marmatag wrote:
3++ is a 50% improvement in durability, and of course, being untargetable if there are other models closer is quite a big deal, as well as being relatively smaller so you can actually avoid LOS.

This exercise DOES show Custodes are mathematically superior.

Two 5 man purifiers in a rhino is a minimum of ~350 points, and you need to be within 3" to actually get that smite off.

It is beyond ridiculous that people come in here defending Grey Knights who obviously do not play Grey Knights. 350 points to potentially deal 7 damage is slowed. The Custodes player will have 2 manticores in the back for 70 points less and doesn't need to waddle up the board and hope their opponent is stupid enough to get in range of the 3" smite.

I mean maybe the math hammer shows they're the same if you think Custode captains have a 5++ instead of the 3++ they actually have. I mean wtf

No, I was fully up front that I don't play them. I made some points against them earlier. Someone else came in favor of them and it made my wheels spin.

I gave a captain 4++ initially not 5++.

350 points to potentially deal 7 damage is slowed.

Let's ponder that for a moment. Let's use this much touted -2 to hit captain.

4 BS3 lascannons do 1 damage to him.
4 BS3 Twin Assault Cannons do 2.7 damage

What do you think the equivalent points would be for those options to do 7 total damage?

A couple of manticores...could spend all game working on a GMDK. There's a 1 in 4 they could ace it in 2 turns if it never had it's 3++ up.

I play Grey Knights. I have for a long time. I’ve gotten them close, but it’s tough in the wide open 8th edition meta. They struggle with T8. More access to FW would go a long way to helping their weaknesses and would not require a codex overhaul.

Comparing GK to Custodes is a fair assessment. They are surprisingly close to one another. Bringing in Manticores or other ally units distorts the comparison. GK can bring in the same stuff and it turns into a Guard vs. Guard battle with a few GK and Custodes sprinkled in. In the ally world Custodes meet the power Null Zone and its all she wrote.

One thing the SCDE vs. GMDK debate did not touch on is the Grand Master can get a 2++ when needed. It costs a psychic power and 2cp and he needs to start on the board, but he becomes over the top when this happens.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

No, I was fully up front that I don't play them.

Thousand Sons are the best army in the game. Look at my math...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I play Grey Knights. I have for a long time. I’ve gotten them close, but it’s tough in the wide open 8th edition meta. They struggle with T8. More access to FW would go a long way to helping their weaknesses and would not require a codex overhaul.

Comparing GK to Custodes is a fair assessment. They are surprisingly close to one another. Bringing in Manticores or other ally units distorts the comparison. GK can bring in the same stuff and it turns into a Guard vs. Guard battle with a few GK and Custodes sprinkled in. In the ally world Custodes meet the power Null Zone and its all she wrote.

One thing the SCDE vs. GMDK debate did not touch on is the Grand Master can get a 2++ when needed. It costs a psychic power and 2cp and he needs to start on the board, but he becomes over the top when this happens.

See this is where you guys are falling off the rails.

"The" GMNDK.

In reality you'll bring 3. Which means you can have 2 of them with a 3++. Hopefully you go first. But that means one will still be targetable with a 4++.

Finally they're 3 models. You don't even need to kill them to win, not that it's overly difficult. Just get them in melee with some bigger squads. they'll free themselves after a couple turns, sure, but by then you'll have swept everything else off of the board. They can Gate of Infinity one GMNDK per turn. This isn't rocket science. Gk are an incredibly easy army to play around even if by some miracle you can't deal with a GMNDK.

And let's be real here, both armies will bring Imperial Guard to back them, the big difference is that your 3 GMNDK will cost almost 1000 points, whereas the 3 bike captains will be basically half of that. If we're doing an apples to apples comparison you have to factor in the gained points in the tradeoff to be fair.

As Tyranids i can spend 300 points and take all your GMNDK out of the fight for the entire game with my chaff. You might get Gate off, you might not. Shadow in the warp and I deny. Good luck. Meanwhile the bike captains leave combat freely and annihilate everything.

No one who wants to win brings 3 GMNDK. That’s fools gold and not a winning strategy. You bring one. It’s a surgical unit. It deals with problems. It doesn’t win you the game. No one will win if you have 1000pts tied up in one type of model. You need more bodies in 8th to win. You bring one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can play the what if game all day. You bring 300pts of Tyranids and I’ll bring 144pts of Ravenguard Aggressors to delete your 300pts of Tyranids. I’m still up 156pts.

But at the end of the day, it all boils back down to why you'd even want to bother taking one of those when two Custard Captains are better?

 Marmatag wrote:

Thousand Sons are the best army in the game. Look at my math...

Don't bury yourself in all the straw.

See this is where you guys are falling off the rails.

"The" GMNDK.

In reality you'll bring 3. Which means you can have 2 of them with a 3++. Hopefully you go first. But that means one will still be targetable with a 4++.

This is what's off the rails. "Things are going to get wiped off the table turn 1 mentality". Here's some sample lists from the London GT

IS, Plasma Gun x 7
9 Mortars
3 SCDE
Some BA

Strormlord, 2x LC
2 SCDE
LRBT PGC

SCDE x 2
Vertus x 12
Assassins x 4
Celestine

SCDE
Vertus x 16
CP Battery

SCDE x 3
12 CG
Preator x 3

SCDE x 3
SC
Vertus x 9
Some BA

Where's the anti-tank? I sure don't see it. A wide number of lists don't have that kind of fire power.

Finally they're 3 models. You don't even need to kill them to win, not that it's overly difficult.

Stop just taking more of one thing.

As Tyranids i can spend 300 points and take all your GMNDK out of the fight for the entire game with my chaff.

10 SS, SB, Psybolts

40 * .777 * .666 = 21 dead gaunts. Besides - you don't have real chaff. The only good 'nids list is a shooty list now, right?

So, again, let me be clear. I played GK through all of 7th and now in 8th, they LITERALLY have no place to go. What are they designed to do? Hunt Daemons? What player ever brings an all daemon list? They cost more than they should. So I dropped them into the box until 9th comes out or they get a full revamp.

You keep making arguments about how much dakka psilencers put out. This is quite foolish. My 116pt Taurox Prime puts out WAY more dakka, for a 3rd of the price. AND it's got AP. For 99pts (under a 3rd of my GK Squad), my mortar teams put out MORE DAKKA WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT.

Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, let me be clear. I played GK through all of 7th and now in 8th, they LITERALLY have no place to go. What are they designed to do? Hunt Daemons? What player ever brings an all daemon list? They cost more than they should. So I dropped them into the box until 9th comes out or they get a full revamp.

You keep making arguments about how much dakka psilencers put out. This is quite foolish. My 116pt Taurox Prime puts out WAY more dakka, for a 3rd of the price. AND it's got AP. For 99pts (under a 3rd of my GK Squad), my mortar teams put out MORE DAKKA WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT.

Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.

Hang on. You were going Custodes, because they're "Better GK". Why are we roping in IG when GK can take them also?

For the record - that prime sounds like one with a TBC and 2x AC, which is the equivalent of 5.5 AC shots.
A regular DK with H.psycannon and GP is 6 AC shots PLUS 12 S4 D3 (Yes, I know - shorter range!). AND it is 2+. AND it has two more wounds. AND it can fight really well in combat. AND it has a 5++. AND it can teleport. AND it can mini-smite. AND it can deny. BOTH with a +1.

I might not play the army, but that's not the best setup for comparison.

Also, everyone knows mortars are stupid cheap. That doesn't mean GK don't have uses.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, let me be clear. I played GK through all of 7th and now in 8th, they LITERALLY have no place to go. What are they designed to do? Hunt Daemons? What player ever brings an all daemon list? They cost more than they should. So I dropped them into the box until 9th comes out or they get a full revamp.

You keep making arguments about how much dakka psilencers put out. This is quite foolish. My 116pt Taurox Prime puts out WAY more dakka, for a 3rd of the price. AND it's got AP. For 99pts (under a 3rd of my GK Squad), my mortar teams put out MORE DAKKA WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT.

Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.

Essentially this.

To those advocating Gk aren't terrible, can you please post some GK lists you've lost to recently? Would be interesting to see how they're beating you.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone defending GKs is just playing theory hammer, and has never played the actual game. GKs will cause you to lose games. It's that simple. trying up a quarter to half your points in MAYBE two squads of dude who can't affect the fight IF they make it to the fight, is a dumb argument and your a bad person for making it.

Ooooo... anyone who disagrees with Fezzik is a bad person. Double bad for using math.

Deadalus81 is correct, any Imperial player can take IG mortars in an allied unit. Cheap shooting from allies anyone can take might be the worst, most misleading, most desperate comparison possible.

I think the point he's been making throughout this thread is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.

That's worth exploring.

Not sure why some people feel the need to shut down all discussion they don't agree with, but I guess there's some reason we tolerate them.

Here's muy question. GKs are the only army that teleport a Land Raider Crusader anywhere on the table. I would think an LRC bomb is something that could impact a game, am I going to automatically lose if I choose it? For that matter, are there any armies who can do the same?

 techsoldaten wrote:


I think the point he's been making throughout this thread is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.

That's worth exploring.

Stated better than I could.

Here's muy question. GKs are the only army that teleport a Land Raider Crusader anywhere on the table. I would think an LRC bomb is something that could impact a game, am I going to automatically lose if I choose it? For that matter, are there any armies who can do the same?

That would be killer, but only when Land Raiders get assault ramps back. If GK had assault dreadnoughts i'd be deep striking them like crazy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


I think the point he's been making throughout this thread is that GK units (while expensive) are fundamentally sound, but mechanical issues and arbitrary restrictions limit their viability as a full army. GK's limitations are not easily explained by points alone, as similar units in other armies (i.e. Custodes) tend to perform very well.

That's worth exploring.

Stated better than I could.

Here's muy question. GKs are the only army that teleport a Land Raider Crusader anywhere on the table. I would think an LRC bomb is something that could impact a game, am I going to automatically lose if I choose it? For that matter, are there any armies who can do the same?

That would be killer, but only when Land Raiders get assault ramps back. If GK had assault dreadnoughts i'd be deep striking them like crazy.

Assault ramp means disembark after moving the unit?

 techsoldaten wrote:

Assault ramp means disembark after moving the unit?

Yea, well, I presume that's how it would be if they ever brought it back.

Ok, if you bothered to read my original post, I clearly stated I play a AM/GK soup mix. So tell me where I hid that nugget of information from anyone.

Second, the Prime has a gatling cannon with 20 shots of s4/ap0 d1, with a scion racial trait that allows them to gain extra shots on 6s. That prime is also given a storm bolter, which is rf2, with the same profile. It has HS Volley gunsx2, so a total of 6 shots at S5, ap-2, d1. All granted the extra shot trait. So lets count em down! 28 shots of s4 with some AP and all d1. With the extra shots on 6s. Mathematically, that means roughly 10-14 hits, 4-6 wounds on MEQ and lower. for 116 pts. Come at me bro.

Now, as to your logic, again, I will point out, as many others have in this thread, it sounds a LOT like you have no experience with these units/armies. And you make that clearer with every word.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Assault ramp means disembark after moving the unit?

Yea, well, I presume that's how it would be if they ever brought it back.

Yeah. That would be nice.

Despite not being able to disembark, the value is establishing a position for a turn-two deep strike. It gives you a chance to clear out the chaff and ensure your units have a good place to arrive.

Turn two, you are going to have your deep strikers plus whatever units it's carrying on the board. It could also support a couple of Interceptors, which could be really important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, if you bothered to read my original post, I clearly stated I play a AM/GK soup mix. So tell me where I hid that nugget of information from anyone.

Second, the Prime has a gatling cannon with 20 shots of s4/ap0 d1, with a scion racial trait that allows them to gain extra shots on 6s. That prime is also given a storm bolter, which is rf2, with the same profile. It has HS Volley gunsx2, so a total of 6 shots at S5, ap-2, d1. All granted the extra shot trait. So lets count em down! 28 shots of s4 with some AP and all d1. With the extra shots on 6s. Mathematically, that means roughly 10-14 hits, 4-6 wounds on MEQ and lower. for 116 pts. Come at me bro.

Now, as to your logic, again, I will point out, as many others have in this thread, it sounds a LOT like you have no experience with these units/armies. And you make that clearer with every word.

Everyone read your original post, the response was that anyone can take those units.

The comparison is misleading, you are saying cheap shooting from mixed detachments beats a pure GK army. Maybe they do, but that would only be relevant if you were directly comparing lists. Which no one is doing.

The conclusion reached in your previous post - that anyone using GK units is automatically set up to lose - is based on this argument. The follow up - that anyone talking about GK is a bad person - is insulting.

So don't talk to us about logic. You seem to have trouble following your own.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, if you bothered to read my original post, I clearly stated I play a AM/GK soup mix. So tell me where I hid that nugget of information from anyone.

Second, the Prime has a gatling cannon with 20 shots of s4/ap0 d1, with a scion racial trait that allows them to gain extra shots on 6s. That prime is also given a storm bolter, which is rf2, with the same profile. It has HS Volley gunsx2, so a total of 6 shots at S5, ap-2, d1. All granted the extra shot trait. So lets count em down! 28 shots of s4 with some AP and all d1. With the extra shots on 6s. Mathematically, that means roughly 10-14 hits, 4-6 wounds on MEQ and lower. for 116 pts. Come at me bro.

Now, as to your logic, again, I will point out, as many others have in this thread, it sounds a LOT like you have no experience with these units/armies. And you make that clearer with every word.

So now you're taking pure scions? Ok. That's cool. You need to be in half range.

Congratulations! You are now 12" from a DK!

//I won't assume you moved, because clearly you'll make that case regardless
20 * 1.167 = 23.3
23.3 * .666 * .333 * .167 = 0.9 //taurox gat

8 * 1.167 = 9.3
9.3 * .666 * .333 * .5 = 1 //2 hs vgs

4 * 1.167 = 4.7
4.7 * .666 * .333 * .167 = 0.2 // sb

You just took 2 wounds off. I'm sweating bullets here. Oh yea. My turn.

//using onslaught
12 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 2.7 //gatling
6 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 2 = 1.8 //h.psy
.916 * 1 = 0.9 // smite
5 * .666 * .833 * .833 * 2 = 4.6 //melee

That's 10 wounds. Buuuuurn. No, literally. Your Taurox Prime is burning. I blew it up. It'd dead. Because I came at you. Bro.

I lose 1.9 wounds if I had to move, which still leaves you massively crippled.

Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights but want to convince everyone how great they are?

It seems like you two are just looking to be contrarians. Have fun I guess.

To the OP - sounds like you costs this guy a sale and he got a little pissed about it. It's a rather funny story lol.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights but want to convince everyone how great they are?

It seems like you two are just looking to be contrarians. Have fun I guess.

Lanlaorn, I apologize if there's been some confusion. I don't believe I've said anything about how good I am personally at playing GK, it's just some of the conversations on Dakka about Grey Knights are borderline moronic.

The things that get said, and they way they are said, make me uncomfortable. The dialogue just becomes overwhelmingly negative and overlooks simple facts that are easy to observe. It doesn't recognize any nuance and attacks on people for not being sufficiently dire are common. The rest of us look almost as stupid as the people wailing incoherently about the rules when these conversations go on, unchallenged, for 50+ pages in the forum.

Deadalus81 did a good job putting some of that into focus in this thread, and I appreciate you, Lanlaorn, for proving the point.

Here's my GK P&M Blog. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754493.page

It needs to be updated. I completed a Brother Captain, 2 Strike Squads, 2 Intercessor Squads, and 2 more Land Raiders since the last time I posted. But tell me how you think the latest pics look, I'm not a photographer and fiddling with the photo booth does challenge me a little.

I have played a total of 3 games with the new army, 2 wins, 1 loss. Happy to post lists and walk you through what happened in each game, if it helps.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no desire to play a 'pure' Grey Knights army and recognize there are problems with the army in 8th edition. The people who are trying to play 'pure' GK armies are handicapping themselves based on some nostalgia for the way the rules were several editions ago, and I genuinely feel sorry for people who are so behind the times.

But the army, overall, is no where near as bad as some people have suggested, and a lot of that has to do with the level of dialogue. It's hard to think when you are so busy talking trash.

So, again, thank you for proving my point. Good job.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights

I can't speak for him, but correct.

but want to convince everyone how great they are?

Yea, no. I'm investigating why people think they're the worst garbage ever.

It seems like you two are just looking to be contrarians. Have fun I guess.

I thought this was a discussion forum not the complaints department.

Otherwise I presume you don't mind answering some questions?

- Is a TLC/ML ven dread that can give itself astral aim with a +1 to cast NOT a useful unit?
- Are Psybolts and Psychic Onslaught NOT useful abilities?
- If you're going to ally IG with Custodes "to make them work" why wouldn't you ally IG with GK?
- Is it NOT useful to have a deny +1 on every single unit when facing Ahriman proliferation?
- If a Heavy Psycannon is 30 points and is the equivalent of 2 ACs in points, but 3 ACs in shots doesn't that make it a decent weapon?
- Is it considered a bad to be able to bring Paladins that swing with 5 force weapon attacks each? Or 4 with +1 S? That can also give themselves +1 to wound in the fight phase with +1 to cast?
- A common complaint of dreadnoughts is that they're too slow so why aren't people jumping at the chance to deepstrike them?
- Is it not useful for almost ANY unit to get +1 to cast, spend 1 CP for 3D6P2 on spells and then casting vortex with a 1 in 5 chance for a D6 MW bubble? Yes I am aware of the restrictions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights

I can't speak for him, but correct.

Let me be clear about something: I don't like agreeing with Daedalus81. The same way no one enjoys agreeing with Martel or Peregrine, I usually go out of my way not to see his point.

The fact we see eye to eye in this thread means there is a very serious issue with what's being said.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
Just to be clear, techsoldaten and Daedalus81 don't play Grey Knights

I can't speak for him, but correct.

Let me be clear about something: I don't like agreeing with Daedalus81. The same way no one enjoys agreeing with Martel or Peregrine, I usually go out of my way not to see his point.

The fact we see eye to eye in this thread means there is a very serious issue with what's being said.

Woo hoo! I have a reputation!

Taking the contrarian stance with 0 experience doesn't make you the champion you think it does.

To anyone who has played Grey Knights, your suggestions come off as really, really bad. Your 350 point double purifier Rhino strategy absolutely floored me with how bad it is, but you think it's some great gambit that just hasn't been thought of.

I would really love to be so arrogant that I think I could just pick any unit out of any codex, no matter how bad it is, and make it not only playable, but great.

Can you elaborate on perhaps how you could make a Tervigon themed Hyrda list that would take BAO in July? It'd be super counter meta and no one would be expecting it, because the general consensus is that unit & hive fleet are no good. I'll give you 5 minutes to google so you can make an informed opinion, and build a tournament winning list.

I did well in multiple events last year with my Grey Knights deep striking Draigo between two storm ravens and chewing things up, as he's the HQ giving your guys full rerolls. That, a GMNDK, and strike squads + purifier squads. The incinerator is actually the best weapon i have found, because it is strength 6 AP-1. I obviously paired this with a screening battalion lead by Celestine. Interceptors are handy but overcosted. They also work with about 1200 points of imperial guard doing the heavy lifting, but I didn't have the guard models. It's not rocket science how to make these guys playable. Although, the recent FAQ has nail-in-the-coffin'd them.