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Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Enjoy the challenge. There's a lot of room to optimize even top tier armies, you best believe a low tier one is not as defined, find your strongest units and squeeze what you can out of them. The gap between almost all armies is not so large you cannot play the game.

You won't below tier forever, just play this edition with the tools you are given.

I personally prefer an army that is around low tier. Makes victory taste so much sweeter.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm laughing that so many responses are just accepting of the status quo.
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Reemule wrote:
I'm laughing that so many responses are just accepting of the status quo.


Not really accepting the status quo, was more or less, a question of do you wait it out with your army? Or invest in one that's good, but you have no vested interest in.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




You just need to house rule ruins so that the first floor always blocks LOS. Really simple and very practical since ITC plays that way and you dont have to buy more terrain to change things up.

I would say to wait it out and play what you like. Try to figure out what works and make sure you aren’t just playing kill missions.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Backspacehacker wrote:
Pieceocake wrote:
Nah - high tier armies blow low tier armies off the table in a single turn or at worst 2 turns. It's kind of fun for the guy winning but not really. It's totally unfun for the guy getting waxed.


I don't understand why people are still playing games with such little terrain that armies are dying turn 1 or 2. I play Tau and I prefer for there to be 1-2 large LOS blocking pieces (usually ruins) in the middle and then more LOS blocking pieces (ruins/hills) scattered around the map with woods/other cover available too. It makes the game more interesting when both teams have to actually move and figure out how they're going to cover objectives based on the opponents army.

Part of your strategy should be giving gunlines targets that they aren't effective at shooting. Example: Put your terminators where there are only 0 to low AP D1 weapons shooting at them so they laugh with their 2+ save. Or put your devestators squads with a few ablative bolter wounds in range of their Las-preds or equivalent so that they can't even get to the juicy heavy weapons on the team for at least a turn.


That can be atested to the horrible terrain rules this Ed. I actually had a conversation with one of the guys I play, he was saying man our terrain looks great, but it sucks game wise. He was saying if you look at tournaments they have really ugly terrain but it blocks full LoS

You mean the shoebox terrain rules of 8th edition.
I get that GW was trying to speed up the game and get away from the 20 zillion special rules that made learning 7th edition a chore and needing to know all those USR of by heart ment it was only the dedicated that stuck with it and the balance being well cliff like.
But 8th edition is too simple terrain outside of the shoebox LOS blocking tournament style may aswell not exsist for all its gameplay effect.
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Terrain rules are garbage anyone who bought gw terrain over the last few editions has virtually no buildings that block los.

Even third party stuff tends to have windows.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




You mean the shoebox terrain rules of 8th edition.
I get that GW was trying to speed up the game and get away from the 20 zillion special rules that made learning 7th edition a chore and needing to know all those USR of by heart ment it was only the dedicated that stuck with it and the balance being well cliff like.
But 8th edition is too simple terrain outside of the shoebox LOS blocking tournament style may aswell not exsist for all its gameplay effect.


First off, LOS blocking terrain ALWAYS effects gameplay.

Secondly, you don't need to always have boxes. There are plenty of L-shaped or even 3-walled LOS blocking ruins that allow you to benefit from cover (for infantry on it at all, or even vehicles if they're on it and obscured) while shooting out 2 sides.


Edit: You can also board up your windows with extra bits/plasticard if you feel the need to actually play LOS without house ruling the terrain, but I don't see the point if your terrain looks cool as it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 16:29:00


 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Pieceocake wrote:
You mean the shoebox terrain rules of 8th edition.
I get that GW was trying to speed up the game and get away from the 20 zillion special rules that made learning 7th edition a chore and needing to know all those USR of by heart ment it was only the dedicated that stuck with it and the balance being well cliff like.
But 8th edition is too simple terrain outside of the shoebox LOS blocking tournament style may aswell not exsist for all its gameplay effect.


First off, LOS blocking terrain ALWAYS effects gameplay.

Secondly, you don't need to always have boxes. There are plenty of L-shaped or even 3-walled LOS blocking ruins that allow you to benefit from cover (for infantry on it at all, or even vehicles if they're on it and obscured) while shooting out 2 sides.


Problem is even if there is a little pin hole that let's you see the model you can legally shoot everything though that hole.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Exactly if your a necron player gl getting all 20 warriors perfectly in cover.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Backspacehacker wrote:


Problem is even if there is a little pin hole that let's you see the model you can legally shoot everything though that hole.


Play ITC rules and that goes away.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







It depends how hard and how often I'll be canned in the local meta.

Right now it happens a lot.

Necrons
Chaos
IG players

...are the majority where I am. I'm honestly LUCKY when the person I play is something besides those three.

Played a Tyranid player as my last game, it was fun seeing something new. But I just can't compete with competent players who build lists meant to take on other above average codices.

Even my other armies don't really work. Ravenguard, Imperial Knight/Scion House footmen, Deathwatch. I don't actually play a GOOD army and its finally got to me. Sold off a Knight, about half of my Grey Knights (I have a lot still have enough to field a full army), the Ravenguard weren't that big so I'm keeping my custom Shrike and Vanguard Assault. Never selling my Scions. Just putting those playing hours into painting hours for the few bits of grey plastic I have left.

Oh sold my Admech, keeping the Onager Dunecrawlers because I painted them to match my Scions and Imperial Knight so it was kind of a armored company.

A game just isn't worth the time when a nicely painted model you want to show off is useless.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Yeah, you guys are being intentionally stubborn about this rule and then complaining that it removes the fun from the game. You are going to have to help yourself if you want to have fun. lol
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Pieceocake wrote:
Nah - high tier armies blow low tier armies off the table in a single turn or at worst 2 turns. It's kind of fun for the guy winning but not really. It's totally unfun for the guy getting waxed.


I don't understand why people are still playing games with such little terrain that armies are dying turn 1 or 2. I play Tau and I prefer for there to be 1-2 large LOS blocking pieces (usually ruins) in the middle and then more LOS blocking pieces (ruins/hills) scattered around the map with woods/other cover available too. It makes the game more interesting when both teams have to actually move and figure out how they're going to cover objectives based on the opponents army.

Part of your strategy should be giving gunlines targets that they aren't effective at shooting. Example: Put your terminators where there are only 0 to low AP D1 weapons shooting at them so they laugh with their 2+ save. Or put your devestators squads with a few ablative bolter wounds in range of their Las-preds or equivalent so that they can't even get to the juicy heavy weapons on the team for at least a turn.

Look man - a melle army will table/ lock up your entire army in a single turn too. The issue is not firing lanes. In fact we are probably using too much terrain in comparison to what tournaments are using. ITC has made up house rules that turn every first floor of a ruin into a brick wall but if you think that solves anything all you need to do is look at what armies start dominating in that scenerio (it's the exact same stuff that dominates without LOS blocking too) Really fast jetbike melle units with double moves/and or insane durability and weapons that don't need LOS (Basalisks, manticores, hive gaurd, reaper tempest launchers). I mean - you can charge someone without LOS and they can't even overwatch you. It just tilts the balance in the other direction where shooting armies without LOS ignore become useless because they can't even shoot before their whole army gets charge.

Ultimately - the problem is undercosted units doing too much damage for their cost. It's really easy to see how things can snowball. RTS players understand this. If you have 8 zerglings going up against 4 zerglings - you don't trade 4 for 4 zerglings. The side with 8 zerglings is unlikely to lose more than 1 zergling because they get wrap around overrun the 4 units. The same principle applies in 40k. Undercosted units are realistically producing situations like this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 16:44:22


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pieceocake wrote:
You mean the shoebox terrain rules of 8th edition.
I get that GW was trying to speed up the game and get away from the 20 zillion special rules that made learning 7th edition a chore and needing to know all those USR of by heart ment it was only the dedicated that stuck with it and the balance being well cliff like.
But 8th edition is too simple terrain outside of the shoebox LOS blocking tournament style may aswell not exsist for all its gameplay effect.


First off, LOS blocking terrain ALWAYS effects gameplay.

Secondly, you don't need to always have boxes. There are plenty of L-shaped or even 3-walled LOS blocking ruins that allow you to benefit from cover (for infantry on it at all, or even vehicles if they're on it and obscured) while shooting out 2 sides.


Edit: You can also board up your windows with extra bits/plasticard if you feel the need to actually play LOS without house ruling the terrain, but I don't see the point if your terrain looks cool as it is.


Locally we have house ruled terrain even further than ITC to make it more part of the game and a lot less ignorable. Being on/in ground floor of ruins is essentially RAW impossible with GW or mantic terrain as neither have bases. No one but infantry can be on upper floors, and even a solid wall can't stop you being shot at if you have even an arial or banner showing RAW the entire squad can die.
But this is playing way outside the 40k as GW intended.

8th can be made a lot better, but at a certain point your not really playing 8th edition anymore its more of a 7.9 or 8.2 depending on your point of view.

When we play tournament or practice games the amount terrain impacts the game really noticeably drops

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 16:42:50


 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






Space wolves were my first army. I love the lore, the looks, the style, everything. I just love my Space Wolves.

They are rumored to be the last imperial index, and currently the "competitive" way to run them is spamming storm bolters on EVERYTHING. Which doesn't really appeal to me. I've ran them a few times in 8th, and all the cool stuff I really love to use fell flat, all my plans failed, and nothing went the way I expected it to.

Thinking back to how much my daemon army improved with a codex, as well as how fun the stratagems are for death guard, I've just been leaving my wolves on the shelf. Patiently awaiting their codex. I paint a few every now and then, but I'm OK with waiting for them to get a codex.

   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 gwarsh41 wrote:
Space wolves were my first army. I love the lore, the looks, the style, everything. I just love my Space Wolves.

They are rumored to be the last imperial index, and currently the "competitive" way to run them is spamming storm bolters on EVERYTHING. Which doesn't really appeal to me. I've ran them a few times in 8th, and all the cool stuff I really love to use fell flat, all my plans failed, and nothing went the way I expected it to.

Thinking back to how much my daemon army improved with a codex, as well as how fun the stratagems are for death guard, I've just been leaving my wolves on the shelf. Patiently awaiting their codex. I paint a few every now and then, but I'm OK with waiting for them to get a codex.

Off topic, but Can you give me a rough competitive SW list ATM?

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Look man - a melle army will table/ lock up your entire army in a single turn too. The issue is not firing lanes. In fact we are probably using too much terrain in comparison to what tournaments are using. ITC has made up house rules that turn every first floor of a ruin into a brick wall but if you think that solves anything all you need to do is look at what armies start dominating in that scenerio (it's the exact same stuff that dominates without LOS blocking too) Really fast jetbike melle units with double moves/and or insane durability and weapons that don't need LOS (Basalisks, manticores, hive gaurd, reaper tempest launchers). I mean - you can charge someone without LOS and they can't even overwatch you. It just tilts the balance in the other direction where shooting armies without LOS ignore become useless because they can't even shoot before their whole army gets charge.

Ultimately - the problem is undercosted units doing too much damage for their cost. It's really easy to see how things can snowball. RTS players understand this. If you have 8 zerglings going up against 4 zerglings - you don't trade 4 for 4 zerglings. The side with 8 zerglings is unlikely to lose more than 1 zergling because they get wrap around overrun the 4 units. The same principle applies in 40k. Undercosted units are realistically producing situations like this.


If you need, I can help you out with strategy. If they have a bunch of jetbikes, put small forward screening units far enough outside walls so that if they charge your screen, they can be shot next turn. If they ignore the screen and go for the second ranks, you get to fire overwatch at least. Make sure the tanks or artillery are more than 12" from anywhere the bikes could land first turn. The first part applies to any melee. Make sure you are okay with the closest unit dying and then shoot them after the squad is gone, or can fall back.

Units that don't need LOS suffer from 4+ BS and Chapter tactics like Ravenguard will likely always affect them too (except reaper tempest launchers, but you can only take 3 now). Its really easy to get cover since they are very likely to not have 50% of the unit they are shooting at. (not as helpful against basilisks, but could still save damage. And obviously you'll want to get in close against those basilisks and try to tie them up or shoot them with melta. There are many ways to get to them. Play with fliers and hover next to them the whole game, clear screen and deepstrike, deepstrike shooty units and shoot over their screen, etc etc.

   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 SHUPPET wrote:
 gwarsh41 wrote:
Space wolves were my first army. I love the lore, the looks, the style, everything. I just love my Space Wolves.

They are rumored to be the last imperial index, and currently the "competitive" way to run them is spamming storm bolters on EVERYTHING. Which doesn't really appeal to me. I've ran them a few times in 8th, and all the cool stuff I really love to use fell flat, all my plans failed, and nothing went the way I expected it to.

Thinking back to how much my daemon army improved with a codex, as well as how fun the stratagems are for death guard, I've just been leaving my wolves on the shelf. Patiently awaiting their codex. I paint a few every now and then, but I'm OK with waiting for them to get a codex.

Off topic, but Can you give me a rough competitive SW list ATM?


Sure, at a high level:

Thunderwolf Cavalry /w storm shields
Wolf lords on thunder wolf
Hellblasters (using outflank)

Supported by Custodes bike captains & imperial guard. <--- every single space marine list needs this. These two things on their own are super competitive so you can add whatever you want and at least be decent.

Essentially you have a ton of 3++ characters and 3++ cavalry which move quickly and are devastating in melee.. as well as mobile dice to clear chaff, since your cavalry can take chainswords, + the wolf attacks, as well as the custode bike captains. You also pack a punch to clear bigger things.

And you have standard guard cheese so you'll never be table even if you roll awful, and can artillery slap anything dangerous.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Ice_can wrote:
Pieceocake wrote:
You mean the shoebox terrain rules of 8th edition.
I get that GW was trying to speed up the game and get away from the 20 zillion special rules that made learning 7th edition a chore and needing to know all those USR of by heart ment it was only the dedicated that stuck with it and the balance being well cliff like.
But 8th edition is too simple terrain outside of the shoebox LOS blocking tournament style may aswell not exsist for all its gameplay effect.


First off, LOS blocking terrain ALWAYS effects gameplay.

Secondly, you don't need to always have boxes. There are plenty of L-shaped or even 3-walled LOS blocking ruins that allow you to benefit from cover (for infantry on it at all, or even vehicles if they're on it and obscured) while shooting out 2 sides.


Edit: You can also board up your windows with extra bits/plasticard if you feel the need to actually play LOS without house ruling the terrain, but I don't see the point if your terrain looks cool as it is.


Locally we have house ruled terrain even further than ITC to make it more part of the game and a lot less ignorable. Being on/in ground floor of ruins is essentially RAW impossible with GW or mantic terrain as neither have bases. No one but infantry can be on upper floors, and even a solid wall can't stop you being shot at if you have even an arial or banner showing RAW the entire squad can die.
But this is playing way outside the 40k as GW intended.

8th can be made a lot better, but at a certain point your not really playing 8th edition anymore its more of a 7.9 or 8.2 depending on your point of view.

When we play tournament or practice games the amount terrain impacts the game really noticeably drops

It's not ignorable - terrain gives you +1 armor. In game terms that is like having a 1 point stratagem on every unit for free if you utilize the terrain. You want terrain to do more than this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pieceocake wrote:
Look man - a melle army will table/ lock up your entire army in a single turn too. The issue is not firing lanes. In fact we are probably using too much terrain in comparison to what tournaments are using. ITC has made up house rules that turn every first floor of a ruin into a brick wall but if you think that solves anything all you need to do is look at what armies start dominating in that scenerio (it's the exact same stuff that dominates without LOS blocking too) Really fast jetbike melle units with double moves/and or insane durability and weapons that don't need LOS (Basalisks, manticores, hive gaurd, reaper tempest launchers). I mean - you can charge someone without LOS and they can't even overwatch you. It just tilts the balance in the other direction where shooting armies without LOS ignore become useless because they can't even shoot before their whole army gets charge.

Ultimately - the problem is undercosted units doing too much damage for their cost. It's really easy to see how things can snowball. RTS players understand this. If you have 8 zerglings going up against 4 zerglings - you don't trade 4 for 4 zerglings. The side with 8 zerglings is unlikely to lose more than 1 zergling because they get wrap around overrun the 4 units. The same principle applies in 40k. Undercosted units are realistically producing situations like this.


If you need, I can help you out with strategy. If they have a bunch of jetbikes, put small forward screening units far enough outside walls so that if they charge your screen, they can be shot next turn. If they ignore the screen and go for the second ranks, you get to fire overwatch at least. Make sure the tanks or artillery are more than 12" from anywhere the bikes could land first turn. The first part applies to any melee. Make sure you are okay with the closest unit dying and then shoot them after the squad is gone, or can fall back.

Units that don't need LOS suffer from 4+ BS and Chapter tactics like Ravenguard will likely always affect them too (except reaper tempest launchers, but you can only take 3 now). Its really easy to get cover since they are very likely to not have 50% of the unit they are shooting at. (not as helpful against basilisks, but could still save damage. And obviously you'll want to get in close against those basilisks and try to tie them up or shoot them with melta. There are many ways to get to them. Play with fliers and hover next to them the whole game, clear screen and deepstrike, deepstrike shooty units and shoot over their screen, etc etc.

I'm not talking about a specific problem I am having - I am talking about general issues with the game as a whole. The units that are strong - are so much stronger than the units that aren't strong for the cost - tactics really don't have a lot to do with anything at that point. Every army has a competitive option that is true but for most armies it is to soup in a stronger arm - then you have to ask yourself why you are even including your weaker army contingent at all. Serious question have you ever seen what quickened shinning spears can do? There is nothing you can do to prevent them from charging your best stuff - other than cancel the spell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 17:14:47


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





It isn’t true that you can do nothing to stop quickened spears from charging your best stuff. How to do it depends on your army and the terrain though.

1.) you already mentioned denying the spell
2.) with the new FAQ you can fill up a ruin level and make them unable to charge if your good stuff can go up on levels.
3.) you can in a sizable enough screen to deny them space to move over said screen forcing them to charge the screen.
4.)now that they cannot deepstrike and quicken you can hit them first, they cannot assault after fall back so you can tie them up, or shoot them to death.
5.) DE can cancel the advance and charge strat, which reduces their move, or denies them the charge

They are super good, but not unbeatable
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






hobojebus wrote:
Terrain rules are garbage anyone who bought gw terrain over the last few editions has virtually no buildings that block los.

Even third party stuff tends to have windows.


Anyone building GW ruins who didn't build them with at least one ground floor wall solid wasn't thinking it through. Even in previous editions there was a big difference between LoS blocking and cover.
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





In competetive context, playing an underdog army is where you actually learn to play instead of just copypaste strong and forgiving list and roll dice. Of course you'll get beating after beating with only occasional sparks of draws or close wins, but when the time comes you either change faction or get new, top tier codex, then you should be already a better player overall.

Or you can use this opportunity to take on an entirely different path and explore 40K where it trully shines - beyond matched play and tournament prep games, where there are no meaningfull 'tiers' or tears of frustration at GW indolence, just loads of great and intelectually involving fun with one-off custom asymmetric scenarios instead of reprtetive EW, interesting and unique terrain setups/dioramas instead of 'fair' bowling ball planets and where every model/unit can be made not only viable to play but even crucial to victory and you can ballance every game to match skill levels, playstyles, collections and codices for mutual enjoyment.

One of the saddest things that happened to 40k between 2nd and 8th editions was this huge shift towards "only competetive meta is 'true 40k'" with everything else possible with this game being frown upon or marginalised, as was with 2/3rds of 8th BRB or CA contents...
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Finland

When you drop the need and obsession of winning, you can actually have fun even when losing.

If your faction is what you like - if your armylist includes models and weapons you like - I dont see why the game result would destroy your backbone to this extent.

I don't know - guess I simply just enjoy the playing part enough that I bare no attention to this "which tier my army is and why it ruins my experience" -thought process.

I play/collect Space Wolves if it matters.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







People want competitive 40k because they want balance. People want to be able to show up see a random guy play a game without knowing anything about each other and have fun. Which is most likely to happen if it is balanced.


 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

nou wrote:
One of the saddest things that happened to 40k between 2nd and 8th editions was this huge shift towards "only competetive meta is 'true 40k'" with everything else possible with this game being frown upon or marginalised, as was with 2/3rds of 8th BRB or CA contents...


Let's not overstate the problem. "Only competitive meta is 'true 40k' when it's discussed online with everything else..." would be a more accurate statement.

The Internet had a big impact in the growth of competitive 40k, and sometimes we mistake online discussion for the reality most players inhabit. Very different things.

For me, 40k is only fun to play when others are enjoying it, otherwise I retreat back to painting and modelling. There needs to be some payoff besides rolling dice. 7th edition went terribly for Chaos Space Marines so I mostly skipped it.

Once you've played 40k for a few editions, you know what it's like to have the rules working against you. A few people mentioned they would never want to ask for a handicap, I offer them when I know someone is playing a weak Codex. My army lists are tiered so that I'm not just steamrolling other players and can experiment with units I don't usually take.

There is nothing wrong with tailoring the rules to make the game competitive for both sides.


   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





The discussed online is the important part, most people are looking at pickup or tournament play online and asking advice on winning. You don’t see a lot of people asking for list advice for their narrative campaign.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Breng77 wrote:
The discussed online is the important part, most people are looking at pickup or tournament play online and asking advice on winning. You don’t see a lot of people asking for list advice for their narrative campaign.


To be fair, when they do they get ridiculed and yelled at for not being competitive enough.

I used to ask for list advice all the time on this website, but instead of getting helpful advice I just got yelled at for not being competitive enough.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So what do you do when you army is low tier and just not playavle/cometative at all?
I have run into a problem where the armies I have and actually care about are such hot garbage that they have gotten to the point where it's just not even worth Fielding or playing the game. Do you all just wait it out? Do you give in and just buy one of those competative armies/gimick that actually winds games even if you don't care about the armies?

I'm struggling to have any interest in the game anymore since it seems the only way I'll win is if I invest in armies don't care at all about.


It actually depends on your meta. If you are into 40k because you love the hobby and just want an occasionally clash with your friends' miniatures then the game is amazing. If you want to compete and to prove you're good at it the game is horrible, as always. Tailor a game with your opponent if you don't want to invest tons of money into miniatures that you wouldn't buy just for being competitive. IMHO that's exactly how 40k should be played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 gwarsh41 wrote:
Space wolves were my first army. I love the lore, the looks, the style, everything. I just love my Space Wolves.

They are rumored to be the last imperial index, and currently the "competitive" way to run them is spamming storm bolters on EVERYTHING. Which doesn't really appeal to me. I've ran them a few times in 8th, and all the cool stuff I really love to use fell flat, all my plans failed, and nothing went the way I expected it to.

Thinking back to how much my daemon army improved with a codex, as well as how fun the stratagems are for death guard, I've just been leaving my wolves on the shelf. Patiently awaiting their codex. I paint a few every now and then, but I'm OK with waiting for them to get a codex.

Off topic, but Can you give me a rough competitive SW list ATM?


Sure, at a high level:

Thunderwolf Cavalry /w storm shields
Wolf lords on thunder wolf
Hellblasters (using outflank)

Supported by Custodes bike captains & imperial guard. <--- every single space marine list needs this. These two things on their own are super competitive so you can add whatever you want and at least be decent.

Essentially you have a ton of 3++ characters and 3++ cavalry which move quickly and are devastating in melee.. as well as mobile dice to clear chaff, since your cavalry can take chainswords, + the wolf attacks, as well as the custode bike captains. You also pack a punch to clear bigger things.

And you have standard guard cheese so you'll never be table even if you roll awful, and can artillery slap anything dangerous.


Do you even call that a SW list???

That's basically one HQ and one unit of SW, maybe two if you count the hellblasters. No wonder people want to quit the hobby if they're forced to play something like that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/07 19:35:36


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
The discussed online is the important part, most people are looking at pickup or tournament play online and asking advice on winning. You don’t see a lot of people asking for list advice for their narrative campaign.


To be fair, when they do they get ridiculed and yelled at for not being competitive enough.

I used to ask for list advice all the time on this website, but instead of getting helpful advice I just got yelled at for not being competitive enough.


To be fair in a lot of cases people post lists without context, and then get hammered. That may not always be true, but people don’t usually post “I’m playing a battle trying to recreate/create X cool scenario, do you think this list will work for that?” That said I never spent much time in the list section here there was never much to be gained, the signal to noise ratio was far too low. Your general player is terrible at list critique for any kind of play.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Breng77 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
The discussed online is the important part, most people are looking at pickup or tournament play online and asking advice on winning. You don’t see a lot of people asking for list advice for their narrative campaign.


To be fair, when they do they get ridiculed and yelled at for not being competitive enough.

I used to ask for list advice all the time on this website, but instead of getting helpful advice I just got yelled at for not being competitive enough.


To be fair in a lot of cases people post lists without context, and then get hammered. That may not always be true, but people don’t usually post “I’m playing a battle trying to recreate/create X cool scenario, do you think this list will work for that?” That said I never spent much time in the list section here there was never much to be gained, the signal to noise ratio was far too low. Your general player is terrible at list critique for any kind of play.


That's because people can use narrative lists in every context. I'm bringing a 3-superheavy list to NOVA because my army is a superheavy tank regiment. I won't ask for help building the NOVA list, though, because apparently "making the best within these constraints" is essentially just heresy; if you're not trying your absolute hardest to win then you shouldn't even try at all.

On at least 2 separate occasions I've posited a "generic" list while asking for ideas of how to use certain units or make up the last 500 points or anything, and on the two that I can think of I've gotten yelled at for not being competitive enough. It's true, even my generic "take-anywhere-even-to-tournament" lists are generally rooted in my narrative, but surely people could talk about how to play and improve with subpar choices rather than just dismissing the whole list as awful and ridiculing the idea of even trying.
   
 
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