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I'm kicking around starting a new army. I keep coming back to some flavor of Space Marines, but I just can't pull the trigger.

IMO the advent of Primaris Marines shows GWs intent to phase out the classic Space Marines models. So any money I spend on classic Space Marines will be wasted on models that are domed to be discontinued by GW.

I'd love to be proven wrong by someone as I think I'd really enjoy a Space Wolves army.

Thoughts?

I thought I read somewhere on this forum (so, take it as you will) that all Space Marines will soon be able to "count as" Primaris Marines per GW. I could be completely wrong on that one, so don't take my word for it.

SG

Proof is that despite all the shilling for primaris marines only 1 of the units are good, and 2 are super situational. They have no transportation at all.

Remember if they shelf originalarines that also means getting rid of the rhino, drop pod, land raider, pretty much the entire sm line. Also basic marines are still very flexible over costed, but flexible. Dev squads are still really useful to have.

If you like Wolves hang on a bit. Shouldn't be too long before they get their Codex and you can see what primaris upgrade stuff they get.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They have no transportation at all.

Pretty sure the Repulsor is built to specifically transport Primaris Marines. Plus, it's pretty cool for the Imperium to have its first Grav Tank.

SG

And even if that official ruling doesn't come only an ###hole would not allow you to do so anyway.

My concern would be if you could stand the different designs in the same army representing the same unit once you cannot buy oldmarines anymore.

Alternatively buy primaris and have them count as regular marines until the day comes.

Tl,dr: Go for your wolves ideally once the codex is out.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They have no transportation at all.

Pretty sure the Repulsor is built to specifically transport Primaris Marines. Plus, it's pretty cool for the Imperium to have its first Grav Tank.

SG

I should have rephrased, they have no good transport. The repulser is hot garbage which is why you never see it on the field because it transports medicore units and nothing else.


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Also if you are going wolves, wulfen man, wulfen

Space Wolves will get primaris in their codex and they have access via the Index.

That being said, devastators are some of the best SM units and are classic 1 wound. Depending on your playstyle, assault or reivers are the better option. The classic marines still have thier place in 8th edition.

I vastly prefer primaris, but there are a lot of successful oldmarine lists out there.

Don't worry about it. I still use 1st edition Marines and Terminators without issue (just changed the size of the base). You'll still be able to use regular Marine models even if they're phased out.

I feel much the same with my Crimson Fists. I am building the Primaris side for now to see if original marines start to get pushed out.

I don’t understand why people have such a bee in their bonnet about this. If you like the figures, buy the figures. They won’t disappear, even if the range does get discontinued somewhere down the line. If you don’t like the figures, or are concerned about having the latest, most up-to-date thing, then probably skip the classic marines. Although if the latter’s your priority, I’d suggest you’re in for a long, frustrating ride.

 ServiceGames wrote:
I thought I read somewhere on this forum (so, take it as you will) that all Space Marines will soon be able to "count as" Primaris Marines per GW. I could be completely wrong on that one, so don't take my word for it.

SG

I said something along those lines. Basically if original Marines become discontinued (which is very,. very Unlikely) than those Marines can absolutely be used as Primaris Marines.
It is the same as using older metal models, such as a Daemon Bloodthirster or Necron Wraiths, which are much, much smaller than their current plastic counterparts

-

 Nazrak wrote:
I don’t understand why people have such a bee in their bonnet about this. If you like the figures, buy the figures. They won’t disappear, even if the range does get discontinued somewhere down the line. If you don’t like the figures, or are concerned about having the latest, most up-to-date thing, then probably skip the classic marines. Although if the latter’s your priority, I’d suggest you’re in for a long, frustrating ride.

#

Yeah.
I really think this is a time thing.
I can maybe see them not releasing any more regular marines. Given that "Space Marine Tactical Squad" has been GW's highest earner by a distance for this millennium it would be a brave move.
This isn't Squats - a faction made into myth, but played by about 6 people. Its Space Marines. I can't see regular Marines not having rules for many years to come.

So its a question of whether you see these models as a long term investment. If you are thinking "I hope to use these until 2030, and if GW invalidates my marines I am going to table-flip and burn everything"? Well don't take the risk.

If however you are buying the models now - to build, paint and play with now - then I wouldn't worry about it. If you followed that line to its logical conclusion you wouldn't be able to justify buying anything.

I've been predicting for a while that eventually they'll be rid of classic marines and all their toys. Things like Techmarines, old dreadnoughts, rhinos (and all of the rhino chassis vehicles), scouts, bikers, and plenty of other kits that are showing their age will eventually disappear, replaced by Primaris versions.

Simply put, GW can't keep all their kits going forever. Eventually, even something as ubiquitous as the Rhino will have to be taken away. Look at things like the Scout kit and compare it any kit made in the past 3 years. The shift in space economy and detail is absolutely stunning.

They're also slowly powercreeping the rules to support Primaris dominance. Lots of people don't see the point in paying the points for 1 wound models with a 3+ save. I remember past editions when people complained that Terminators were TOO WEAK with a 2+/5++ and 1 wound. Now, it's the regular Space Marines. With so much high ap weaponry available to nearly every faction, and cover rules changing dramatically, 3+ just isn't the armor that it used to be.

I think this is a conscious push to get people to invest more into Primaris. The Deathwatch Codex is a big push for that as well.

It won't be this edition, but sometime in the future, we're going to see some Space Marine things disappear. There may be a new 'Space Marine Index' in the future that will allow people to keep using those old kits, even in competitive play for a while, but there will come a day when those kits will have to be shelved for good. That's just the way of the game.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't get something if you enjoy it, though. Lots of people still have old kits that they love, that are prizes of their collections because of how old they are or the sentimental value they hold.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They have no transportation at all.

Pretty sure the Repulsor is built to specifically transport Primaris Marines. Plus, it's pretty cool for the Imperium to have its first Grav Tank.

SG

First imperial grav tank please tell me your having a laugh.
Forgeworld and custodes would like a word with you heretic.

I predict deathwatch will be the longest user of standard marine stuff, at least until primaris kill-teams reach parity on wargear selection from a similar kit to the kill-team box

 Backspacehacker wrote:

I should have rephrased, they have no good transport. The repulser is hot garbage which is why you never see it on the field because it transports medicore units and nothing else.

People treat the Repulsor like a main battle tank. It isn't. It's literally the Primaris Rhino, but up-gunned to a ridiculous level.

It's great at being an assault transport, because:
1) chargers get -2 making it really hard to get to
2) it can fly making over chaff simpler
3) it's T8
4) no move and shoot penalty
5) you can stick 4 flamestorm aggressors plus an ancient in it

It isn't good because:
1) it's expensive
2) the units you can bring are very limited in variety and weapons

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

I should have rephrased, they have no good transport. The repulser is hot garbage which is why you never see it on the field because it transports medicore units and nothing else.

People treat the Repulsor like a main battle tank. It isn't. It's literally the Primaris Rhino, but up-gunned to a ridiculous level.

It's great at being an assault transport, because:
1) chargers get -2 making it really hard to get to
2) it can fly making over chaff simpler
3) it's T8
4) no move and shoot penalty
5) you can stick 4 flamestorm aggressors plus an ancient in it

It isn't good because:
1) it's expensive
2) the units you can bring are very limited in variety and weapons

People treat it like a model that is approx 100 points over costed...because it is.


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 ServiceGames wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They have no transportation at all.

Pretty sure the Repulsor is built to specifically transport Primaris Marines. Plus, it's pretty cool for the Imperium to have its first Grav Tank.

SG

It's cool - love the model - use 2 of them often.

You kinda don't qualify as a transport anymore when you cost twice what the unit inside costs though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

People treat it like a model that is approx 100 points over costed...because it is.

...so you think something that is T8 W16 with PotMS and charge deterrence base should only be 40 points more than a rhino base?

I started a SW army 6 months ago, but got it cheap off of ebay. I also think primaris is going the be the future space marine, and they’ll rewrite the rules to allow land raiders and such to transport primaris, while they replace rhinos, predators, land speeders etc etc.

They will probably replace these models with stuff that the old models cant really proxy, to make people buy their new line.

You could build a wulfen heavy army, as these models are huge and fits the primaris scale... so they will probably be used for a long time.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

People treat it like a model that is approx 100 points over costed...because it is.

...so you think something that is T8 W16 with PotMS and charge deterrence base should only be 40 points more than a rhino base?

When you put it that way, it sounds wrong, but it performs like a 250 pt model, not 350. Paying over 20 pts per wound with no invuln or fnp is outrageous.

 Nazrak wrote:
I don’t understand why people have such a bee in their bonnet about this. If you like the figures, buy the figures. They won’t disappear, even if the range does get discontinued somewhere down the line. If you don’t like the figures, or are concerned about having the latest, most up-to-date thing, then probably skip the classic marines. Although if the latter’s your priority, I’d suggest you’re in for a long, frustrating ride.

i'm actually waiting for plastic Sisters. I've been saying since 3rd Ed. that if they came out with plastic Sisters then I would drop a grand and buy a full Force Org the very first day. Now that that day seems to be coming, I'm concerned with having an army that might not be a viable "all comers" army for leagues & tournaments.

I like the look & play style of classic Space Wolves, but I'm afraid of putting money into the classic models, and an all Primaris army currently seems sub par.


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" if original Marines become discontinued (which is very,. very Unlikely) than those Marines can absolutely be used as Primaris Marines."

How can my standard Bolter git or my standard BP&CCW git "count as" Primaris when Primaris models are equipped with drastically different weapons & gear? It wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

I hope if they ever do do away with standard Marines, they add Tac/ASM/Dev squads to Primaris.

I think the Primaris loadouts are gakky, and don't feel like Marines at all.

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

People treat it like a model that is approx 100 points over costed...because it is.

...so you think something that is T8 W16 with PotMS and charge deterrence base should only be 40 points more than a rhino base?

When you put it that way, it sounds wrong, but it performs like a 250 pt model, not 350. Paying over 20 pts per wound with no invuln or fnp is outrageous.

Yes, i'll agree the cost is really hard to swallow. It sucks to lose Magnus and he's a good bit more durable for only 25% more.

It's a really difficult position for the Repulsor, because making it too cheap makes it the craziest gun boat in the game. I would almost prefer to give it FNP instead of changing the cost too much.

phydaux wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I don’t understand why people have such a bee in their bonnet about this. If you like the figures, buy the figures. They won’t disappear, even if the range does get discontinued somewhere down the line. If you don’t like the figures, or are concerned about having the latest, most up-to-date thing, then probably skip the classic marines. Although if the latter’s your priority, I’d suggest you’re in for a long, frustrating ride.

i'm actually waiting for plastic Sisters. I've been saying since 3rd Ed. that if they came out with plastic Sisters then I would drop a grand and buy a full Force Org the very first day. Now that that day seems to be coming, I'm concerned with having an army that might not be a viable "all comers" army for leagues & tournaments.

I like the look & play style of classic Space Wolves, but I'm afraid of putting money into the classic models, and an all Primaris army currently seems sub par.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" if original Marines become discontinued (which is very,. very Unlikely) than those Marines can absolutely be used as Primaris Marines."

How can my standard Bolter git or my standard BP&CCW git "count as" Primaris when Primaris models are equipped with drastically different weapons & gear? It wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

Quite simply
bolter git = Intercessor (taller git with bigger bolter)
BP&CCW git = reaver (goth taller git with knife)

It's plenty close enough for WYSIWYG, people like WYSIWYG as it makes the game easier but if dude with bolter can only be an intercessor reasonable player will NOT get upset about a MK3-MK8 power armour & bolter squad being intercessors. Most people can't tell the primaris weapons appart, know I can't. I can tell an intercessor form a helblaster but an assualt helblaster from a heavy nope.

I was talking with the manager of my FLGS the other day. New players buy Primaris, experienced players buy Marines.

Part of it is the models / rules, but part of it is the price. For Aggressors, who wants to pay $20 USD per model?

If GW was selling Primaris for a reasonable price per model, maybe, but the sunk costs going into what I already have make that prohibitive.

Don't know if anyone remembers GW's financial reports after the release of 7th, but that was not a good time for the company. This isn't Fantasy, I think they want to avoid shoving anything down player's throats.

It follows the tradition t8 marine models have to be poorly costed.

phydaux wrote:
I'm kicking around starting a new army. I keep coming back to some flavor of Space Marines, but I just can't pull the trigger.

IMO the advent of Primaris Marines shows GWs intent to phase out the classic Space Marines models. So any money I spend on classic Space Marines will be wasted on models that are domed to be discontinued by GW.

I'd love to be proven wrong by someone as I think I'd really enjoy a Space Wolves army.

Thoughts?

I would make the decision based on if you like the models, not so much the rules. If you prefer basic marines, but worry about the future then you might as well buy them now. I do not think regular marines will be discontinued though, in fact if they base their products on sales then who knows? maybe it's the primaris that gets discontinued first.

Buy whatever you prefer. Or if choosing space marines requires you to be convinced by others, then maybe look into other armies or games?

Numarines suck and according to the latest fluff the sw don't trust them and keep them at arms length.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

People treat it like a model that is approx 100 points over costed...because it is.

...so you think something that is T8 W16 with PotMS and charge deterrence base should only be 40 points more than a rhino base?

When you put it that way, it sounds wrong, but it performs like a 250 pt model, not 350. Paying over 20 pts per wound with no invuln or fnp is outrageous.

Yes, i'll agree the cost is really hard to swallow. It sucks to lose Magnus and he's a good bit more durable for only 25% more.

It's a really difficult position for the Repulsor, because making it too cheap makes it the craziest gun boat in the game. I would almost prefer to give it FNP instead of changing the cost too much.

Well - vs lascannons (a very common weapon) it is only about 40% more survivable. So costing about 40% more seems reasonable to me. Rhinos are also overcosted - a rhino is only worth about 50 points. Plus putting all your eggs in 1 basket should give you a reasonable discount. It has 16 wounds but it really only get to use about half of them at full effiecentcy. you can almost get 3 twin las razors for it's cost which can take 3 HKM and 3 storm bolters. You'd have more firepower more survivability and you could also sit on 3 back feild objectives. Who cares if bolters wound it on 6's - aint no one shooting a bolter at the dang thing. It does have a lot of guns and when I run 2 of them and I go first - I can do a lot of damage if they are both buffed by guilliman - I'll probably win the game in that case as I will attempt to remove as many las cannons as I can but if they go first - I'll probably lose both repulsors and I wont even get saves. It ether needs a 4++ save and about a 50 point drop of just needs a flat 100 point drop. Compare it to a stormsurge with PBC/velocity tracker/and sheild gen (that is a gunboat dude). Which only costs about 50 points more than a repulsor. The repulsor has no chance against it - no - it's not a transport but transport ability is vastly overpriced in a game where you can deepstrike units for 1 command point so you cant realistically charge it for it's transport capacity -not what it is currently paying anyways. Heck - it loses in a gunfight agasint 3 wave serpents with shuiriken cannons (also of comparable price with 3 times the board presense 3x the transport capacity - more speed - and army traits). It needs a point reduction badly.



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A deathwatch intercessor is paying +1 point for special ammo. Is this a joke? How do they come up with these points? Thing is - this makes intersessors just about playable - special ammo is at least a 3-4 point upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

People treat it like a model that is approx 100 points over costed...because it is.

...so you think something that is T8 W16 with PotMS and charge deterrence base should only be 40 points more than a rhino base?

When you put it that way, it sounds wrong, but it performs like a 250 pt model, not 350. Paying over 20 pts per wound with no invuln or fnp is outrageous.

Yes, i'll agree the cost is really hard to swallow. It sucks to lose Magnus and he's a good bit more durable for only 25% more.

It's a really difficult position for the Repulsor, because making it too cheap makes it the craziest gun boat in the game. I would almost prefer to give it FNP instead of changing the cost too much.

4++ save is needed - any modle over 250 points that doesn't have an invo save is criminally stupid. There are some forge world land raiders that have them + some other bonus rules like being able to shoot while in CC. Those land raiders don't suck.