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What 60 point screen is keeping them off three turns? Honest question because if that is a thing I'll conceed the point. Also, I'll give you that base Retributors aren't great at tournaments by themselves but Hammerstrike Force is very much a thing (even after the tiny nerf).

What they certainly aren't is "hot garbage" which is how you referred to them in general, not even exclusively at tournaments. Something you did an about-face on just now.

My last game against stormcast with me using nurgle, the retributor squad chewed through my plague bearer screen in one turn and then took off 10 of my great unclean one's wounds before they finally went down.

They more than made up for their point cost.

Game before that they were responsible for wiping out my blight king unit and my plague bearer unit.

They are averaging about 15 wounds a turn, and barring really lucky rolls on my things that have a 5+ vs anything save, once they get into contact with me I'm done.

My screens are plague bearers. I have two units of 10. I can usually always screen them but that screen doesn't last longer than a turn.

The SCE armies also have other things that do a lot of damage too, so my target priority is saturated. They aren't running around by themselves, and they are going full bore into my force from the beginning so they are getting into combat by turn 2 and I have little at range that can really do anything to them.

Definitely not "hot garbage".

So, turn 1 sees them deepstrike or lightning chariot 9" away right? On the 82% chance they don't make that charge then they either move close and bock the line of advance without charging or get charged if you double turn. Either way you spend turn 2 in cc with the marauder/skink screen. Turn 3 is because in all likely hood you're out of charge range of what you cam to kill after that.

I'm not saying a single unit holds them 2-3 turns in cc. I'm saying it takes a 5 man out of the game for 3 of your player turns. But minimum 2. Now math says that's a win in a 5 turn game. It's a simplified example but the essential idea. But when all is said and done you get good screens easily in the top armies. Marauders, skaven plague priests, skinks, brimstones, and for 80pts per 10 even skellies.

A 10 man has a different dynamic but also suffers from costing over 20% of your costs.

In other words there are better ways to spend points. Which is why we see so dracoth mounted units in SCE instead of a slower unit. Which in turn makes them a bad tournament choice. In a more relaxed environment I find them fun and usable. But that's because in a fun environment they actually get to the enemy.

The % of a 9+ is 28%, or basically a little better than 1:4
With a reroll its 49%

The thing with the teleporting run people away from AOS batallion, they aren't the only things teleporting in.

Every four units deep struck in has one making it in. Not counting if you can find reroll shenanigans (and with the upcoming command point fun about to drop, i'll be highly surprised if rerolling alpha strikes are not a thing)

So typically when I see this deployed on me, there will be about seven or eight units coming in and typically three of those (it should be two but my luck is always three) units are in my face and pounding on my screens.

The retributors that don't make that roll are in combat turn 2... against my good stuff since my screens are tied up.

Its very frustrating and annoying because it requires very little thought on my opponent's part. THey just appear and do it.

But yes in a tournament environment, just like past editions of warhammer fantasy, faster units are always chosen unless you didn't hve the choice (dwarves). Powergamer Auticus totally agrees that a 28% of getting into contact turn 1 is hot flaming garbage, because I need a number close to 90% - 100% because that is most optimal, and thats what cavalry units that can move, run, charge, and spray your face with a sweet mortal wound load should be doing if I am aiming to win the golden treasure and accolades of tournament championships.

My GT army back then was either the black knight bus (all mounted vampire count cav loaded with characters in the front of one unit) or all mounted chaos knights, horsemen, and chariots.

I cracked top 10 several times with those. Because mobility is always going to be king unless they actually put in hard counters to cav like proper wargames do (spears that hard stop cavalry, hail caesar does something like this, whfb used to have pikes)

 Hulksmash wrote:
So, turn 1 sees them deepstrike or lightning chariot 9" away right? On the 82% chance they don't make that charge then they either move close and bock the line of advance without charging or get charged if you double turn. Either way you spend turn 2 in cc with the marauder/skink screen. Turn 3 is because in all likely hood you're out of charge range of what you cam to kill after that.

I'm not saying a single unit holds them 2-3 turns in cc. I'm saying it takes a 5 man out of the game for 3 of your player turns. But minimum 2. Now math says that's a win in a 5 turn game. It's a simplified example but the essential idea. But when all is said and done you get good screens easily in the top armies. Marauders, skaven plague priests, skinks, brimstones, and for 80pts per 10 even skellies.

A 10 man has a different dynamic but also suffers from costing over 20% of your costs.

In other words there are better ways to spend points. Which is why we see so dracoth mounted units in SCE instead of a slower unit. Which in turn makes them a bad tournament choice. In a more relaxed environment I find them fun and usable. But that's because in a fun environment they actually get to the enemy.

So when you said a screen holds them up for three turns you meant a screen holds them up for one turn. Because holding them up means additional rounds it takes them to get there, the rounds they would spend anyways without the screen don't count as being part of the screen's effect. And I am assuming you are admitting fault on the "hot garbage" even outside tournaments claim? Because that is what set off this line of discussion in the first place, at least for me. The opinion you are giving now is considerably different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:
My last game against stormcast with me using nurgle, the retributor squad chewed through my plague bearer screen in one turn and then took off 10 of my great unclean one's wounds before they finally went down.

They more than made up for their point cost.

Game before that they were responsible for wiping out my blight king unit and my plague bearer unit.

They are averaging about 15 wounds a turn, and barring really lucky rolls on my things that have a 5+ vs anything save, once they get into contact with me I'm done.

My screens are plague bearers. I have two units of 10. I can usually always screen them but that screen doesn't last longer than a turn.

The SCE armies also have other things that do a lot of damage too, so my target priority is saturated. They aren't running around by themselves, and they are going full bore into my force from the beginning so they are getting into combat by turn 2 and I have little at range that can really do anything to them.

Definitely not "hot garbage".

Hit penalties are your friend, a 30 man plaguebearer unit they have a huge amount of trouble with, even with starsoul maces. Also where is your witherstave!?

My bad, I did 2/11 and not 3/11. But we're saying the same thing. It was only Ninth stating I needed to get good to use them in a tournament army that was an issue. We agree in a more casual environment they are good and in a tournament environment there are better choices.

On topic I'm prettt excited for 2nd ed and what we've seen. I have high hopes but grounded expectations

I run multiple smaller units of plague bearers because I need the flexibility of moving them to cover multiple threats lol. But I'll look into grouping them up into an HIV blob of 30 to see how that does

I have begun penning an advanced version of Firestorm map campaign for the fall, so my interest level is fairly high right now as well.

Post that map up when you finish it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
My bad, I did 2/11 and not 3/11. But we're saying the same thing. It was only Ninth stating I needed to get good to use them in a tournament army that was an issue. We agree in a more casual environment they are good and in a tournament environment there are better choices.

On topic I'm prettt excited for 2nd ed and what we've seen. I have high hopes but grounded expectations

So you go from 'this unit is hot garbage [in any game setting]' to 'they are good in a casual environment and sub par in tournaments' in less than a page then act like nothing happened? Then try to brush it off by misrepresenting about what I said? Really?

The goal is a blog with battle reports. I've got it mandated that the models have base colors on them at a minimum so pictures don't show grey plastic or primered black at all for presentation

In before smoke-based nighthaunts that are a flat grey across the whole army.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
In before smoke-based nighthaunts that are a flat grey across the whole army.

I'm super pumped for that Nighthaunt Gloom paint. It's gonna be great for doing my Eidolon's wavecape.

Yeah that technical paint looks pretty boss... there's really no excuse for anyone from the noobest noob to the most veteran player to field an unpainted nighthaunt army with that stuff.

They still wouldn't meet the three color minimum

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Post that map up when you finish it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
My bad, I did 2/11 and not 3/11. But we're saying the same thing. It was only Ninth stating I needed to get good to use them in a tournament army that was an issue. We agree in a more casual environment they are good and in a tournament environment there are better choices.

On topic I'm prettt excited for 2nd ed and what we've seen. I have high hopes but grounded expectations

So you go from 'this unit is hot garbage [in any game setting]' to 'they are good in a casual environment and sub par in tournaments' in less than a page then act like nothing happened? Then try to brush it off by misrepresenting about what I said? Really?

Don't be a whiney baby man. I was speaking in tournament terms. I do apologize for not making that clear but that appeared to be the manner in which Erjack was discussing them too. However I stand by hot garbage in a tournament because there are better choices. As for what you said you literally said I didn't know how to use the unit and it's my fault their bad and that tournament players in your area handle them fine. If that isn't "Get good" then what is bubba? Coming at it sideways doesn't mean it isn't what you said.

It's possible your local scene isn't a good as you think it is or it's possible it's just different. That doesn't change that they don't show up in major tournament upper level lists and that they are easily sidelined by the big kid books. I only see them brought by people to tone down lists so they won't roll over newbies.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Post that map up when you finish it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
My bad, I did 2/11 and not 3/11. But we're saying the same thing. It was only Ninth stating I needed to get good to use them in a tournament army that was an issue. We agree in a more casual environment they are good and in a tournament environment there are better choices.

On topic I'm prettt excited for 2nd ed and what we've seen. I have high hopes but grounded expectations

So you go from 'this unit is hot garbage [in any game setting]' to 'they are good in a casual environment and sub par in tournaments' in less than a page then act like nothing happened? Then try to brush it off by misrepresenting about what I said? Really?

Don't be a whiney baby man. I was speaking in tournament terms. I do apologize for not making that clear but that appeared to be the manner in which Erjack was discussing them too. However I stand by hot garbage in a tournament because there are better choices. As for what you said you literally said I didn't know how to use the unit and it's my fault their bad and that tournament players in your area handle them fine. If that isn't "Get good" then what is bubba? Coming at it sideways doesn't mean it isn't what you said.

It's possible your local scene isn't a good as you think it is or it's possible it's just different. That doesn't change that they don't show up in major tournament upper level lists and that they are easily sidelined by the big kid books. I only see them brought by people to tone down lists so they won't roll over newbies.

How immature of me to ask that people make honest arguments. Devolving to personal insults has really shown me that your position is valid.

Let's all focus on the important thing right now...

Do you guys think my Idoneth are going to be able to summon an Eidolon?!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Let's all focus on the important thing right now...

Do you guys think my Idoneth are going to be able to summon an Eidolon?!

Whatever is the most broken would be where I would lean on

 Kanluwen wrote:
Let's all focus on the important thing right now...

Do you guys think my Idoneth are going to be able to summon an Eidolon?!

No, because their battletome was designed with the new edition in mind so if there was going to be a method it would have been put in already. A side point would be a need for some totally new mechanism to prevent it showing up in the first two rounds or so, tying it to tides doesn't work since they can be reversed.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Let's all focus on the important thing right now...

Do you guys think my Idoneth are going to be able to summon an Eidolon?!

No, because their battletome was designed with the new edition in mind so if there was going to be a method it would have been put in already. A side point would be a need for some totally new mechanism to prevent it showing up in the first two rounds or so, tying it to tides doesn't work since they can be reversed.

It's funny you say that, because there's the Isharann Rituals that could be used.

Rituals can only be used once per Hero Phase(not "per Ritual". You can only use one at a time), have to be done 9" away from enemy models. 2D6 with +1 for a Gloomtide, +1 if they're a Priest, +1 for each other friendly Isharann Hero(+2 for Priests)--requiring a 10+ to succeed.

I mean, we even have a Ritual right now that seems like it should have been used to summon and/or buff. The Ritual of Rousing.

I could see an Errata for it in GHB where the wording becomes this:

Before rolling, declare which effect you want from the Ritual of Rousing:
Place an Eidolon within 3" of the model invoking the Isharann Ritual.

Heal 1 Wound allocated to each friendly Eidolon on the battlefield. In addition, you can re-roll failed hit rolls and casting rolls for friendly Eidolons until your next Hero Phase.

I'd also add that I definitely feel like they could be given something preventing more than one of each type on the table at a time.

Also nooooo, I totally haven't been thinking of how a thing that has "summoned" all over its fluff/unit description could be summoned.

Don't they have 3 damage hammers? Doesn't that clean out hordes fairly quickly?

I don't see hordes as ultimately viable because damage spillover exists, and battleshock is a real thing in this game.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Let's all focus on the important thing right now...

Do you guys think my Idoneth are going to be able to summon an Eidolon?!

No, because their battletome was designed with the new edition in mind so if there was going to be a method it would have been put in already. A side point would be a need for some totally new mechanism to prevent it showing up in the first two rounds or so, tying it to tides doesn't work since they can be reversed.

It's funny you say that, because there's the Isharann Rituals that could be used.

Rituals can only be used once per Hero Phase(not "per Ritual". You can only use one at a time), have to be done 9" away from enemy models. 2D6 with +1 for a Gloomtide, +1 if they're a Priest, +1 for each other friendly Isharann Hero(+2 for Priests)--requiring a 10+ to succeed.

I mean, we even have a Ritual right now that seems like it should have been used to summon and/or buff. The Ritual of Rousing.

I could see an Errata for it in GHB where the wording becomes this:

Before rolling, declare which effect you want from the Ritual of Rousing:
Place an Eidolon within 3" of the model invoking the Isharann Ritual.

Heal 1 Wound allocated to each friendly Eidolon on the battlefield. In addition, you can re-roll failed hit rolls and casting rolls for friendly Eidolons until your next Hero Phase.

I'd also add that I definitely feel like they could be given something preventing more than one of each type on the table at a time.

Also nooooo, I totally haven't been thinking of how a thing that has "summoned" all over its fluff/unit description could be summoned.

The issue is that's directly equivalent to being able to drop a GUO on the board round 1 for free, drop a second one round 2 for free, and summon a new one if either dies.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The issue is that's directly equivalent to being able to drop a GUO on the board round 1 for free, drop a second one round 2 for free, and summon a new one if either dies.

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

On 2D6, with none of the 'bonuses' you have to get:
A 4 and a 6
A 5 and a 5
A 5 and a 6
A 6 and a 6

To get anything easier, you have to start positioning for it--which means that for turn 1, it's going to affect your deployment. While that might not sound too cumbersome, remember that in order to get the "+2" from having an Isharann Priest? It means your Soulscryers are starting the game on the board--which means you're not holding anything back to come on as a 'deep' striker.

To minimize your chances of failing at your Ritual, you're going to be piling things in--meaning they can't be used for anything else successfully.

There shouldn't be a chance at getting a free 340 point model rounds one or two, period.

Also, Royal Council plus a shipwreck = +4, now only needs a 6 to go off.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
There shouldn't be a chance at getting a free 340 point model rounds one or two, period.

Also, Royal Council plus a shipwreck = +4, now only needs a 6 to go off.

Royal Council plus a shipwreck still equates to you putting a Soulscryer(a full +2 of that +4) on the board rather than deepstriking two(3 if Briomdar) units in with you. The difference that makes is huge when put into that context.


Aspect of the Storm=400, Sea=440 by the way. But there's no options on them. You get what you get.

So royal council sucks then? Your opinion was different a month ago. We've come back to you trying to justify free buffs for the army you play that you wouldn't support for other armies.

If you support free Eidolons then you support Maggotkin being able to summon a GUO on a 2d6 6+ by parking a Harbinger, a Poxbringer, and Gutrot Spume next to a tree.

 Marmatag wrote:
Don't they have 3 damage hammers? Doesn't that clean out hordes fairly quickly?

I don't see hordes as ultimately viable because damage spillover exists, and battleshock is a real thing in this game.

Have we seen a preview of how damage is resolved in 2.0, or have they confirmed it will be the same as 1.0? I'm genuinely curious. Should they change it to 40k's method and excess damage no longer spills over, it would make hordes much more powerful, and basically completely change the way the game is played.

Also, the Eidolon speculation seems awfully wishlisty, Kan. If they were going to make a change, they probably would have done it in the Idoneth FAQ.

Ghaz wrote:

Spoiler:

They still wouldn't meet the three color minimum

There is 3 colours there though. Blue/white/black or Green/white/black. So perfectly legal.

They'd need to rebalance everything that does more than 1 damage to suit that. Often a low number of attacks will have a very high damage potential; they'd all need to get more attacks, that would then make multi-wound worse still.

It would break the system

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So royal council sucks then? Your opinion was different a month ago. We've come back to you trying to justify free buffs for the army you play that you wouldn't support for other armies.

I think you're letting earlier interactions color this one. First, I'm totally on board with the Royal Council. Nowhere in here have I said it sucks.

I said that half of the +4 that you mentioned is on the Soulscryer. The Soulscryer is a character that has one purpose, effectively: To bring in some hardhitting stuff as a 'deep strike' contingent and to make sure that stuff can almost guarantee its charge(since "Seeker of Souls" happens at the start of the Charge phase rather than Hero). Having him on the table at the start of the game is a problem.

Now, sure you can bring along 'spare' Soulscryers for the purposes of gaming the system--but you could also write it in so that this ability could only be triggered at High Tide. We have two different Command Abilities that have the same thing, some Warlord Traits, etc. I'd be fine with that.

If you support free Eidolons then you support Maggotkin being able to summon a GUO on a 2d6 6+ by parking a Harbinger, a Poxbringer, and Gutrot Spume next to a tree.

All honesty: did you just pick random characters from the Maggotkin list for your comparison?
Now, if you made it so that doing so only took the exact profile as listed(no Artefacts, weapons had to be as modeled, etc) and prevented further GUOs from being summoned by any means possible and it could only happen during a specific phase of the Corruption Cycle?

Sure. I'd support that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:

Also, the Eidolon speculation seems awfully wishlisty, Kan. If they were going to make a change, they probably would have done it in the Idoneth FAQ.

Of course it's wishlisty, but still--everywhere on the Eidolon it talks about them being summoned.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
They'd need to rebalance everything that does more than 1 damage to suit that. Often a low number of attacks will have a very high damage potential; they'd all need to get more attacks, that would then make multi-wound worse still.

It would break the system

It would definitely have some odd consequences, but they could make some core rules to help out. Maybe something like this:

Sweeping Blows - If a model is removed from play by the attack of a model with the Monster and/or War Machine keyword, any unsaved wounds that are left over are not lost but instead must be allocated to another model in the same unit. Keep doing this until all unsaved wounds have been allocated or there are no model left in the unit.

Inelegant, I know, but this would mean that Monsters and War Machines are still good against hordes, but units like Retributors have a niche against elite units.