Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Huh, so you can have allies from a different Grand Alliance eh? That can be interesting....

Again, these are the basic rule (Open Play). Match Play will almost certainly require all models to have the same Grand Alliance.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

auticus wrote:
Yep. And it can be added to a custom scenario pretty easily enough. Its a houserule so far as custom scenarios are considered "house rules".

Not sure why this needs to be an issue. There are no warscrolls for generic forests. Custom Scenario specific rules for generic terrain that has no warscroll.

You know what else is great?

Just letting the fricking rules be.

We'll that's a bit dickish. I see what he's saying. He now gets to point to a physical rule in the rulebook that he's using for his custom scenarios when one of his local belligerents asks why it has that rule. One less fight for him because it's a rule GW actually uses. He's not forcing a made up rule on others anymore. Seems pretty straight forward.

It might be a bit dickish, but to be honest? The game hasn't launched yet. He doesn't know what is or isn't coming. It literally states this:

OBSTACLES
Some terrain features are obstacles that block attacks to targets that lie beyond them. When this is the case, it will be noted on the warscroll for that terrain feature.
When a missile weapon targets an enemy unit that has all of its models within 1" of an obstacle, then the target unit receives the benefit of cover if the attacking model is closer to the obstacle than it is to the target unit.

The game isn't even officially launched yet and he's already planning on houserules and custom scenarios, which (let's be honest here) are just going to be complained about here that the players don't appreciate it. Should save himself the headache and not bother.

It's also worth mentioning that someone trying to argue that "there are no warscrolls for generic forests" is being a bit silly.

Read the Sylvaneth Wyldwood warscroll. It literally says it's a "terrain feature consisting of two or more Citadel Woods". Not that it's made up of two or more Sylvaneth Woods--it names the kit specifically.

I get that maybe people don't want the Sylvaneth rules in effect--but it is what it is these days.

 Kanluwen wrote:

auticus wrote:
Yep. And it can be added to a custom scenario pretty easily enough. Its a houserule so far as custom scenarios are considered "house rules".

Not sure why this needs to be an issue. There are no warscrolls for generic forests. Custom Scenario specific rules for generic terrain that has no warscroll.

You know what else is great?

Just letting the fricking rules be.

How about you worry about your own games and let other people worry about theirs? I've been using that rule for three years now. They didn't add any rules for generic terrain, so I'm going to continue to use mine until they do though I'm modifying mine to be more in line with how they are treating obstacles.

I have never since 1988 run only stock scenarios in any game I play, so creating custom scenarios and playing them is part and parcel to how I've always played, barring tournament prep games which are an entirely different creature. Even the NEO movement creates custom scenarios and they hold regular narrative events globally now and they don't use stock scenarios.

he doesn't know what is or isn't coming.

He has been verified that there are no rules for generic terrain.

which (let's be honest here) are just going to be complained about here that the players don't appreciate it.

I can promise you that scenario won't happen. The handful of people that hate houserules here all have their own league play now and have their own way to play group doing their own thing.

I'm out. Going to go get some work done on my Idoneth.

A sylvaneth wood is a sylvaneth wood, not a generic forest.

A sylvaneth wood is not a generic forest. It is a sylvaneth wood.

A generic forest is not a sylvaneth wood. It is a generic forest.

If I have a generic forest on the table it is not a sylvaneth wood. If I have two generic forests side by side, they are still not a sylvaneth wood. They are a generic forest.

There are no warscrolls for generic forest.

A few nice people I know that have all of the material in their hands now have confirmed to me that they didn't do anything with the terrain.

If it comes out that they did add a generic forest that acts as an OBSTACLE then great I don't need the scenario rule. Regardless ... there will be a rule that impacts shooting through forests in the games we do that matches what the design studio ddid for obstacles.

And all of it means exactly zero and has zero impact to you or your playgroup or your games regardless of what direction that I decide to go in. Getting heated over a scenario rule that will never impact you seems rather silly to me.

Now I *did* mention this house rule to Ben Johnson at the studio, and his response was attached... so who knows? Maybe one day it'll be a warscroll. Or maybe it won't. I'll use it regardless.

A lot of stuff HERE on Facebook, including this...

"Each Malevolent Maelstrom" Gives me hope that we can cast the same endless spell more than once!

Once I found out they cost points it seems unlikely (to me) that they'd cap you at just 1.

 Overread wrote:
"Each Malevolent Maelstrom" Gives me hope that we can cast the same endless spell more than once!

Of course it could be one for you and one for your opponent. We should know soon enough once we see more of the leaks.

Endless spells may still be capped at 1 per player, but since we haven't seen rules for that booklet yet, it's really hard to say. I wouldn't be too surprised if they're not capped since they do cost points, so you may only be able to have a number of them that you cast on the board equal to whatever you paid for at any given time.

auticus wrote:
Once I found out they cost points it seems unlikely (to me) that they'd cap you at just 1.

it'll probably be one of each spell per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidebar, Chronomatic cogs and Umbral spellportal are hilariously superior to the rest on a 1 to 1 basis. Critical massing the predatory spells could compete with them but if you're going to take just one CC and USP are crazy strong. Prismatic pallisade is up there too.

I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

The battle report on GMG looked pretty good, gotta say.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

Considering you never saw them on competitive tables really I feel that is very much intended with the new rules.

auticus wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

Considering you never saw them on competitive tables really I feel that is very much intended with the new rules.

What on earth are you talking about? Both Nagash and Morathi have been consistently finishing top 10 since the books dropped. There were 3 morathi lists and 2 nagash lists above the BEST stormcast list at the last GT.

I really am starting to think that the tables you watch aren't actually all that competitive.

I also think its a means to give the game something new that hasn't really been done much with any other fantasy game. That of giving a visual lasting side to spells; making them more than just another attack or a buff or debuff.

Whilst its clear that they are optional in the expansion its clear that GW wants to push them with spells for releases going forward.

I think its really exciting.


And yeah it will be interesting to see how caster heavy lists can do as well as how this fits into the points structure. We might even see GW lowering costs of units eventually; if spells become as much a bought part of armies as models.

ERJAK wrote:

auticus wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

Considering you never saw them on competitive tables really I feel that is very much intended with the new rules.

What on earth are you talking about? Both Nagash and Morathi have been consistently finishing top 10 since the books dropped. There were 3 morathi lists and 2 nagash lists above the BEST stormcast list at the last GT.

I really am starting to think that the tables you watch aren't actually all that competitive.

At adepticon there was a single morathi and there were zero nagashes (that I saw). What consistent GT results are you talking about with nagash finishing at the top? Thats news to me. If Adepticon isn't competitive, I'm not sure what would be. As well as the frequency of topics about how nagash is never used, I know I'm not the only one missing whatever it is you're seeing here.

 Overread wrote:
I also think its a means to give the game something new that hasn't really been done much with any other fantasy game. That of giving a visual lasting side to spells; making them more than just another attack or a buff or debuff.

Whilst its clear that they are optional in the expansion its clear that GW wants to push them with spells for releases going forward.

I think its really exciting.

Pretty sure my Magic expansion box for Warhammer Fantasy Battles 5th edition came with a bunch of cardboard templates for "Remains in Play" spells, some with an arrow to mark its direction of movement.

Warmachine has lasting spell effects out the wazzoo, from summoned walls to stone pillars to smoke clouds.

The sculpts are nice but at the end of the day they're still essentially making you pay for a 3" blast marker and similar "templates".

auticus wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

auticus wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

Considering you never saw them on competitive tables really I feel that is very much intended with the new rules.

What on earth are you talking about? Both Nagash and Morathi have been consistently finishing top 10 since the books dropped. There were 3 morathi lists and 2 nagash lists above the BEST stormcast list at the last GT.

I really am starting to think that the tables you watch aren't actually all that competitive.

At adepticon there was a single morathi and there were zero nagashes (that I saw). What consistent GT results are you talking about with nagash finishing at the top? Thats news to me. If Adepticon isn't competitive, I'm not sure what would be. As well as the frequency of topics about how nagash is never used, I know I'm not the only one missing whatever it is you're seeing here.

there have been a few GTs since adepticon.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The sculpts are nice but at the end of the day they're still essentially making you pay for a 3" blast marker and similar "templates".

While true, its the same as the argument that most minis games could be represented with marked bases. It's not wrong, just kind of missing the point.

I will say that as someone who really loves Warmachine, I have noticed increasingly how hard it is to feel anything from offensive spells. Spray effects aren't bad, but its pretty rare when you really feel like a spell feels as awesome as it probably should be. If nothing else, I've long wished PP would release models for some of the walls and such so they aren't just rings and tokens on the board.

stratigo wrote:

auticus wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

auticus wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

Considering you never saw them on competitive tables really I feel that is very much intended with the new rules.

What on earth are you talking about? Both Nagash and Morathi have been consistently finishing top 10 since the books dropped. There were 3 morathi lists and 2 nagash lists above the BEST stormcast list at the last GT.

I really am starting to think that the tables you watch aren't actually all that competitive.

At adepticon there was a single morathi and there were zero nagashes (that I saw). What consistent GT results are you talking about with nagash finishing at the top? Thats news to me. If Adepticon isn't competitive, I'm not sure what would be. As well as the frequency of topics about how nagash is never used, I know I'm not the only one missing whatever it is you're seeing here.

there have been a few GTs since adepticon.

Ok. Since March how many GTs have there been and when did Nagash suddenly start popping up in them? I realize "GT" is now a word being used like "pro painted" is to describe any tournament these days, but I'm only aware of two others and I certainly don't recall hearing about nagash being present enmasse.

 lord_blackfang wrote:


The sculpts are nice but at the end of the day they're still essentially making you pay for a 3" blast marker and similar "templates".

Aye and in my mind it makes all the difference. It's why we play with models not just a single base with a cardboard cut-out or word on a base. Templates are neat, but for things that last the model just stands out far better than a cardboard cut out.


Look how many people are talking and excited about spells in a totally different way. They aren't just looking at the pre raw stats of the spells, but at how cool and visually appealing they are to play with. Now granted at the competitive end its going to be all about the stats (or at least mostly) but the visual side is now going to be a huge area of appeal.

I love that the spells have models now. I was never a fan of cardboard cut outs or things like that. I like immersion and these definitely work toward that goal.

That being said, if you get the rules somehow nothing stops someone from cutting out cardboard and writing in marker "endless spell" with an arrow pointing the direction its moving.

Or get the old 8th edition vortex templates.

auticus wrote:

stratigo wrote:

auticus wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

auticus wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like 2nd Edition is pure sex for armies featuring mega-casters. Morathi and Nagash are going to have field-days with some of the tricks they can pull.

Considering you never saw them on competitive tables really I feel that is very much intended with the new rules.

What on earth are you talking about? Both Nagash and Morathi have been consistently finishing top 10 since the books dropped. There were 3 morathi lists and 2 nagash lists above the BEST stormcast list at the last GT.

I really am starting to think that the tables you watch aren't actually all that competitive.

At adepticon there was a single morathi and there were zero nagashes (that I saw). What consistent GT results are you talking about with nagash finishing at the top? Thats news to me. If Adepticon isn't competitive, I'm not sure what would be. As well as the frequency of topics about how nagash is never used, I know I'm not the only one missing whatever it is you're seeing here.

there have been a few GTs since adepticon.

Ok. Since March how many GTs have there been and when did Nagash suddenly start popping up in them? I realize "GT" is now a word being used like "pro painted" is to describe any tournament these days, but I'm only aware of two others and I certainly don't recall hearing about nagash being present enmasse.

The london GT. GW ran Heat 3 (I believe it was 3). Nasheville had a GT.

Like, there are a LOT of warhammer events on constantly, many of them very large and 'GT' level.

Ultimately, making Nagash better makes no sense since new summoning makes LoN drastically better, and they got not a single points nerf (Outside, strangely, the black coach. And battalions), nor did non summoning armies get an appreciable points buff.

GW has fethed every non summoning army and double fethed every non summoning non uber magic capable army.

To be clear, I am not contesting that there are GTs that are going on. I was challenged on my statement that Nagash is not seen on high end competitive tables, and further challenged that I'm not really watching or aware of true competitive events because Nagash armies have been regularly placing high at GTs.

I pointed out Adepticon as a GT I was at indicating that that was as competitive as it gets over here; the follow up was that there were several GTs after Adepticon.

When they announced summoning was once again a free spam fest (with a few more restrictions than its first incarnation in 2015 so you won't see it *as* bad as you did in the 1.0 days) and coupled with the endless spells being very powerful, there's no doubt we'll start seeing Nagash more, and probably on high end competitive tables.

But thats AOS 2.0, not today (which was where the challenge was... that he's running amuk there today and I was mistaken to say that you don't see him in successful world-championship calibre lists)

ERJAK wrote:

auticus wrote:
Once I found out they cost points it seems unlikely (to me) that they'd cap you at just 1.

it'll probably be one of each spell per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidebar, Chronomatic cogs and Umbral spellportal are hilariously superior to the rest on a 1 to 1 basis. Critical massing the predatory spells could compete with them but if you're going to take just one CC and USP are crazy strong. Prismatic pallisade is up there too.

The leaked Nighthaunt point list has has three endless spells for the Nighthaunt (Mortalis Terminexus, Shyish Reaper and Vault of Souls) at 60, 40 and 40 points each.

I have to say, seeing the General's Handbook stuff for Idoneth raises some questions for me.

--Why the 20 point boost on Aspect of the Storm?
--60 points more for the Leviadon seems reasonable, if I'm going to be honest. Especially if there's an errata allowing for it to benefit from cover.
--The points drop on Morrsarr Guard is HUGE. It makes me actually consider them rather than just autotaking Ishlaen.
--The points hike on Akhelian Corps is...weird.
--Points hike on Namarti Corps is totally reasonable. No sarcasm, it's necessary.
--Points drop on Soulscryer is nice.
--Points drop on Royal Council is also nice.

I'm flattened by the Seraphon changes. In a way that makes me feel bad playing them;

-Looks like the two most prolific for me battalions stayed the same or dropped (Bloodclaw dropped and Sunclaw looks the same)
-No point bump to slaan or astolith bearers
-Engine of the Gods summons 100-120pts in units if it goes off
-They increased the risk but also the reward of the teleport
-Some minor point drops on non-used units which is nice

I feel like I can easily manage 120-140pts per turn with a single slaan. And I got points back I used to hold back for summoning. Well, guess I'll ride it till GHB 2019

I really don't understand the Aspect of the Storm change the more I marinate on it.

If anything, it should have dropped in points further, down to 360 or so.

Where are y'all seeing these points? I'm eagerly awaiting my Maggotkin info