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So do we have confirmation on this? Because if true that is... Very disappointing.
At least that's the points from starter box pitched battle profile.
The points from general's handbook 2018 differ from that of the starter box.
While all SCE points from handbook were not leaked yet, some sources report that the evocators cost 200pts for a unit of five.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 08:15:05
Its kind of annoying how some people get access to all the rules a couple weeks before everyone else, because we can't all share in the context of the discussions properly.
But... the talk I'm hearing is that the seraphon are expected to move up to top tier now as they got hardly any point increases, but can indeed vomit out free points every turn pretty easily. On top of that they have teleportation abilities that can get them where they need to go without having to suffer through that pesky movement phase.
Chaos armies got some point increases, and they can't summon much save for Tzeentch, which is still not as good as the seraphon. Khorne armies seem to be the biggest losers since they can't summon much at all and got point jacks.
The power crowd seems to in this very preliminary moment be moving toward painting seraphon or stocking up on death because of their summoning abilities.
It seems that per usual there are some obvious winners (which I've even seen complained about this morning that the community can pick out in hours the obvious top tier combos where the design studio spends months playtesting and seems to miss it... or doesn't care about the balance and is happy to shuffle the deck on what sells more this edition) and that points may even be worse representation of balance than they were in ghb 16, with the bell curve getting a spike.
Some of the points changes I cannot comment on at all yet simply because I haven't been able to plug them all into azyr comp to rate their power vs their new points and get a new ranking system on what is way above the power curve for its points and whats not.
From hearing about some playtest games now that happened this week from the celebs that have the new rules and the games they are sharing with their play groups, my initial flailing about in doom and despair about free summoning was not unfounded.
The community however seems to be very very much in favor of free points and as many as you can get. And Listbuilding remains king. Long live the king!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/15 12:17:47
Well tzeentch took a hit (justifiably). Seraphon will be interesting but yeah 480ish points per game is very doable even if the slaan casts a spell from time to time. Seraphon won't be tzeentch/vanguard wing broken but they won't be far off.
I need to see battalion costs for SCE before I make a decision on them but if there isn't good terrain 100pt ballista are terrifying. Death came out smelling like a rose except for fec which without the ability to go over starting size with courtiers (which they could have just increased the points on) means they're staying at the trash competitive level since they also didn't get any unit reductions.
My poor ironjawz continue to get hosed. They dropped the points of the hard boyz but didn't change the horde bonus so there isnt an actual horde bonus. And brutes, who desperately needed a drop didn't get it.
Oh well. At least my order armies are fine....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/15 13:27:44
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
But on the plus side they are not tied to a specific mage which is a big bonus to getting them on the table rather than the enemy sniping off your one good mage in the army.
And it reads that you can recast the same spell any number of times if you lose it from the table, which makes them more than a one-shot wonder if they get disabled or removed or complete before the end of the game.
I like that they can be re-cast if they're dispelled. I'm also glad they're limited to one per army, though. I can't imagine the horror of trying to move across a board covered in Aetheric Pendulums
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
EnTyme wrote: I like that they can be re-cast if they're dispelled. I'm also glad they're limited to one per army, though. I can't imagine the horror of trying to move across a board covered in Aetheric Pendulums
See that was my dream - if not a whole field of them at least two swinging back and forth creating a nice nasty gauntlet to run through!
Make a scenario based on it? Perhaps two armies have encountered each other where the magic flows strongly and the spells have manifested on their own and they have to try and fight through them.
It does make me wonder what happens if you move a predatory endless spell into another predatory endless spell.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
EnTyme wrote: I like that they can be re-cast if they're dispelled. I'm also glad they're limited to one per army, though. I can't imagine the horror of trying to move across a board covered in Aetheric Pendulums
See that was my dream - if not a whole field of them at least two swinging back and forth creating a nice nasty gauntlet to run through!
I wanted to have a whole line of Suffocating Gravetides moving ahead of my Idoneth...
Why are people saying Tzeentch took a hit, am I missing something. Now we don't have a full picture and this observation is subject to change, but aren't pink horrors going to be nightmarish under the new summoning rules as pink horrors become blue horrors become brimstone horrors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 17:14:40
To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?"
Venerable Ironclad wrote: Why are people saying Tzeentch took a hit, am I missing something. Now we don't have a full picture and this observation is subject to change, but aren't pink horrors going to be nightmarish under the new summoning rules as pink horrors become blue horrors become brimstone horrors.
They basically did that anyway but they also used to just get added to other units nearby. This was a nightmare to grind thru. Now they have to be summoned as a new unit near a character at the end of the turn from what I'm seeing. No more placing them in combat with another unit when they die. It's a pretty big change and nerf to how they function. They are still hella strong magically but now they also can't just flood the board and pin you in by locking other units in combat with kills from another combat.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
auticus wrote: Its kind of annoying how some people get access to all the rules a couple weeks before everyone else, because we can't all share in the context of the discussions properly.
But... the talk I'm hearing is that the seraphon are expected to move up to top tier now as they got hardly any point increases, but can indeed vomit out free points every turn pretty easily. On top of that they have teleportation abilities that can get them where they need to go without having to suffer through that pesky movement phase.
Chaos armies got some point increases, and they can't summon much save for Tzeentch, which is still not as good as the seraphon. Khorne armies seem to be the biggest losers since they can't summon much at all and got point jacks.
The power crowd seems to in this very preliminary moment be moving toward painting seraphon or stocking up on death because of their summoning abilities.
It seems that per usual there are some obvious winners (which I've even seen complained about this morning that the community can pick out in hours the obvious top tier combos where the design studio spends months playtesting and seems to miss it... or doesn't care about the balance and is happy to shuffle the deck on what sells more this edition) and that points may even be worse representation of balance than they were in ghb 16, with the bell curve getting a spike.
Some of the points changes I cannot comment on at all yet simply because I haven't been able to plug them all into azyr comp to rate their power vs their new points and get a new ranking system on what is way above the power curve for its points and whats not.
From hearing about some playtest games now that happened this week from the celebs that have the new rules and the games they are sharing with their play groups, my initial flailing about in doom and despair about free summoning was not unfounded.
The community however seems to be very very much in favor of free points and as many as you can get. And Listbuilding remains king. Long live the king!
This seems a bit pessimistic. While Seraphon will no doubt be strong at tournaments they already were, and the change to teleporting is a big deal because tournament lists are all about eliminating chance as much as possible. A 1/3 chance of teleporting then getting a free move is great but comes with a 1/3 chance of not teleporting and then not moving (or shooting) at all. Were I tournament Seraphon I would prefer the old version, or even just a flat teleport without either of those two chances because it's something that can be counted on and planned for. Also, tbh it matters a LOT if Skinks stay the same or not. If they stay at 200 points for 40 then Seraphon will indeed be looking better for tournaments than they were. As for the point decreases, those units weren't showing up anyways so unless they got overbuffed I don't see it as much of a factor. Point jacks on Khorne looked like they were on Bloodletters, Bloodthirsters, and the Bloodsecrator from what I saw, which is just good balance as those things needed to go up (well 30-man bloodletters anyways, 10 and 20 man just got screwed but that's the nature of horde discount on that unit).
But that said...
which I've even seen complained about this morning that the community can pick out in hours the obvious top tier combos where the design studio spends months playtesting and seems to miss it
I share the frustration on this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: Death came out smelling like a rose except for fec which without the ability to go over starting size with courtiers (which they could have just increased the points on) means they're staying at the trash competitive level since they also didn't get any unit reductions.
I was concerned they would increase the cost of ghoul kings to compensate for their summoning, which really wasn't needed. I'm not surprised they didn't allow going over starting size since that's tremendously more difficult to balance, just increasing the cost of courtiers would have been bad for FEC overall since it would have made them even more screwed by early sniping (of courtiers or of units that are small for lack of having points to spend on them). But on the topic of shooting look out sir is a huge boost for them since sniping courtiers is an essential strategy to fighting them.
I think FEC should be pretty happy overall as they got brought up to par with the other non-cheese battletomes. At tournaments they won't compete well, but that has always been and still is a good thing because competing well at AoS tournaments inherently means the army is NOT balanced and needs a nerf.
So do we have confirmation on this? Because if true that is... Very disappointing.
At least that's the points from starter box pitched battle profile.
The points from general's handbook 2018 differ from that of the starter box.
While all SCE points from handbook were not leaked yet, some sources report that the evocators cost 200pts for a unit of five.
But... they're obviously better than paladins
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/15 18:04:38
I hope that isn't true. That would be... just bad. On the upside my particular tourney army has less problems with Stormcast than Tzeentch so I suppose a heavier stormeta would help me out in a way.
I hope that isn't true. That would be... just bad. On the upside my particular tourney army has less problems with Stormcast than Tzeentch so I suppose a heavier stormeta would help me out in a way.
Going to be honest: Paladins cover 3 units. Only one is reliably considered 'good'(Retributors)--at least from what I've read over the years.
I'm fine with a points drop on Protectors and Decimators, if only so they see some damn tabletime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 19:13:00
I hope that isn't true. That would be... just bad. On the upside my particular tourney army has less problems with Stormcast than Tzeentch so I suppose a heavier stormeta would help me out in a way.
Going to be honest:
Paladins cover 3 units. Only one is reliably considered 'good'(Retributors)--at least from what I've read over the years.
I'm fine with a points drop on Protectors and Decimators, if only so they see some damn tabletime.
I'll give you a slight decrease on decimators might be a good move, but having seen protectors on the tabletop quite a lot I think they were fine where they were. The defense against shooting for themselves and units behind them is big, as is 3" melee range. Also note that they are the same kit so if one option is even slightly better theres little purpose to assembling the others. Also also note that retributors are cheaper to get models for on top of that.
At any rate it's not that paladins were super strong and got a points reduction on top of it, its that they were largely good where they were (barring retributors which IMO could use a small increase to 230 pts) and didn't need a change. Though really just making the starsoul maces a separate cost (or 1 per 5) would be a great move--and its the starsoul maces that are a big reason why paladins simply can't be costed very low. Even a decimator unit has two and costing them lower makes them a cheaper package just to get the maces.
Dropping the cost of paladins is a direct kick to the balls of a lot of units of comparable cost that are nowhere near the survivability and damage output.
Since we're all inclusive and stuff now, GW hired a random babe to read the rules off a teleprompter and pretend she's not horrified by this weird manchild hobby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 20:10:21
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Since we're all inclusive and stuff now, GW hired a random babe to read the rules off a teleprompter and pretend she's not horrified by this weird manchild hobby.
There's a point where pragmatic practicality overrides stuff like having a male give tutorials for a male-dominated hobby. We all know that a chick will sell the tutorials better than a guy would, and that has nothing to do with GW.
Since we're all inclusive and stuff now, GW hired a random babe to read the rules off a teleprompter and pretend she's not horrified by this weird manchild hobby.
Not exactly a "random babe." She's been doing tabletop gaming videos with Geek and Sundry for quite a while.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'll give you a slight decrease on decimators might be a good move, but having seen protectors on the tabletop quite a lot I think they were fine where they were. The defense against shooting for themselves and units behind them is big, as is 3" melee range. Also note that they are the same kit so if one option is even slightly better theres little purpose to assembling the others. Also also note that retributors are cheaper to get models for on top of that.
And that's the rub. People have Retributors, they're easy to convert, and they're also really good units to boot. Taking a few Starsoul Maces in the unit doesn't hurt their weapons' special ability--it actually improves upon it IMO.
At any rate it's not that paladins were super strong and got a points reduction on top of it, its that they were largely good where they were (barring retributors which IMO could use a small increase to 230 pts) and didn't need a change. Though really just making the starsoul maces a separate cost (or 1 per 5) would be a great move--and its the starsoul maces that are a big reason why paladins simply can't be costed very low. Even a decimator unit has two and costing them lower makes them a cheaper package just to get the maces.
I'm honestly curious as to whether or not the Starsoul Mace is going to get a complete overhaul. I can't think of anything off the top of my head in the recent design iterations that are just "Pick a unit and deal D3 Mortal Wounds to it".
The closest that springs to mind is the Morrsarr Guard's "Biovoltaic Blast" but that's once per game and you have to roll a dice for each Morrsarr Guard. For every 3+ you get, you pick an enemy unit within 3" of the Morrsarr Guard and they take 1 MW--any roll of a 6+ makes the target take D3 MW instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
auticus wrote: Dropping the cost of paladins is a direct kick to the balls of a lot of units of comparable cost that are nowhere near the survivability and damage output.
And some Idoneth players would argue that upping the price of the Aspect of the Storm has killed its viability compared to "other units of comparable cost" that get to be summoned for free.
With that said: We haven't seen the Retributors' warscrolls as of AOS2. We know the Stormcast are getting a new book. We don't know what all is happening and the current design trends have moved away from just "Pick a unit, deal MWs".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/15 20:24:15
Thommy H has the right of it, so before you go writing off someone in a video in such a rude way make sure you have some idea what you're talking about.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
~1.5k
