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I don't see a whole lot of synergy between the deep strike ability and blitz, given that solitaires are typically in combat or dead, and in neither case can you blitz.

I'm also torn on the synergy between blitz and chromatic rush. I want to say it is pretty awesome to be able to blitz then pile in 6 and consolidate 6 (or a crazy 9 if midnight sorrow), but when I really think about it, given that the 6 inch advance is usually better than the +2d6 blitz move, it feels like paying 1CP for 2 extra attacks once per game that are awkward to trigger, and I'm not sure that's a great trade.

The -1 is just straight up good obviously no matter what, and I guess if you're inclined to take that, you probably want to retain blitz because otherwise you're giving up the movement potential that makes the model so scary.

Right now to me it seems to mostly come down to whether I am really going to want to use the DS one in some matchups. If I do want that option I'll probably keep blitz and tech; if I don't, I'll probably just replace it with chromatic rush and save the CP, because chromatic rush is straight-up amazing.

Yes, can't believe I forgot to mention Chromatic Rush, yes it is amazing. If you get Twilight Pathways off then there are very few places on the board your opponent's characters can hide.

Yeah, and that's what makes me question how often I'd really want to use the DS role. It just seems like you have a lot more control if you start him on the board; I don't like being at the mercy of screening and especially of just failing your charge: 3d6 discarding the lowest is still only about a 50% chance of success, or about 70% with a cp reroll. That's about 10% too low even with the CP for my comfort level.

The Solitaire is FOR SURE the dude you wanna spend the extra CP on to keep Blitz and get the -1 to hit.

I dunno, most of the time I think I'd rather have only chromatic rush than blitz *and* the -1, even if it *didn't* save a CP.

Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I'm thinking that if I kept blitz and added something, at least 90% of the time it'd be chromatic rush, not the -1...and that at that point, it isn't worth paying 1CP to keep blitz if you're taking chromatic rush too.

Death Jester is the clear winner here, all 3 pivotal roles are powerful and useful (worth using all) and for me pinning a unit so they can’t overwatch is just what we needed. I can’t be bothered rewriting all the tactics here as they’re all on the Harlequins reddit but there’s some seriously good stuff in these 6 pages of rules. Really small things to pick up on, for example when playing Curtain Falls on say a Solitaire you get to use your flip belt, which is huge, and if you fight twice you get to move again (obviously as it’s move inserted or consolidate or fall back) so you can move -> fight -> move -> fight -> move. Obviously you’ll need to think hard about what you declare charges against but that stratagem alone is insane. That With Cegorach’s Rose and Chromatic Rush you will be able to do some really cool stuff, Midnight Sorrow consolidating 9” and when that doesn’t work use Curtain Falls. Just so cool.

when playing Curtain Falls on say a Solitaire you get to use your flip belt, which is huge, and if you fight twice you get to move again (obviously as it’s move inserted or consolidate or fall back) so you can move -> fight -> move -> fight -> move.

That probably won't work, since moving "as if it were your Movement phase" instead of consolidating prevents you from getting within 1" of an enemy unit, so I see no legal way to fight twice if using Curtain Falls.

Hmm yes true, as it says ‘instead of consolidating’. But if you can’t move within 1” then can’t you just play the Curtain Falls strat then move, then use fight twice strat and pile in 3”/6”? As long as you declared a charge against the unit and it’s within 12” you can fight it right? I’ll admit my understanding of the rules is tested by these new Harlequins rules.


If that’s not the case then oh well, use it on bikes then. Move 16” -> advance D6” -> charge 2D6” -> move 16” back out of LOS. I am honestly in awe of how fun and imaginative these new rules are. I was always a bit in the “GW can’t write good rules” but this release has won me over.

Some random character setups since the new WD Pivotal Roles and relics. Just for fun:

Solitaire with Unnatural Acrobatics and Suit of Hidden Knives. I am operating under the assumption that the -1 from Unnatural Acrobatics means to-hit rolls of 2 become 1 and trigger the Suit ability. Just for the idea of the flailing enemy blundering onto the knives of the suit for extra lolz.

Troupe Master with Darkness' Bite and Player of the Dark for "maximum darkness" theme. Add the Veil of Tears relic for more survivability. Grinding out 2 automatic MW each time it fights even if it misses with every attack. There's no fluff saying how the Darkness' Bite ability work but I can imagine a "Omae wa mou shindeiru" (You are already dead) meme situation.

Hi all. So I’ve been trying to figure out if we can use The Curtain Falls and War Dancers. Here’s what I think we can do. I’ve also looked in the rule book regarding the fight sequence.
1. Choose any enemy units within 12’’ you want to fight and declare charge against them.
2. Those units declare and resolve overwatch.
3. Roll for charge and move units in.
4. Do pile ins and fight.
5. Instead of consolidating, play The Curtain Falls and move.
6. Use this movement to position yourself more than 1’’ away from another enemy unit.
7. Activate War Dancers and pile into any unit you declared a charge against. The rule book states ‘any unit that charged or has models within 1’’ of an enemy model can be chosen to fight in the fight phase’.
My understanding is that because my unit declared a charge against that enemy unit, it can be activated to pile in and fight again.

What are your thoughts?

Yes, Tyranids has been doing this for almost 2yrs now. It is a common tactic by a couple armies. We finally can do it too!

Could the second unit that use War Dancers on interrupt to swing first?

Yeah you can absolutely use The Curtain Falls with fight twice, as long as you declared a charge against the second target as well.

sweetbacon wrote:
Could the second unit that use War Dancers on interrupt to swing first?

They have to use it "right after an enemy has fought" so it would be after you moved and before War Dancers. Which means most likely nothing can fight that unit as you Move in the consolidation step, and War Dancers is at the end of the fight phase.

So we Curtain Falls + Murderous Entrance + War Dancers means out Caress/Kiss troupes can murder a lot of stuff we would’ve struggled with before hand. Yeah it’s 7CPs but if that guys two key enemy units then it’s well worth it. On Frozen Stars this is just golden.

I don't see much reason you'd want to take kisses any more, now that you have the option to make the other two 2D when really needed. Kisses have always suffered from the fact that aside from space marine characters, there aren't a lot of prime targets for a 4S -1 d3 profile; most stuff with multiple wounds has good armor saves but no invuln, which really limits the effectiveness of the kiss. They're great for killing 3+/4++ stuff, but how much of that is really out there? And now if you do run into that stuff...you've got a strat to make your other weapons effective against it.

Yep. When i was still playing nids (basically until their PA, then i sold them) My turn 1 was 14CP on average, and i won most my games. Honestly Nids are not that bad its just in ITC they are bad which is not Warhammer, its a completely different game with a completely different meta as to what is good and what is bad. But nids also had Shoot twice for 2CP, 1CP to double a run distance, 1 CP to double a gant/hgant movement, +1D to a MC shooting D, makes a piece of terrain not count as cover. etc.. They are even more CP hungry than we are for sure.

So having been playing that style for 1.5 years, its really fun and we could benefit heavily from it. The biggest difference tho is Genestealers are a lot cheaper for the same damage. Granted they are a 5++ compare to out 4++. But they get 5 free powerswords per unit and everyone else has -1ap with shuriken rule.

So our troupes might be a lot easier to kill and we will need to use more tactics to get them there compare to nids just shuffling lots of bodies at you (It fits the fluff for both armies very well actually).

I am changing my list from 6 troupes in 6 Starweavers to 5 troupes in 5 starweavers and 1x12 unit of Caress. I used to take 1 unit with Kisses but idk if i will anymore as we now have +1D melee (Kisses are great vs multi wounds 4++ units where str doesn't matter, or against FnP units).


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yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't see much reason you'd want to take kisses any more, now that you have the option to make the other two 2D when really needed. Kisses have always suffered from the fact that aside from space marine characters, there aren't a lot of prime targets for a 4S -1 d3 profile; most stuff with multiple wounds has good armor saves but no invuln, which really limits the effectiveness of the kiss. They're great for killing 3+/4++ stuff, but how much of that is really out there? And now if you do run into that stuff...you've got a strat to make your other weapons effective against it.

LOL I basically just said the same thing, so i fully agree with this.

Caresses are the stand out option. No arguments there however, there’s a few reasons you might run kisses.

1) they look cool and are a signature Harlequins weapon (nostalgic to those of us who played them in rogue trader days)

2) you stuck kisses on your models and don’t want to rip arms off.

3) buffed by the TM reroll to wound on S4 isn’t that bad. 2 CP on a unit to make them damage 2 is still 2 CP and as much as I hate d3 damage it does give us options against all the W2 and W3 units out there. Plus you can only play the stratagem once. I plan on running around 40-45 on foot, I can afford for some to be all caress and some all kiss, or maybe (heresy) a mix.

EDIT: we might want kisses when we see the Custodes or Death Guard PA rules. Who knows?

So what do people think about the polychromatic storm strat?

I'm thinking in reality I probably want to keep all my starweavers but deepstriking 3 troupes for 2cp and saving 240pts on transports is tempting!

Yes the chances of making the charges are a lot less but you're probably going to have another 3 troupes in weavers jumping out turn 2 as well to back them up. Could even have a prince of light troupe master give them rerolls / +1 to charge.

I'm also considering neuro disruptors, the 12" range and S4 -3ap d3 damage should at least do something even if they don't get in combat.

Or should I just save the CP and keep my weavers? So many decisions!

I think its good if you get seized on. Otherwise it's ok.

I think polychromatic storm is very strong. I think a mix of troupes in Starweavers and some large units on foot will work best. PS will be useful because it lets you put your units where you want them. Say you run a DJ, a unit of 12 barebones troupes and a TM. PS lets you put them right where you want them, up against your enemies key units you want to beat up or tag in combat. 12 man unit moves, advances, twilight pathways, charges. Charge something that you can beat or won’t suffer losses too. Pile in & fight, then Either consolidate into their other units or stay locked in combat. If you pin a key unit and they try to fall back and shoot you up use Twilit encore to keep them trapped in melee. If you shot this with the DJ with humbling cruelty then you’ll keep it in melee and can prob tag a whole bunch of new units too. All the other strats to aid protection like blur are optional depending on how you do it & if this is a tooled up unit with caresses etc but you want to kill as few of their unit as possible to stay in combat or to tri-point then elect to fight with S3 fists.

Polychromatic storm doesn't let you DS the three things you move for free, it just says you can put them in DS if they have the ability to do so otherwise. You could polychromatic something then webway assault, but you'd still have to pay for the webway assault, so if you want to start them in DS from the beginning I'd just do that. And it doesn't let you get around the 2 unit limit on webway assault either.

It's a good strat just like the craftworlds version is a good strat for other reasons, but it's not a free 3 units in deepstrike.

With Murderous Entrance now an option, does anyone think the oft forgotten Embrace might be worth another look instead of Kisses for the extra AP (Caresses are still the number option, IMHO)?

I've always used embraces. Mathematically they match or outperform both of the other weapons on virtually every target when you have a reroll wounds aura. The only time they really do worse is against stuff with a 4++ or better.

sweetbacon wrote:With Murderous Entrance now an option, does anyone think the oft forgotten Embrace might be worth another look instead of Kisses for the extra AP (Caresses are still the number option, IMHO)?

yukishiro1 wrote:I've always used embraces. Mathematically they match or outperform both of the other weapons on virtually every target when you have a reroll wounds aura. The only time they really do worse is against stuff with a 4++ or better.

Yep, its been shown many times that in general Embraces/Caress are better. There are for sure a few situations that a kiss was better. But with flat 2D i don't think we need Kisses for anything anymore.

You kinda do, and the reason for that is Murderous Entrance is only ever affecting one squad at a time.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't see much reason you'd want to take kisses any more, now that you have the option to make the other two 2D when really needed. Kisses have always suffered from the fact that aside from space marine characters, there aren't a lot of prime targets for a 4S -1 d3 profile; most stuff with multiple wounds has good armor saves but no invuln, which really limits the effectiveness of the kiss. They're great for killing 3+/4++ stuff, but how much of that is really out there? And now if you do run into that stuff...you've got a strat to make your other weapons effective against it.

Psst:

They're purposefully the worst option because you can make the whole unit with them out of the box, and old harlequin models have them.

Jokes on you, GW, my Harlequins are so old they have Powerfists - I mean Caresses!

 Amishprn86 wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:With Murderous Entrance now an option, does anyone think the oft forgotten Embrace might be worth another look instead of Kisses for the extra AP (Caresses are still the number option, IMHO)?

yukishiro1 wrote:I've always used embraces. Mathematically they match or outperform both of the other weapons on virtually every target when you have a reroll wounds aura. The only time they really do worse is against stuff with a 4++ or better.

Yep, its been shown many times that in general Embraces/Caress are better. There are for sure a few situations that a kiss was better. But with flat 2D i don't think we need Kisses for anything anymore.

Very interesting. I agree that the Kiss seems to have a very niche role. I think I'll try giving Embraces to my small 5 man units and Caresses to my large 10-12 man units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You kinda do, and the reason for that is Murderous Entrance is only ever affecting one squad at a time.

I only ever have 1 important fight a turn with Troupes so the point is moot for me. Otherwise its characters fighting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sweetbacon wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:With Murderous Entrance now an option, does anyone think the oft forgotten Embrace might be worth another look instead of Kisses for the extra AP (Caresses are still the number option, IMHO)?

yukishiro1 wrote:I've always used embraces. Mathematically they match or outperform both of the other weapons on virtually every target when you have a reroll wounds aura. The only time they really do worse is against stuff with a 4++ or better.

Yep, its been shown many times that in general Embraces/Caress are better. There are for sure a few situations that a kiss was better. But with flat 2D i don't think we need Kisses for anything anymore.

Very interesting. I agree that the Kiss seems to have a very niche role. I think I'll try giving Embraces to my small 5 man units and Caresses to my large 10-12 man units.

I personally like Caress better, but only b.c i value Str5 more than an extra -1ap. Could be how i play and who i play tho. I can fully understand wanting more rend.

I'd actually put the caresses on the small units and embraces on the bigger one, because the bigger unit is more likely to have the reroll wound aura support which is what makes the embrace arguably better.

If you don't have reroll wounds, caresses are significantly stronger against a lot of really common profiles - basically anything T4, anything with an invuln, and anything with a 5+ or worse to begin with, which is a huge amount of stuff when you add it all together. If you have a smaller unit that's going to be far from your character support, caresses are usually going to be better - though I would think carefully about spending points on weapons at all for a squad like that unless you're also shelling out for a transport, because five-man squads without the -1W wound aura tend to get picked up so easily by anything that it's going to be a big waste of points to give the whole squad weapons they won't realistically get to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. I changed my mind on the solitaire - you definitely want to keep blitz, for one very specific reason:

The Curtain Falls doesn't let you advance with your move (and if you're falling back you can't advance anyway). So if you curtain falls with a chromatic rush solitaire, you only get the 12" movement, whereas if you do it with a blitzing solitaire, you get 12+2d6" (or even 12+3d6 if you're midnight sorrow and you're falling back because something is still alive!). So you can blitz, assassinate something (fighting twice if needed), then jump an average 19" (22" with midnight sorrow if you're falling back) to somewhere safe so he can live to fight another turn.


IMO this makes it worth keeping blitz and paying the 1CP for chromatic rush or the -1 to hit in matchups you really need it.