Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!

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**RedGriefer**

If people were to run a pure harlequin army, what would be the main source of Anti-Tanks? Fusion pistols in starweavers?

**fresus**

As soon as the model officially comes out, I'll send an email to GW explaining how I can't deploy it by following the rules properly.
The "more than 3" from terrain" rule is really hurting it. I suppose it was originally put there to prevent models from deepstriking into terrain (even though the normal stratagems allow you to do it), and to look a bit cooler, but I can't see how it got past playtesting. Like even a single game with it would make it clear that the rule is broken.

Without it, I think I'll use it in casual games. It looks cool, and I'll probably use it to deepstrike a WK (even if it's technically not possible to have it wholy within 3" of the arches) or 3 Voidweavers

**bullyboy**

RedGriefer wrote:
If people were to run a pure harlequin army, what would be the main source of Anti-Tanks? Fusion pistols in starweavers?

I think right now the mix of fusion harlies in a weaver and haywire skyweavers are the way to go.

**fresus**

I agree, Haywire Skyweavers seem to be a viable choice for anti-tank now.
But they only work against vehicles, whereas fusion pistols also work on high-T non-vehicle. They're actually the only thing Harlequins have against high toughness.

**Goobi2**

fresus wrote:

Without it, I think I'll use it in casual games. It looks cool, and I'll probably use it to deepstrike a WK (even if it's technically not possible to have it wholy within 3" of the arches) or 3 Voidweavers

Luckily, you can fit a Wraithknight wholly within 3'' assuming the inside edge of the arches is over 0.32'' in width. Just measuring the circles from the center of arch edge creates an overlap distance of 3.316'' at the narrowest point. Thankfully, that gap is stretched wider by the measuring distances from the outer edges of the arch edges (which should add roughly the arch width to the overlap distance). The Wraithknight only needs a 3.622'' wide entry area perpendicular to the arches. So, even if the inner most edge of the Webway arch is only half an inch wide, it will fit a Wraithknight with just a little wiggle room.

**mokoshkana**

fresus wrote:
I agree, Haywire Skyweavers seem to be a viable choice for anti-tank now.
But they only work against vehicles, whereas fusion pistols also work on high-T non-vehicle. They're actually the only thing Harlequins have against high toughness.

True, but a Troupe Master gives the ability to reroll failed wounds in the fight phase, so there's an outside shot against monsters and such. Also, the potential for Mirror of Minds is huge. It does rely on luck, but that's kind of harlequin's thing, no?

**lambsandlions**

I think your main anti-tank will be your fusion pistols as they are good against both elite units, monsters and tanks. Your second line would be some haywire skyweavers as the haywire cannon is great against tanks and actually pretty good vs troops. Sadly voidweavers are just not good enough and you would rather take more fusion pistols.

**ryzouken**

Consider running a mixed unit of haywire and shuriken cannon skyweavers instead of homogeneous weapon units. Two units of four bikes with two of each gun in each unit, for example, instead of two units of four of each gun. This will let you pull casualties of the less desirable weapon in a given matchup. Facing Tyranids? Pull casualties from haywire to preserve your shuriken. Tank heavy foe? Pull shuriken before haywire.

Downside being: you have to build in inefficiency in your list.

**Galef**

ryzouken wrote:
Consider running a mixed unit of haywire and shuriken cannon skyweavers instead of homogeneous weapon units. Two units of four bikes with two of each gun in each unit, for example, instead of two units of four of each gun. This will let you pull casualties of the less desirable weapon in a given matchup. Facing Tyranids? Pull casualties from haywire to preserve your shuriken. Tank heavy foe? Pull shuriken before haywire.

Downside being: you have to build in inefficiency in your list.

I like your thinking

**the_scotsman**

Yeah and when it comes to their main weapon GW handily made it so you HAVE to mix because only one dude can throw a star bola, despite the kit having two of those in it.

Thanks GW I was really looking to repaint the arms of that squad I'd built with bolas.

**fresus**

mokoshkana wrote:
fresus wrote:
I agree, Haywire Skyweavers seem to be a viable choice for anti-tank now.
But they only work against vehicles, whereas fusion pistols also work on high-T non-vehicle. They're actually the only thing Harlequins have against high toughness.
True, but a Troupe Master gives the ability to reroll failed wounds in the fight phase, so there's an outside shot against monsters and such. Also, the potential for Mirror of Minds is huge. It does rely on luck, but that's kind of harlequin's thing, no?

The troupe master is indeed an absolute must against anything that isn't T3. But last time I was up against custodes, it didn't matter much.
I think I'm also very bitter than the neuro-disruptor doesn't wound on 2+. It feels like it was always costed as if it had the rule.

Star bolas are indeed a real joke in 8th. Only one model can fire them, and it's instead of their main gun. It should be much stronger, with 1 use only like in 7th. At least it would make sense to have multiple in the same unit.

**ryzouken**

Hmm. How critical are improved melee weapons on troupes if pursuing the melta clown car doctrine? My burgeoning list has 32 players in 6 cars carrying 26 melta among them. They're joined by 3 melta/kiss masters and a shadowseer.

I'm considering running 2x4 skyweavers with zephyrblades and an even mix of shuriken cannons and haywire cannons, but dropping one squad of skyweavers would let me take 4 embrace/kiss per troupe. I'm not sure which is preferable: a second unit of bikes to scoot around and shoot or melee weapons on 2/3 of my troops.

**lambsandlions**

ryzouken wrote:
Hmm. How critical are improved melee weapons on troupes if pursuing the melta clown car doctrine? My burgeoning list has 32 players in 6 cars carrying 26 melta among them. They're joined by 3 melta/kiss masters and a shadowseer.

I'm considering running 2x4 skyweavers with zephyrblades and an even mix of shuriken cannons and haywire cannons, but dropping one squad of skyweavers would let me take 4 embrace/kiss per troupe. I'm not sure which is preferable: a second unit of bikes to scoot around and shoot or melee weapons on 2/3 of my troops.

I am wondering this as well. If you are taking soaring spite you really want a full clown car of pistols but hopefully you don't need much else. This problem though is that harlequins are soooo much better with weapons than with swords. And at some point your starweaver will be shot down and you will want to clean up with melee weapons. So it might come down to an issue of just how much damage you need in close combat.

Just for example a caress or embrace kills 1.2ish MEQs per harlequin where the swords kill .3 MEQs per harlequin. So for 5-6 points you are making your clowns 4 times better in combat. With this in mind it is hard not to arm as many guys as you can.

**bullyboy**

lambsandlions wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
Hmm. How critical are improved melee weapons on troupes if pursuing the melta clown car doctrine? My burgeoning list has 32 players in 6 cars carrying 26 melta among them. They're joined by 3 melta/kiss masters and a shadowseer.

I'm considering running 2x4 skyweavers with zephyrblades and an even mix of shuriken cannons and haywire cannons, but dropping one squad of skyweavers would let me take 4 embrace/kiss per troupe. I'm not sure which is preferable: a second unit of bikes to scoot around and shoot or melee weapons on 2/3 of my troops.
I am wondering this as well. If you are taking soaring spite you really want a full clown car of pistols but hopefully you don't need much else. This problem though is that harlequins are soooo much better with weapons than with swords. And at some point your starweaver will be shot down and you will want to clean up with melee weapons. So it might come down to an issue of just how much damage you need in close combat.

Just for example a caress or embrace kills 1.2ish MEQs per harlequin where the swords kill .3 MEQs per harlequin. So for 5-6 points you are making your clowns 4 times better in combat. With this in mind it is hard not to arm as many guys as you can.

This is where the 2 battalion lists might work. One Soaring spite with fusions/swords in weavers and a midnight sorrow with melee weapons and shurikens in weavers

Off the top of my head

TM, caress, fusion 86
shadowseer 125
3x 5 harlies w fusions, blades 333
3 weavers 297

TM, caress, fusion 86
shadowseer 125
3x 5 harlies, 1 caress, 1 kiss, 3 embrace 291
3 weavers 297

1640pts so far so a few leftover for a solitaire or jesters

I'm not a fan of the dual battalion personally due to wanting a mix of units

**ryzouken**

Hmmm. My current setup for troupes is n-1 fusion to keep a cheaper dude around for crash absorbtion. Makes a five player unit cost 101 with all blades.

I'm definitely running two battalions. I'm not heavily interested in solitaire or jester at the moment, though I concede they can be excellent under the right conditions.

**lambsandlions**

bullyboy wrote:

This is where the 2 battalion lists might work. One Soaring spite with fusions/swords in weavers and a midnight sorrow with melee weapons and shurikens in weavers

Off the top of my head

TM, caress, fusion 86
shadowseer 125
3x 5 harlies w fusions, blades 333
3 weavers 297

TM, caress, fusion 86
shadowseer 125
3x 5 harlies, 1 caress, 1 kiss, 3 embrace 291
3 weavers 297

1640pts so far so a few leftover for a solitaire or jesters

I'm not a fan of the dual battalion personally due to wanting a mix of units

My main problem is that when you go deep with a starweavers they are going to get blown up and you are going to be next to your opponent so not being able to do damage in assualt is a waste. I know I am going to have a troupe master with the talon moving 28" turn one. When that starweaver dies (which might be hard as it will have -2 to hit and 3++) I want a unit of harlequins next to my troupe master that has weapons, so for at least the unit that rides with my troupe master I need caresses. For my second starweaver I am going to have my warlord shadowseer pop out after advancing and cast twighlight pathways so I would like that starweaver to also have weapons. So for at least 2 of the 3 soaring spite troupes I want weapons.

I just feel that pistols get too close to the enemy not to have a weapon on your harlequin.

**bullyboy**

basic harlequins will clear chaff though, although that's a horrible use for those armed with fusions.

I will be going for a mix as I just usually like redundancy, plus most of mine are already built and have a mix of weapons. Just hope they do something with the damned neuro disruptor.

**darkarchonlord**

Think about fusion clowns with strong CC weapons as one big joke on your opponent. They spend all this firepower taking out a model that's firing tons of high damage shots just to then be surrounded by stabby clowns WITH those same pistols.

Those starweavers will die, and that just moves us onto act II.

**Slayer-Fan123**

So with Dreaming Shadow having a great warlord trait for the ability they have. Deep Strike two max squads, and use the redeployment Strategem to throw your Death Jester into a better position and then your Shadowseer near your Clowns. Only problem is getting a Troupe Master nearer to make the most of the giant distraction whilst everything advances up or camps.

**Odrankt**

Just bought the Codex. Shadowseer w/ Veil of Tears and Webway Dance with a unit of 12 Troupes sounds nasty.

I wonder if it is better to have 1 Troupe Unit backed with 2 - modifiers and a shadowseer or 2 Troupe unit a with a Webdance Shadowseer with both units having a -1 modifier.

**Lithanial**

So now I've actually got the book in my hands, it's nifty Warlord loadout time!

Commander of the Masque
Shadowseer - Player of Twilight, The Starmist Raiment, Twilight Pathways
Usable by any Masque, you want to start on the table to farm as many command points back as possible. The 3+ Invulnerable to shooting, -1 to wound and your free save re-roll all help ensure you stay alive if caught. You can then turbo sprint up the board with Twilight Pathways to knock out a units overwatch capabilities where required.

Mind bullets
Shadowseer - Luck of the Laughing God, The Mirrorstave, Shards of Light
I've been scouring the core book and Mortal wounds are constantly referred to as "damage". In my book, that could well mean Luck of the Laughing God lets you re-roll 1's on your D3 mortal wounds for Smite, Shards of Light and the Hallucinogen grenades but i'd feel much more comfortable with an FAQ to confirm. Add on the damage output of The Mirrorstave with all those tasty re-rolls and you have quite the ranged powerhouse.

Master of Death
Troupe Master - Player of the Dark, Midnight's Chime, Great Harlequin
Player of the Dark turns out as the best "weapon" for a Troupe Master, adding over 1 kill per attack round at its base 5 attacks. Your Midnight Sorrow trait combined with copious use of the "Dramatic Entrance" stratagem will keep you bouncing between targets and the Chime combos well with your Great Harlequin aura for raw damage output. He will need support up with him to ensure he does not get shot apart, plus he is a complete CP hog, but it's probably the best raw damage output Troupe Master we can build.

Come join the fun

**BaconCatBug**

Lithanial wrote:
I've been scouring the core book and Mortal wounds are constantly referred to as "damage".

Incorrect.

Mortal Wounds always inflict one damage. The D3 for smite just tells you how many Mortal Wounds you inflict.

**TopperHarley**

Lithanial wrote:
So now I've actually got the book in my hands, it's nifty Warlord loadout time!

Come join the fun

As I said, I'm not a competitive player, (and I prefer Midnight sorrow as my masque) more about the fun but what about (on two Masques I likely wouldnt use)

Shadowseer (Silent Shroud) - Player of the Light, Scintillant Veil, Silken Knife

Extends the Shield from Harm ability and Player of the Light warlod trait (re-roll charges) to 9" each. Thats a good bubble. Pop the Shroud specific strategem to negate overwatch and get a big unit of Harlies (perhaps protected by Veil or Fog, or any of the strategems) in where it hurts. I suppose you could do the same on a Troupe Master, but it'll probably bite into the CP to keep a big footslogging unit alive without a Shadowseer around.

Or (cheap warlord)

Death Jester (Dreaming Shadow) - Luck of the Laughing God, Curtainfall, Example Made strategem, Shrieking Doom strategem

Re-roll hit, wound and damage rolls with the Curtainfall, and combine with example made to turn hits into two or (hopefully) three hits to hopefully knock chunks out of chaff units. And if he snuffs it fire off one last Shrieker Shot with the Curtainfall

**Amishprn86**

Also Mortal Wound section says they dont roll to wound, they just do wounds, if it is D3 you are still not rolling for wounds, so you cant re-roll them unless you have an ability that says "re-roll any dice" like command point re-roll.

**Lithanial**

It's not the re-roll wound part you are using. Luck of the Laughing God states you get to re-roll "Damage Rolls". It does not specify that you are only re-rolling the damage attribute of a weapon.

The core rules are 100% clear that Mortal Wounds are a source of damage being inflicted, not something different. As such what do you call that D3 roll to see how many mortal wounds are inflicted?

I'm pretty sure you would be calling it a roll to see how much damage is inflicted, a.k.a. a damage roll. But like I said, it could really do with an FAQ confirmation or denial since there is no past precedent for what that roll is actually called that I can find.

**Red Corsair**

Lithanial wrote:
It's not the re-roll wound part you are using. Luck of the Laughing God states you get to re-roll "Damage Rolls". It does not specify that you are only re-rolling the damage attribute of a weapon.

The core rules are 100% clear that Mortal Wounds are a source of damage being inflicted, not something different. As such what do you call that D3 roll to see how many mortal wounds are inflicted?

I'm pretty sure you would be calling it a roll to see how much damage is inflicted, a.k.a. a damage roll. But like I said, it could really do with an FAQ confirmation or denial since there is no past precedent for what that roll is actually called that I can find.

It's not unique, there have been other rules that let you reroll damage and you cannot use it on MW's. Mortal wounds circumvent the entire process. Your trying to now use part of that process you skipped over to impact your rolls.

On another note, I cannot believe how many people are butchering the whole example made, curtainfall combo. It's not even remotely close to the way 90% of the youtube players are using it. I'll be honest, I almost think an example made would be better used on a Troupe master with a fusion pistol at this point. It's decent enough on elite model units I suppose, but it is hardly the unit destroying combo initial reports were playing it as. It's not even remotely unclear which made me laugh. Some people must be blind to the word shrieker lol.

**lambsandlions**

Red Corsair wrote:

On another note, I cannot believe how many people are butchering the whole example made, curtainfall combo. It's not even remotely close to the way 90% of the youtube players are using it. I'll be honest, I almost think an example made would be better used on a Troupe master with a fusion pistol at this point. It's decent enough on elite model units I suppose, but it is hardly the unit destroying combo initial reports were playing it as. It's not even remotely unclear which made me laugh. Some people must be blind to the word shrieker lol.

How are people playing an example made wrong because it seems straight forward. (possible people were using leaked wording that was wrong) Are people playing curtainfall wrong? because the way the textbox is not divided for each profile may be causing confusion.

**fresus**

The textbox say the MW only apply to the shrieker profile, although I can see how someone might miss it on the first read.
The next sentence (about the -2Ld) is however less clear. When explaining the effect, it refers to "this weapon", not a specific profile. Given that the same wording is used for the normal DJ cannon, and only refers to the shrieker profile, it seems clear the -2 Ld only applies to the shrieker profile, but the wording is a bit unclear.

A DJ with Curtainfall, the double hit strats, the +1S/D3 damage strat, and the reroll warlold trait clocks at ~6 S8/AP-2/D3 hits, rerolling 1s to wound. That's quite a fun combo for a 45pts model. Not really a competitive one because it's locked to a suboptimal form, takes your warlord trait, a relic and 2CP, but it can be quite fun in casual play.

**Red Corsair**

Nope, +1 strength and d3 damage are on the shrieker round as well. That's the type of misplay I am referring to. The gun only ever does D3 damage and then mortal wounds on the shrieker profile, meaning your locked into one shot that can explode with the example made stratagem if you want. No where near as good as a lot of folks are thinking it is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
IDK maybe I am the wrong one. I keep rereading through it all though and it seems like I have it correct.

**fresus**

Red Corsair wrote:
Nope, +1 strength and d3 damage are on the shrieker round as well. That's the type of misplay I am referring to. The gun only ever does D3 damage and then mortal wounds on the shrieker profile, meaning your locked into one shot that can explode with the example made stratagem if you want. No where near as good as a lot of folks are thinking it is.

You're right, I'm one of the blind people