Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1) bs. The open crawl to TFA doesnt say the first order are an evil empire in control.

Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts….

Compare to

Episode IV, A NEW HOPE It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy….

You didnt know who leia was in 4 and you dont need to know who luke is in 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2) You rely on that nostalgia. There is an entire generation who just saw episode 7 as their first starwars movie. They are not relying on anything you are cor it to be successful.

 Lance845 wrote:
1) bs. The open crawl to TFA doesnt say the first order are an evil empire in control.

The words don't. The themes sure do. TFA is a remake of ANH, and it draws on the same "evil empire" themes as ANH in establishing the First Order. For the entire first half of the movie all you see is Evil Empire vs. French Resistance, complete with the same old star destroyers and storm troopers and evil jedi in black cloaks and masks. You don't even see the Republic at all outside of that half a sentence mention until shortly before the First Order destroys them (or some of them, or whatever, it's not like anything in TFA is ever explained).

2) You rely on that nostalgia. There is an entire generation who just saw episode 7 as their first starwars movie. They are not relying on anything you are cor it to be successful.

I seriously doubt it. Aside from the near-universal cultural knowledge of Star Wars do you honestly think there were that many kids who were old enough to see a Star Wars movie and interested in doing so whose parents hadn't given them any of the other movies yet? There might be a few, but that's hardly "an entire generation".

And of course they're relying on nostalgia. Did you even watch TFA? The whole movie is one giant nostalgia piece, full of references to the OT and attempts to milk the nostalgia cash cow. FFS, one of the biggest criticisms of TFA was that it never rose above the level of milking the nostalgia cash cow to become its own movie.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

Hope that no matter how desperate your life, the horse things are more important. A true lesson for all to mull over in the great morality play of SW.

LOL!

Kids are told by slavemasters everyday that those horses are worth more than them.

Then one day some heroes from the Resistance show up and confirm that.

 ingtaer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

Hope that no matter how desperate your life, the horse things are more important. A true lesson for all to mull over in the great morality play of SW.

I mean, those lucky kids even got to see the heroes rescue the horse things. What more could you ask for in life?

> shows scared kid secret Rebel ring

"It's okay, we're here to help"

> rescues horses, leaves kids

Don't worry, the next chapter in the morality play will have the kids forced to round up and kill all of the horse things because they're causing too much property damage.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
1) bs. The open crawl to TFA doesnt say the first order are an evil empire in control.

The words don't. The themes sure do. TFA is a remake of ANH, and it draws on the same "evil empire" themes as ANH in establishing the First Order. For the entire first half of the movie all you see is Evil Empire vs. French Resistance, complete with the same old star destroyers and storm troopers and evil jedi in black cloaks and masks. You don't even see the Republic at all outside of that half a sentence mention until shortly before the First Order destroys them (or some of them, or whatever, it's not like anything in TFA is ever explained).

TFA is SUPER similar in terms of plot points to ANH. 100% agreed. But YOU see evil empire because you SAW evil empire in 4 5 and 6. The movie drops you exactly where the opening crawl leaves you. It uses lines like "You're General Solo of the rebellion!" "I was" to give these characters their established place without actually having to have seen the old ones to get it. You get it all right there. Han is famous. He helped topple the empire. Hes fallen out of that and is disgruntled. Move the pulpy sci fi adventure forward. Again, you don't need to explain it! Nobody explains why Tatooine is run by a Hutt instead of the Empire. They don't need to. Crime lord. Scum and villany. You just accept it. Why did you accept it then but not now?

2) You rely on that nostalgia. There is an entire generation who just saw episode 7 as their first starwars movie. They are not relying on anything you are cor it to be successful.

I seriously doubt it. Aside from the near-universal cultural knowledge of Star Wars do you honestly think there were that many kids who were old enough to see a Star Wars movie and interested in doing so whose parents hadn't given them any of the other movies yet? There might be a few, but that's hardly "an entire generation".

And of course they're relying on nostalgia. Did you even watch TFA? The whole movie is one giant nostalgia piece, full of references to the OT and attempts to milk the nostalgia cash cow. FFS, one of the biggest criticisms of TFA was that it never rose above the level of milking the nostalgia cash cow to become its own movie.

Thats a very good way for someone to see it with a negative view. I saw it as a palate cleanser after 1-3. They did what they did, playing it a bit too safe, just to let everyone know they remembered what SW was. Because the remasters butcher a lot of the great moments of the original cuts and the prequels completely missed the mark. Playing it safe for 7 was smart. Hey guys. It's time for more serials with action and adventure. Not politics. Not CGI dance numbers. Not CGI flips. Not completely unbelieveable romance rolling down a giant CGI green hill with flowers. Not endless waves of CGI New Zealanders vs robots. No more 1 cool looking throw away bad guy per film we will kill off before you get a chance to like them.

Ep 7 laid a strong foundation that SW desperately needed. After almost 30 years of Lucasfilm making SW worse they really needed it.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

Who saved Shmi Skywalker from slavery?

It wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Anakin Skywalker. The so-called good guys. It was a nerf herding moisture farmer.


If you think to hard about any of the Star Wars films they fall apart.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

Who saved Shmi Skywalker from slavery?

It wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Anakin Skywalker. The so-called good guys. It was a nerf herding moisture farmer.


If you think to hard about any of the Star Wars films they fall apart.

Also, Qui Gon walks into Wattos shop. He trys to mind trick him into giving him the parts they need for free. Which is stealing. It doesn't work. He could have walked out into the street and mind tricked passer by into giving him their money until he had enough to buy the part. It's morally exactly the same thing as what he tried to do to watto. Instead he decided to place gambling bets on a child in a death race.

Great people.

You're defending the sequels by attacking the prequels?

 Riquende wrote:
You're defending the sequels by attacking the prequels?

No. I am attacking the prequels. Also the remasters of the OT for that matter. They are also much worse than the originals. Attacking them and defending 7 can be mutually exclusive.

But I AM asking why everyone was okay with all of this BEFORE 7 and 8 but now it's a problem for some reason. That bit confuses me.

 Lance845 wrote:

But I AM asking why everyone was okay with all of this BEFORE 7 and 8 but now it's a problem for some reason. That bit confuses me.

What is the 'all of this' exactly that people are okay with? There's very little I'm 'okay with' in the prequels, to the point where I've never independently owned them (legally or otherwise) other than the VHS of Phantom Menace I got for Christmas '99 which melted on my windowsill the next summer.

 Lance845 wrote:
But I AM asking why everyone was okay with all of this BEFORE 7 and 8 but now it's a problem for some reason. That bit confuses me.

I'm not really sure why you think people were ok with the prequels. I mean, aren't the prequels kind of the stereotypical example of NERRRRD RAAAAAAAGE?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
But YOU see evil empire because you SAW evil empire in 4 5 and 6.

And in general culture and science fiction. Since ANH it's become a standard genre element. Everyone knows what storm troopers are, and if you see them you can pretty confidently say that you're looking at an Evil Empire.

Thats a very good way for someone to see it with a negative view. I saw it as a palate cleanser after 1-3. They did what they did, playing it a bit too safe, just to let everyone know they remembered what SW was. Because the remasters butcher a lot of the great moments of the original cuts and the prequels completely missed the mark. Playing it safe for 7 was smart. Hey guys. It's time for more serials with action and adventure. Not politics. Not CGI dance numbers. Not CGI flips. Not completely unbelieveable romance rolling down a giant CGI green hill with flowers. Not endless waves of CGI New Zealanders vs robots. No more 1 cool looking throw away bad guy per film we will kill off before you get a chance to like them.

Well yes, the prequels sucked, I don't think many people are going to argue with you there. And perhaps TFA was a safe bet from a financial point of view, milking the cash cow of nostalgia while playing it fairly safe with a movie that wouldn't badly offend anyone. But the fact that TFA had reasons for milking the nostalgia cash cow, and did so more successfully than the utter trash of the prequels, doesn't change that it was a two-hour exercise in milking the cash cow of nostalgia that depends heavily on the audience being familiar with and invested in the OT. And it doesn't change the fact that this nostalgia exploitation and playing it safe was one of the most common criticisms of the movie.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

As the scene shows, the slaves hope and believe in a Jedi master who fights the Empire. Their little playing out of this scene with dolls is a tiny rebellion against their own masters. When grown up, perhaps they will be like Conan the Barbarian.

You may feel all is hopeless, but the characters in the film don't. They have, and express, hope.

If you want to rationalise the scene mechanically, the fact that the legend of Luke has reached a bunch of child slaves shows that the Rebellion has survived its disastrous situation at the end of TLJ and is able to spread rumours and propaganda all over the galaxy.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.

As the scene shows, the slaves hope and believe in a Jedi master who fights the Empire. Their little playing out of this scene with dolls is a tiny rebellion against their own masters. When grown up, perhaps they will be like Conan the Barbarian.

Strapped ten years into the pain wheel?

The problem is that hope is hope.. If there's nothing to work with that hope cannot blossom. Sure they can hope all they want, but the alien masters of the planet continue to feed weapons to the First Order, and the slaves clean (and probably will be helping catch those fox horse things)

 Mr Morden wrote:
IMO Its not that it is a bad "Star Wars" film but that it is a BAD film in general, what makes it worse is critics (and others) repeatedly and somehow claiming it is visionary, intelligent or clever and then on the counter punch claiming that anyone who disagrees is a racist/Sexist pig and/or Rapid star Wars fan who can't stand change.
[...]
The Reviews: Fundamentally dishonest which either points to corruption or coercion or a mixture of both.

Isn't it a bit... Hypocritical? Maybe not this exact quote, but you have voiced your opinion on this multiple times. Why can't people enjoy TLJ without being shills? Why do you paint everyone with one brush while being angry that some people do this to you?

 Peregrine wrote:
Well yes, the prequels sucked, I don't think many people are going to argue with you there.

Actually, lately I have seen A LOT of people defending prequels and saying they were quite good. Even things like "Jar Jar was not that bad" can be heard. <shudder>

Peregrine wrote:And it doesn't change the fact that this nostalgia exploitation and playing it safe was one of the most common criticisms of the movie.

True. Unfortunately, one of the most criticized things in TFA was Kylo.


My general thoughts about new SW films is:
TFA - very enjoyable movie. For me it felt like SW. Had one of the best action scenes from all three trilogies. Especially lightsaber fight (not over-choreographed or over CGIed, visually beautiful, between people who I knew something about and cared for at least a bit and which had some emotional background behind it).
RO - OK but ultimately meh and forgettable. Probably won't watch this one again as it does not evoke any strong emotions, good or bad.
TLJ - OKish but felt too long. My biggest gripe is that it does not "match" the FTA. Right now it just does not feel like this is a trilogy. Ultimately a waste of a good opportunity. I'm disappointed but not angry.

Isn't it a bit... Hypocritical? Maybe not this exact quote, but you have voiced your opinion on this multiple times. Why can't people enjoy TLJ without being shills? Why do you paint everyone with one brush while being angry that some people do this to you?

I don't know what a "shill" is and I certainly never called anyone that specific name.

I said paid film critics are corrupt or coerced - and there is definitely evidence to the latter if not the former in this very thread.

Beyond paid critics, and I see a general audience member as very different to someone paid to watch films and comment, it was also notable that whilst many people attacked the film itself not those who enjoyed it - some defenders of the film - paid or otherwise - would attack the person making the comments not their issues with the film. I also pointed this out (as did others).

I honestly don't understand anyone enjoying that film but recently met some people who do - but that's fine - I can discuss/debate/argue with them about that. I guess its like Deadpool - I HATE that character in the comics so never bothered with the films or make any comments about them in their threads as I have nothing relevant or positive to say.

Who saved Shmi Skywalker from slavery?

It wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Anakin Skywalker. The so-called good guys. It was a nerf herding moisture farmer.

Yep the Jedi are fine with slavery, stealing and the like - unless it directly effects them.

If you want to rationalise the scene mechanically, the fact that the legend of Luke has reached a bunch of child slaves shows that the Rebellion has survived its disastrous situation at the end of TLJ and is able to spread rumours and propaganda all over the galaxy.

Of course those children were also slaves under the new Republic and no one seemed to care - why would whatever structure the new rebels set up be any different? It does not seem to have any message, cause or anything other than maybe fight the First Order.

*** You have explained the hope at the end KillKrazy, thank you.**** Derp from Me removed.

What do you mean by "more real"?

I guess that maybe when they grow up they will change the galaxy because it revolves around a few force users?

There is also nothing to say that they will be good guys - growing up a abused slave and then suddenly getting magic powers does not necessarily mean you will turn out to be a force for good - a force for change - maybe, but there may be more vengeance taking than liberating.

In the meantime life will go on for everyone else and probably not much changed under the First Order given the lack of interest in the new rebels.

During the course of TLJ, you go from having a Resistance Fleet complete with capital ships and thousands of crew members, fighter compliment, and ground troops down to cramming a couple dozen survivors onto the Millennium Falcon. The Resistance very much is a spent force a the end of the movie, and there's no real hope for them to accomplish anything on their own anymore.

Yep its what 2 -3 days max to dismantle the ruling structure of an entire galactic civilisation and replace it with a new one - with apparently very little violence.

If they had had montage of the First Order crushing the people across the galaxy it might have had a bit more meaning and resonance but that sort of logic was probably far beyond the "writer". Was the point to somehow say that the republic was pretty much the same as the Space Nazi's -is that why we had the oh sooo edgy arms dealers sell to both sides and make money at it?

Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.

As you can see from the ending slave doll battle play scene, the word of the Rebellion has reached far across the galaxy.

Clearly it will turn out that people are responding to their calls for help. That naturally is a topic for the third film.

Except in the second movie it was explicitly stated that people were straight up ignoring their calls for help to begin with which is why they were traveling alone as it was.

The word of the rebellion has reached some slaves, but the governments don't care. They refused to provide shelter, they refuse to provide troops.

In the grand scheme of things this is not Mon Mothma pleading to the governments and getting "unofficial" help behind the back of the Empire. This is they pleaded and got absolutely nothing, refused and turned away at all calls from former allies and headed towards a destination so that they could desperately regroup while they were going to plan.

 Easy E wrote:
Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people fine with living under Fascist regimes. Make the trains run on time and you can get away with a lot.

That statement was made before the ending scene which clearly takes place at a later date because it cannot have taken place at the same or previous time.

Therefore the situation is possible to be different.

It's perfectly obvious that in the third film the Rebellion will have found some way to rise again.

So when the Resistance was at it's strongest, governments won't provide help.

But when they are down to about fifteen people in a rust bucket, they'll be willing and able to help to the best of their ability?

The First Order is still very powerful, they haven't lost much, if anything at all except for Snoke and a few ships while the resistance has lost a number of notable people... Okay I cannot get rid of my willing suspension of disbelief to believe that the governments are now very willing to provide as much power to the Resistance now at this date.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people fine with living under Fascist regimes. Make the trains run on time and you can get away with a lot.

yes but not always the very next day.....also facist regimes usually had opponents who would back resistance to them - this time its nope - almost every rebellion in history has required the support of foreign powers with their interests in play.

That statement was made before the ending scene which clearly takes place at a later date because it cannot have taken place at the same or previous time. Therefore the situation is possible to be different.
It's perfectly obvious that in the third film the Rebellion will have found some way to rise again.

Why couldn't it have taken place at the same time - its not like the film makers had any grasp of such things.

Why do the slave children think becuase a couple of people released some horses for a couple of hours (and then only as a distraction) think that they wil be freed under the same people who let them be slaves before?

The First Order might decree that no humans can be slaves and hey they are free.

Why does the aused slave child who gets magic powers join the "good guys" who ever they are by the time they grow up - unless they are going for another child prodigy

I am confident that you will see the answers to all your questions in part 3.