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Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make

firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia

secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time

and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.

overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?

Any RTS/4X TBS player was there- "I have no time to develop Ultralisks. So...zerg rush it is".

 john27 wrote:
Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make

firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia

secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time

and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.

overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.

He has broken the most sacred edicts of the mechanicum, innovation, mucking with the machine gods designs (because that’s what they think the emperor is) and handling Xenos tech, he is at the very least a heretek and at worst a traitor to the mechanicus, then we add to that he managed to do something no other person in the imperium or chaos had done, improve upon the space marine template, had he been foreshadowed and hints dropped over the years it would not have been such an issue, but he wasn’t, he was shoe horned into the fluff to justify the creation of primaris marines and represents the biggest retcon in 40k fluff since the newcrons were dropped (also to mixed feeling).

What needs to happen is a series of novels where he has to try to survive assassination from fellow tech priests, flaws coming out from the primaris project and the ramifications of creating a “possible” A.I, the reason I call him a bit of a Mary Sue is he hasn’t suffered ANY of the ramifications of his law (not lore) breaking actions, somehow knows how to improve marines and created new tech and improved on other, which is tech heresy, he needs to be fleshed out... badly.

 john27 wrote:
Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make

firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia

secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time

and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.

overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.

You are missing the main point. What he did was modification of the emperors design, something that was outlawed during the HH and the reason the 3rd legion fell well part of the reason. He also managed to keep this secret for 10000 years, with out a single Inquisitor who can know if a nurglings farts a system away. He also had tech for grav vehicles which he was just sitting on for 10000 years. All of this could have been used to keep soldiers alive during that time but no instead they used hand wavium to allow it to just appear.

He is not a Mary Sue for what he was able to do, he is aary sue because it came outta thin air for no reason other then here is this random dude that had all this tech and did genetic modifications and changed the emperors design.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that.

You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?

No because that's not what he did or said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.

Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.

I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.

The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).

Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.

I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.

I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.

Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".

Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.

With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.

I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.

Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.

Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).

I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.

Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.

A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.

I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?

Apparently the "we've messed with the Emperor's design but it's all right" galaxy-wide acceptance is a result of the Emissaries Imperatus deciding to accompany all the primaris deployments. Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question, but once they did, the Adeptus Custodes seal-of-approval essentially puts Cawls work beyond reproach.

locarno24 wrote:
Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.

That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.

 Formosa wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make

firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia

secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time

and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.

overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.

He has broken the most sacred edicts of the mechanicum, innovation, mucking with the machine gods designs (because that’s what they think the emperor is) and handling Xenos tech, he is at the very least a heretek and at worst a traitor to the mechanicus, then we add to that he managed to do something no other person in the imperium or chaos had done, improve upon the space marine template, had he been foreshadowed and hints dropped over the years it would not have been such an issue, but he wasn’t, he was shoe horned into the fluff to justify the creation of primaris marines and represents the biggest retcon in 40k fluff since the newcrons were dropped (also to mixed feeling).

What needs to happen is a series of novels where he has to try to survive assassination from fellow tech priests, flaws coming out from the primaris project and the ramifications of creating a “possible” A.I, the reason I call him a bit of a Mary Sue is he hasn’t suffered ANY of the ramifications of his law (not lore) breaking actions, somehow knows how to improve marines and created new tech and improved on other, which is tech heresy, he needs to be fleshed out... badly.

So basically he isn't any different to any Radical Inquisitor that hasn't died yet. They aren't Mary Sues and neither is Cawl.

Get. Over. It.

To be honest the Adeptus Mechanicus innovate all the time... is just that they do it veeeery slowly and they pass a TON of tests (Tests that are more religious than cientific in nature) before giving the seal of aprobal.. What do you think are all of those Mechanicus priest doing? They are developing things all the time and looking for old knowledge to learn, adapt, and remade.

But those innovations normally are inferior to the heresy and previous era equipement.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.

Well, of course if a Primarch like Guilliman came back, one who is a noted leader and statesman, it's perfectly logical he'd be leader of the Imperium. That's not a bad thing.

The main thing that I think you're fixated on is the fact it was Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, who came back, not that they became leader of the Imperium (a role which has been filled by regular Space Marines, I might add, and which Guilliman has occupied before.

You say Ultramarines are the poster boys - they're the poster boys in that it's their colour scheme which is used for everything. Ward's fluff is behind us. But frankly, even if we were to change the colour schemes on the front of every box, and then make another Chapter the face of the brand (and let's face it, every brand has one - even Stormcast have a favoured Stormhost over the others - do you see people kicking up a fuss there?), I can guarantee there'd still be people complaining it was the Ultramarines.

Frankly, if the Ultramarines get any kind of recognition, even if it makes logical sense, people will complain because "it's the Ultramarines".

Whether they are in real space or not is irrelevant, Girlyman was brought in as an Ex Machina, all the Primarchs coming back are, their return doesn't have to be anticipated at all, plus Girlyman was brought out of his coma from nowhere, suddenly the eldar come and save him, palease.

Actually, no.

Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting. It's akin to Chekov's Gun - if the gun is shown, it will be fired. We are shown the positions and statuses of Lion and Guilliman. One of them would return. Hence, Chekov's Gun.

With all the others, especially ones who went into the Warp, it would literally be a case of "they came out of the Warp one day". There's no suspsense, no building tension, no stakes - they just pop out and they're there again.

Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems".

The reason why Guilliman was brought back was obvious from previous books and the motives of the Ynnari: they want to use humanity as a blocking force, with Guilliman bolstering a faltering Imperium. It's in character, and foreshadowed in a lot of recent Eldar material, especially Fracturing of Biel-Tan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Want to cut down the text walls people?

Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.

Guilliman was never dead. He was moments from it, but he'd never died. Given that he was alive, his body's location known, and him being probably the most reliable and sympathetic Primarch that the Eldar could rely on to bolster the Imperium whilst they save the Eldar, Guilliman was a solid pick.

"Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting" Utter nonsense.

"Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems". - the rebirth was heralded, don't be dishonest, Girlymans revival was not, that came utterly out of the blue.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that.

You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?

No because that's not what he did or said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.

Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.

I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.

The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).

Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.

I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.

I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.

Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".

Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.

With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.

I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.

Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.

Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).

I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.

Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.

A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.

I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?

I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make

firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia

secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time

and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.

overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.

He has broken the most sacred edicts of the mechanicum, innovation, mucking with the machine gods designs (because that’s what they think the emperor is) and handling Xenos tech, he is at the very least a heretek and at worst a traitor to the mechanicus, then we add to that he managed to do something no other person in the imperium or chaos had done, improve upon the space marine template, had he been foreshadowed and hints dropped over the years it would not have been such an issue, but he wasn’t, he was shoe horned into the fluff to justify the creation of primaris marines and represents the biggest retcon in 40k fluff since the newcrons were dropped (also to mixed feeling).

What needs to happen is a series of novels where he has to try to survive assassination from fellow tech priests, flaws coming out from the primaris project and the ramifications of creating a “possible” A.I, the reason I call him a bit of a Mary Sue is he hasn’t suffered ANY of the ramifications of his law (not lore) breaking actions, somehow knows how to improve marines and created new tech and improved on other, which is tech heresy, he needs to be fleshed out... badly.

So basically he isn't any different to any Radical Inquisitor that hasn't died yet. They aren't Mary Sues and neither is Cawl.

Get. Over. It.

Interesting concept, wrong, but interesting, please explain how they are the same thing?

5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.

The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.

That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.

it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that.

You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?

No because that's not what he did or said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.

Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.

I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.

The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).

Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.

I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.

I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.

Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".

Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.

With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.

I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.

Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.

Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).

I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.

Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.

A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.

I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?

I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.

5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.

The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.

That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.

it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.

And their lore has been gak since then. Every other Chapter have flaws, have failed, are interesting. Any Primarch could have lead and made changes, they are Primarchs, they can do any job far better than any human or humans like the council of terra. I'd actually collect them in 30k, the horus heresy books has made them interesting. But in 40k they are still boring mary sue's, just look at calcars ridiculous accomplishments lol Girlyman was not the logical candidate, any of them could have come back, if they all came back at once and they debated who would best lead, then he'd be the logical candidate. l

Guilliman is in no way sympathetic to the Eldar. His job is literally to exterminate them. I'd be okay with the Eldar bolstering the Imperium the way they did if they'd had some kind of back up plan. For example including a psychic trap that would make him go traitor when his job was done.

I'm not saying Guilliman has to go traitor just that it would be much better to at least include an attempt to deal with him by the Eldar even if the only mention was the Emperor saying "There's a psychic trap in your brain. It's gone. Now go and fix things."

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that.

You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?

No because that's not what he did or said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.

Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.

I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.

The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).

Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.

I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.

I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.

Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".

Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.

With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.

I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.

Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.

Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).

I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.

Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.

A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.

I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?

I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.

5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.

The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.

That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.

it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.

And their lore has been gak since then. Every other Chapter have flaws, have failed, are interesting. Any Primarch could have lead and made changes, they are Primarchs, they can do any job far better than any human or humans like the council of terra. I'd actually collect them in 30k, the horus heresy books has made them interesting. But in 40k they are still boring mary sue's, just look at calcars ridiculous accomplishments lol Girlyman was not the logical candidate, any of them could have come back, if they all came back at once and they debated who would best lead, then he'd be the logical candidate. l

Oh yeah, the Ultramarines are always totally successful and stuff and never suffer casualties.

Have you actually read any of their lore or are you regurgitating a bunch of crap you read on 1d4chan?

Delvarus Centurion wrote:"Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting" Utter nonsense.

It's only nonsense if you don't understand or adhere to storytelling principles.

The widely accepted convention in literature is that something should be anticipated before it's reveal. It works this way in music, in dance, in theatre - it's far from nonsense.

"Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems". - the rebirth was heralded, don't be dishonest, Girlymans revival was not, that came utterly out of the blue.

Untrue. Firstly, Guilliman's body is established. We know what and where it is as a narrative object (unlike any of the lost Primarchs). We are also shown that there is hope - even if it's meagre (the fact that he's still alive, and some people say he's healing). Then, a few books prior, we are shown that some characters, who have a reason to support Guilliman's return, have the means to do so.

This leads to an organic, natural and anticipated return, instead of a "he came out the Warp because we wanted him to come back", which is what would most likely have happened with someone like Russ.

I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.

Ward wrote about the Spiritual Liege 3 editions ago, and what was it now? Ten years ago?

Their current stuff, objectively isn't any worse that a Chapter like the Imperial Fists. Their main focus now is that fact that they're on the cover of SM kits (which they were before Ward), and they have Guilliman - which doesn't hold up in an argument if Guilliman should have been the one to come back.

Again, saying the Ultramarines haven't had any losses is extremely reductionist.

But okay, in your view, using current and relevant lore, what is it that the Ultramarines have become that you don't like?

pm713 wrote:Guilliman is in no way sympathetic to the Eldar. His job is literally to exterminate them. I'd be okay with the Eldar bolstering the Imperium the way they did if they'd had some kind of back up plan. For example including a psychic trap that would make him go traitor when his job was done.

I think you're missing something here. Guilliman's job isn't to exterminate the Eldar. It is to safeguard and protect humanity. As a byproduct of that, he may be required to exterminate the Eldar. However, his main priority was to protect his homeworld, his empire, and then the entire Imperium. He trusts the Eldar because they brought him to life, and are the best hope of him reaching the Emperor, to guide humanity. If he hadn't trusted and worked with the Eldar, he would probably have either been killed in stasis, or chained up in the Maelstrom.

The Eldar DO have a backup plan. It's called awakening Ynnead and the fact that the Imperium is massively weakened right now.

What's the basic task of the Primarchs and the standard attitude of the entire Imperium? Hate the mutant, the xenos and the heretic.

Mutants get a pass when they're useful enough e.g. Ogryns and Navigators. Eldar don't. So either Chaos will remain in its current state or it'll eventually get pushed back and then a much stronger Imperium will go back to shooting Xenos. Unless a third race comes in but there's not much evidence of that. Whose going to join team elf? Orks? Tau? Necrons?

Ynnead is an awful backup plan. Ynnead is just one of about three or four plans to kill Slaanesh. The Eldar will be in a better place but not one that stops the Imperium killing them. They'll just be happier as bolters are shot into their faces.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that.

You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?

No because that's not what he did or said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.

Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.

I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.

The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).

Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.

I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.

I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.

Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".

Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.

With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.

I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.

Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.

Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.

On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).

I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.

Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.

A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.

I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?

I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.

5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.

The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.

That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.

it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.

And their lore has been gak since then. Every other Chapter have flaws, have failed, are interesting. Any Primarch could have lead and made changes, they are Primarchs, they can do any job far better than any human or humans like the council of terra. I'd actually collect them in 30k, the horus heresy books has made them interesting. But in 40k they are still boring mary sue's, just look at calcars ridiculous accomplishments lol Girlyman was not the logical candidate, any of them could have come back, if they all came back at once and they debated who would best lead, then he'd be the logical candidate. l

Oh yeah, the Ultramarines are always totally successful and stuff and never suffer casualties.

Have you actually read any of their lore or are you regurgitating a bunch of crap you read on 1d4chan?

They haven't failed on massive counts, they have no weakness like most of the chapters do and not just mutations. Of course they are going to lose battles here and there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:"Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting" Utter nonsense.

It's only nonsense if you don't understand or adhere to storytelling principles.

The widely accepted convention in literature is that something should be anticipated before it's reveal. It works this way in music, in dance, in theatre - it's far from nonsense.

"Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems". - the rebirth was heralded, don't be dishonest, Girlymans revival was not, that came utterly out of the blue.

Untrue. Firstly, Guilliman's body is established. We know what and where it is as a narrative object (unlike any of the lost Primarchs). We are also shown that there is hope - even if it's meagre (the fact that he's still alive, and some people say he's healing). Then, a few books prior, we are shown that some characters, who have a reason to support Guilliman's return, have the means to do so.

This leads to an organic, natural and anticipated return, instead of a "he came out the Warp because we wanted him to come back", which is what would most likely have happened with someone like Russ.

I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.

Ward wrote about the Spiritual Liege 3 editions ago, and what was it now? Ten years ago?

Their current stuff, objectively isn't any worse that a Chapter like the Imperial Fists. Their main focus now is that fact that they're on the cover of SM kits (which they were before Ward), and they have Guilliman - which doesn't hold up in an argument if Guilliman should have been the one to come back.

Again, saying the Ultramarines haven't had any losses is extremely reductionist.

But okay, in your view, using current and relevant lore, what is it that the Ultramarines have become that you don't like?

pm713 wrote:Guilliman is in no way sympathetic to the Eldar. His job is literally to exterminate them. I'd be okay with the Eldar bolstering the Imperium the way they did if they'd had some kind of back up plan. For example including a psychic trap that would make him go traitor when his job was done.

I think you're missing something here. Guilliman's job isn't to exterminate the Eldar. It is to safeguard and protect humanity. As a byproduct of that, he may be required to exterminate the Eldar. However, his main priority was to protect his homeworld, his empire, and then the entire Imperium. He trusts the Eldar because they brought him to life, and are the best hope of him reaching the Emperor, to guide humanity. If he hadn't trusted and worked with the Eldar, he would probably have either been killed in stasis, or chained up in the Maelstrom.

The Eldar DO have a backup plan. It's called awakening Ynnead and the fact that the Imperium is massively weakened right now.

Ex-Machina's have been successfully done, some jumped up writer, critic or worse professor deemed it bad writing. If done right it can be great writing, Homer has done it, Shakespeare has done it, but you read in some tired old textbook or took someones word that it was bad writing, its only bad if its done lazily like Girlyman. I never said they had no losses. Losing battles in war is to be expected, I mean failures in character in method etc. The only thing they failed in is a strict adherence to the codex.

One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.

Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.

Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.

Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.

Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.

 Formosa wrote:
One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.

Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.

Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.

Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.

Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.

Primarchs don't need any sleep at all, only once in a blue moon do they sleep. I wouldn't say he was scared by his awakening; however, he definitely hasn't taken it well.

pm713 wrote:What's the basic task of the Primarchs and the standard attitude of the entire Imperium? Hate the mutant, the xenos and the heretic.

Mutants get a pass when they're useful enough e.g. Ogryns and Navigators. Eldar don't. So either Chaos will remain in its current state or it'll eventually get pushed back and then a much stronger Imperium will go back to shooting Xenos. Unless a third race comes in but there's not much evidence of that. Whose going to join team elf? Orks? Tau? Necrons?

Incorrect. It's a tenet of the overriding philosophy of "humanity first at all costs".

Naturally, most non-human life is a threat, or potential threat to humanity. However, if the situation calls for it, alliance with other forces maybe be needed.

Take Pedro Kantor, Chapter Master of a second founding chapter, allying with Eldar in the aftermath of Rynn's World.
Take Marneus Calgar on Malbede, fighting alongside the Tau and allowing them to retreat from their orbital bombardment.
Take the War of the Beast, and Black Templars and Fists Exemplar allying with Iron Warriors against the Orks.

If the Imperium was so dogmatic as you say, then none of these would have happened.

Ynnead is an awful backup plan. Ynnead is just one of about three or four plans to kill Slaanesh. The Eldar will be in a better place but not one that stops the Imperium killing them. They'll just be happier as bolters are shot into their faces.

Slaanesh is the biggest threat to the Eldar. If they succeed in killing Slaanesh, and the Imperium still goes ahead and betrays them, their souls are actually safe for once.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:They haven't failed on massive counts, they have no weakness like most of the chapters do and not just mutations. Of course they are going to lose battles here and there.

Failure isn't the only mark of a significant narrative loss.

Ignoring defeats like Thessala, the Ultramarines had significant losses during the First Tyrannic War, as a result of their own flaw. The only reason they succeeded was largely in part to Calgar having to sacrifice something of great value (a narrative device well established) and then LEARNING from their failures.

The Ultramarine trait doesn't have to be this deep dark secret, or genetic mutation - tactical inflexibility and adherance to combat doctrine is a very real flaw. Hell, if we're only working on genetic flaws and deep dark secrets, what are the Imperial Fist's weaknesses? Their stubbornness? How is that any different to the Ultramarines' sticking to the Codex like glue?

Hell, the Ultramarines are narratively one of the most resolved Chapters out there, because their story has an actual arc. First, they have the Codex, and rely heavily on it. That's their flaw. Then, they are challenged, directly related to that flaw. Here, it's the new threat of the Tyranids, and of characters like Ventris, who challenge the flaw of the Chapter. However, after overcoming it, the Chapter changes and improves on that flaw.

It's a similar structure to Greek theatre and storytelling - and that's pretty solid.

Ex-Machina's have been successfully done, some jumped up writer, critic or worse professor deemed it bad writing. If done right it can be great writing, Homer has done it, Shakespeare has done it, but you read in some tired old textbook or took someones word that it was bad writing, its only bad if its done lazily like Girlyman. I never said they had no losses. Losing battles in war is to be expected, I mean failures in character in method etc. The only thing they failed in is a strict adherence to the codex.

Ex-Machinas can be successfully done, but they are done in such a way that is established in the setting, and often is anticipated as a possibility.

However, I do disagree on Shakespeare doing ex-machinas. In my experience of reading him, I've not seen one. Can you give examples of an unanticipated ex-machina from him?

Guilliman wasn't done lazily. It was barely an ex-machina. It was established in the setting, anticipated, and resolved like any other plot point.

Yes, they fail in their adherence to the Codex. Why are you pretending like that isn't a flaw of the Chapter? Does every Chapter need some crippling weakness? If so, that gets very dull. Giving the Ultramarines a subtle, believable and realistic weakness is, in my opinion, better than any gene-seed curse or evil past.

The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.

Naturally most alien life isn't a threat to humanity. They just become a threat because a certain man on a golden seat was crazy.

All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:What's the basic task of the Primarchs and the standard attitude of the entire Imperium? Hate the mutant, the xenos and the heretic.

Mutants get a pass when they're useful enough e.g. Ogryns and Navigators. Eldar don't. So either Chaos will remain in its current state or it'll eventually get pushed back and then a much stronger Imperium will go back to shooting Xenos. Unless a third race comes in but there's not much evidence of that. Whose going to join team elf? Orks? Tau? Necrons?

Incorrect. It's a tenet of the overriding philosophy of "humanity first at all costs".

Naturally, most non-human life is a threat, or potential threat to humanity. However, if the situation calls for it, alliance with other forces maybe be needed.

Take Pedro Kantor, Chapter Master of a second founding chapter, allying with Eldar in the aftermath of Rynn's World.
Take Marneus Calgar on Malbede, fighting alongside the Tau and allowing them to retreat from their orbital bombardment.
Take the War of the Beast, and Black Templars and Fists Exemplar allying with Iron Warriors against the Orks.

If the Imperium was so dogmatic as you say, then none of these would have happened.

Ynnead is an awful backup plan. Ynnead is just one of about three or four plans to kill Slaanesh. The Eldar will be in a better place but not one that stops the Imperium killing them. They'll just be happier as bolters are shot into their faces.

Slaanesh is the biggest threat to the Eldar. If they succeed in killing Slaanesh, and the Imperium still goes ahead and betrays them, their souls are actually safe for once.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:They haven't failed on massive counts, they have no weakness like most of the chapters do and not just mutations. Of course they are going to lose battles here and there.

Failure isn't the only mark of a significant narrative loss.

Ignoring defeats like Thessala, the Ultramarines had significant losses during the First Tyrannic War, as a result of their own flaw. The only reason they succeeded was largely in part to Calgar having to sacrifice something of great value (a narrative device well established) and then LEARNING from their failures.

The Ultramarine trait doesn't have to be this deep dark secret, or genetic mutation - tactical inflexibility and adherance to combat doctrine is a very real flaw. Hell, if we're only working on genetic flaws and deep dark secrets, what are the Imperial Fist's weaknesses? Their stubbornness? How is that any different to the Ultramarines' sticking to the Codex like glue?

Hell, the Ultramarines are narratively one of the most resolved Chapters out there, because their story has an actual arc. First, they have the Codex, and rely heavily on it. That's their flaw. Then, they are challenged, directly related to that flaw. Here, it's the new threat of the Tyranids, and of characters like Ventris, who challenge the flaw of the Chapter. However, after overcoming it, the Chapter changes and improves on that flaw.

It's a similar structure to Greek theatre and storytelling - and that's pretty solid.

Ex-Machina's have been successfully done, some jumped up writer, critic or worse professor deemed it bad writing. If done right it can be great writing, Homer has done it, Shakespeare has done it, but you read in some tired old textbook or took someones word that it was bad writing, its only bad if its done lazily like Girlyman. I never said they had no losses. Losing battles in war is to be expected, I mean failures in character in method etc. The only thing they failed in is a strict adherence to the codex.

Ex-Machinas can be successfully done, but they are done in such a way that is established in the setting, and often is anticipated as a possibility.

However, I do disagree on Shakespeare doing ex-machinas. In my experience of reading him, I've not seen one. Can you give examples of an unanticipated ex-machina from him?

Guilliman wasn't done lazily. It was barely an ex-machina. It was established in the setting, anticipated, and resolved like any other plot point.

Yes, they fail in their adherence to the Codex. Why are you pretending like that isn't a flaw of the Chapter? Does every Chapter need some crippling weakness? If so, that gets very dull. Giving the Ultramarines a subtle, believable and realistic weakness is, in my opinion, better than any gene-seed curse or evil past.

He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.

Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.

Fair enough it is a flaw.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.

Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.

Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.

Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.

Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.

Primarchs don't need any sleep at all, only once in a blue moon do they sleep. I wouldn't say he was scared by his awakening; however, he definitely hasn't taken it well.

Primarchs absolutely need sleep, its one of the reasons that Angron suffers so badly from psychosis, he could NEVER sleep due to the nails not letting him, and I meant scared as in a scar on his psyche.

pm713 wrote:The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.

Slaanesh is the only one who eats them after death, unless I'm mistaken. By and large, the Eldar will only have their souls be saved when Slaanesh is killed. Even now, they're only being kept in a psuedo-purgatory.

All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?

The Chaos threat reduced? The Daemon Primarchs are more active than ever, half the galaxy got split in half, and they broke through the Eye of Terror. How is Chaos REDUCED from what it was?

Those examples are still examples - if the Imperium was as intolerant as you say, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, the Eldar/Crimson Fist one wasn't a particularly large battle.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.

The majority of these are comedies, and in the case of Cymbeline, arguably a parody of Deus-Ex-Machinas.

Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.

It was still established and prepared prior to the action.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.

Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.

Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.

Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.

Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.

Primarchs don't need any sleep at all, only once in a blue moon do they sleep. I wouldn't say he was scared by his awakening; however, he definitely hasn't taken it well.

Primarchs absolutely need sleep, its one of the reasons that Angron suffers so badly from psychosis, he could NEVER sleep due to the nails not letting him, and I meant scared as in a scar on his psyche.

Not with the new lore they don't. Wolfsbane details how and why the Primarchs don't need sleep, whoever they can 'choose' to sleep, Russ said he never slept until one day he unententionally slept and dreamt of fighting Morakai and when he woke up Horus told him that he liked the emperor spear, meaning that he would die by that spear one day. Angron isn't psychotic he understood what was real and what wasn't, he was a psychopath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.

Slaanesh is the only one who eats them after death, unless I'm mistaken. By and large, the Eldar will only have their souls be saved when Slaanesh is killed. Even now, they're only being kept in a psuedo-purgatory.

All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?

The Chaos threat reduced? The Daemon Primarchs are more active than ever, half the galaxy got split in half, and they broke through the Eye of Terror. How is Chaos REDUCED from what it was?

Those examples are still examples - if the Imperium was as intolerant as you say, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, the Eldar/Crimson Fist one wasn't a particularly large battle.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.

The majority of these are comedies, and in the case of Cymbeline, arguably a parody of Deus-Ex-Machinas.

Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.

It was still established and prepared prior to the action.

So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.

These are all before Gathering Storm 3.

Not with the new lore they don't. Wolfsbane details how and why the Primarchs don't need sleep, whoever they can 'choose' to sleep, Russ said he never slept until one day he unententionally slept and dreamt of fighting Morakai and when he woke up Horus told him that he liked the emperor spear, meaning that he would die by that spear one day. Angron isn't psychotic he understood what was real and what wasn't, he was a psychopath.

Several books show they need sleep, one shows that Russ did not, so im going with the several on that one.

Also Psychosis and Psychotic are very different things, one can have psychosis and not be psychotic, but one cannot be psychotic without a psychosis, Angron was psychotic because he had a psychosis, he also had bi polar psychosis, and several other psychosis.

Psychosis
"a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality."

Which Angron clearly sufferers from amongst other things.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.

These are all before Gathering Storm 3.

Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.

Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

Not with the new lore they don't. Wolfsbane details how and why the Primarchs don't need sleep, whoever they can 'choose' to sleep, Russ said he never slept until one day he unententionally slept and dreamt of fighting Morakai and when he woke up Horus told him that he liked the emperor spear, meaning that he would die by that spear one day. Angron isn't psychotic he understood what was real and what wasn't, he was a psychopath.

Several books show they need sleep, one shows that Russ did not, so im going with the several on that one.

Also Psychosis and Psychotic are very different things, one can have psychosis and not be psychotic, but one cannot be psychotic without a psychosis, Angron was psychotic because he had a psychosis, he also had bi polar psychosis, and several other psychosis.

Psychosis
"a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality."

Which Angron clearly sufferers from amongst other things.

New lore always takes priority, there were tonnes of lore saying that the Lion and Russ were equally matched until you stated the 'one' new book in, which that wasn't the case.

They are not different things, I have psychosis and I am psychotic, its a common misnomer. He didn't have any problems with his grasp on reality, he was a psychopath though, which is what I thought you meant.