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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.

These are all before Gathering Storm 3.

Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.

I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.

Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.

Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.

I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.

Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.

How does that change the fact that they establish the story?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.

Slaanesh is the only one who eats them after death, unless I'm mistaken. By and large, the Eldar will only have their souls be saved when Slaanesh is killed. Even now, they're only being kept in a psuedo-purgatory.

All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?

The Chaos threat reduced? The Daemon Primarchs are more active than ever, half the galaxy got split in half, and they broke through the Eye of Terror. How is Chaos REDUCED from what it was?

Those examples are still examples - if the Imperium was as intolerant as you say, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, the Eldar/Crimson Fist one wasn't a particularly large battle.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.

The majority of these are comedies, and in the case of Cymbeline, arguably a parody of Deus-Ex-Machinas.

Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.

It was still established and prepared prior to the action.

Slaanesh captures and tortures them but I doubt they'll just go back to reincarnating with just Slaanesh gone. Besides even if they have a nice afterlife in the Warp it doesn't stop the Imperium killing them all.

You've missed my point. Right now Chaos is definitely stronger which is why Guilliman got brought back. But in the future they're going to get weaker again and unless they take Guilliman with them the Eldar are going to be in a worse position.

The Crimson Fist one was after most of the Chapter died though IIRC. The Imperium is that intolerant that's why they spend time exterminating Craftworlds, that's why they tried exterminating the Tau before they even had technology worth mentioning and that's why they spent so much time killing any humans who allied with Xenos. Xenos sometimes getting a pass is the exception to the norm.

pm713 wrote:
Slaanesh captures and tortures them but I doubt they'll just go back to reincarnating with just Slaanesh gone. Besides even if they have a nice afterlife in the Warp it doesn't stop the Imperium killing them all.

It's still preferable to eternal torture at the hands of Slaanesh. If their afterlife is that good (which I believe it is), what's the issue with their mortal selves dying?

You've missed my point. Right now Chaos is definitely stronger which is why Guilliman got brought back. But in the future they're going to get weaker again and unless they take Guilliman with them the Eldar are going to be in a worse position.

Chaos will only get weaker if the Imperium or some other force is able to fight back. Which the Eldar are facilitating.

When Chaos gets weaker, this will presumably when the Eldar have ressurrected Ynnead, and really at that point, whatever the Imperium do is inconsequential.

The Crimson Fist one was after most of the Chapter died though IIRC. The Imperium is that intolerant that's why they spend time exterminating Craftworlds, that's why they tried exterminating the Tau before they even had technology worth mentioning and that's why they spent so much time killing any humans who allied with Xenos. Xenos sometimes getting a pass is the exception to the norm.

The Imperium is hostile by default, yes, to fulfil their objective of humanity first. And absolutely, the exception is that they get a pass.

This is that exception, just on a larger scale. It's not "all Eldar" allying with Guilliman, it's just the Ynnari. They just happen to be a significantly large portion of the the Eldar.

They're still extinct and the other demons and such aren't going to just let them wander they're going to kill them as demons do.

That's true the Imperium will make Chaos weaker but having Ynnead around isn't a magic fix all for the Imperium. Plus it seems odd to me that the Eldar who aren't Ynnari didn't at least try creating a backup plan. There should be at least three factions in the Craftworld society with different aims not just Ynnari and everyone letting them do whatever.

Most people in the Imperium don't have a clue about that kind of thing. The standard view is that Eldar is Eldar. I don't really see all Eldar being seen as allies for as long as they have been.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.

These are all before Gathering Storm 3.

Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.

I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.

Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.

Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.

I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.

Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.

How does that change the fact that they establish the story?

I just hate Cawl because he broke numouse imperial edicts, got away with it scott free, and horded highly valuable tech that could have been used in the front line ages ago, IE just pulling grav tanks outta his ass, a piece of tech that lore wise has been lost since the HH to the point where only 1 space marine still had a grav vehicle in the entire setting, ravenwing, and cawl just goes lol nope had it all along. Then he also alters the emperors space marines and gets not negative repercussions because lol a primarch said it was ok, despite thata not really having any weight because the Big E already said no. And then, as if this could not get any better, some how, the inquisition, and organization who can smell a nuglings fat a system away, some how had no idea this random guy had been doing all of this for 10000 years, an orginization whos literal job is to keep tabs on everyone, some how missed the biggest freaking jump in technological and genetic modification in the last 10000 years.

Thats why i dont like Cawl because he is saint marry sue.

Did we forget Land Speeders are a thing? I thought grav vehicles stopped because the Imperium couldn't sustain the resource demand they had.

pm713 wrote:
Did we forget Land Speeders are a thing? I thought grav vehicles stopped because the Imperium couldn't sustain the resource demand they had.

No it was because they literally lost the tech to make them, they forgot how they worked the only reason we still had land speeders is because they never lost the STC to make them. Cawl on the other hand invented, which again is a no no, the repulser and some how just knew for the last 10000 years how grav tech worked.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.

These are all before Gathering Storm 3.

Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.

I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.

Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.

Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.

I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.

Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.

How does that change the fact that they establish the story?

I just hate Cawl because he broke numouse imperial edicts, got away with it scott free, and horded highly valuable tech that could have been used in the front line ages ago, IE just pulling grav tanks outta his ass, a piece of tech that lore wise has been lost since the HH to the point where only 1 space marine still had a grav vehicle in the entire setting, ravenwing, and cawl just goes lol nope had it all along. Then he also alters the emperors space marines and gets not negative repercussions because lol a primarch said it was ok, despite thata not really having any weight because the Big E already said no. And then, as if this could not get any better, some how, the inquisition, and organization who can smell a nuglings fat a system away, some how had no idea this random guy had been doing all of this for 10000 years, an orginization whos literal job is to keep tabs on everyone, some how missed the biggest freaking jump in technological and genetic modification in the last 10000 years.

Thats why i dont like Cawl because he is saint marry sue.

And where exactly did the Big E say "no" to Primaris Marines? You have both the Custodes and a Primarch saying, "they're ok" surely the custodes and a primarch know the emperor's wishes better then anyone else doncha think?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...

40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.

Can you quote where the lore was establish?

Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.

These are all before Gathering Storm 3.

Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.

I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.

Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.

Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.

I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.

Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.

How does that change the fact that they establish the story?

I just hate Cawl because he broke numouse imperial edicts, got away with it scott free, and horded highly valuable tech that could have been used in the front line ages ago, IE just pulling grav tanks outta his ass, a piece of tech that lore wise has been lost since the HH to the point where only 1 space marine still had a grav vehicle in the entire setting, ravenwing, and cawl just goes lol nope had it all along. Then he also alters the emperors space marines and gets not negative repercussions because lol a primarch said it was ok, despite thata not really having any weight because the Big E already said no. And then, as if this could not get any better, some how, the inquisition, and organization who can smell a nuglings fat a system away, some how had no idea this random guy had been doing all of this for 10000 years, an orginization whos literal job is to keep tabs on everyone, some how missed the biggest freaking jump in technological and genetic modification in the last 10000 years.

Thats why i dont like Cawl because he is saint marry sue.

Except Cawl isn't just some random guy. He is just a new character. Big difference.

So no Cawl isn't some Mary Sue. Get over your hate of Repulsors and Primaris Marines. It's pathetic at this point.

Mary Sue or not, the entire turn of events in the Gathering Storm and beyond have been low quality plot direction that breaks the status quo quite a bit in a setting where the entire IoM is brutally hostile to anything outside the norm. The work arounds for a lot of this are somewhat hand wavey logic that seems to be made to justify the end goal and brush past all the friction with the established lore. In short its plot written to get to the final result with all the middle bits being full of leaps in logic and semi plot holes.

 Vankraken wrote:
Mary Sue or not, the entire turn of events in the Gathering Storm and beyond have been low quality plot direction that breaks the status quo quite a bit in a setting where the entire IoM is brutally hostile to anything outside the norm. The work arounds for a lot of this are somewhat hand wavey logic that seems to be made to justify the end goal and brush past all the friction with the established lore. In short its plot written to get to the final result with all the middle bits being full of leaps in logic and semi plot holes.

See I can accept someone thinking it's low quality. I personally think it's all meh overall, but Cawl is one of the best things to happen because he's, when you think about for more than a second, SCARY.

He's precisely and literally in the truest sense a random dude who just showed up and did big things. He's only a somebody after the fact. Somebody I like to call Mary Sue. Learn to literature.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
He's precisely and literally in the truest sense a random dude who just showed up and did big things. He's only a somebody after the fact. Somebody I like to call Mary Sue. Learn to literature.

All new characters in a series are just random dudes that show up and can potentially big things. It happens all the time in fiction.

And you're telling me to learn to literature? Please do give the definition of a Mary Sue, which I already disproved for Cawl earlier in the thread.

I was unconvinced. Too much handwavium for heresy on such a monumental scale. The Custodes example is the authors handwave in action.

But I was referring more to your argument that Carl wasn't a random dude showing up, that he was a somebody..

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I was unconvinced. Too much handwavium for heresy on such a monumental scale. The Custodes example is the authors handwave in action.

But I was referring more to your argument that Carl wasn't a random dude showing up, that he was a somebody..

All new characters that have that kinda power newly introduced are going to be like that. The difference with Cawl is that some people have such a hateboner for Primaris Marines they say "Mary Sue" to him and the Primaris when they don't even know the definition of a Mary Sue. Hate the concept of Primaris Marines all you want, but learn your terms.

I understand that the term Mary Sue has evolved to become an author's wish fulfillment through a self insert. I suppose I'm old and still use it for a character of unprecedented ability and walks through all opposition with no drawbacks.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I understand that the term Mary Sue has evolved to become an author's wish fulfillment through a self insert. I suppose I'm old and still use it for a character of unprecedented ability and walks through all opposition with no drawbacks.

That's not even the old definition. The old definition has to do with the character seemingly being perfect, and Cawl is certainly not that. That's why he isn't promoted to Fabricator General. He HAS that much opposition and hatred from other AdMech members.

That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.

Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.

The list can go on.

Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.

“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”

Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.

 Formosa wrote:
Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.

The list can go on.

Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.

“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”

Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.

A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.

And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.

He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.

The list can go on.

Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.

“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”

Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.

A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.

And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.

He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.

You claim others can do it... who? who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person??

 Formosa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.

The list can go on.

Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.

“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”

Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.

A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.

And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.

He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.

You claim others can do it... who? who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person??

Cawl is a man with a mandate from a Primarch with, presumably access tools. there are a few cases of innovation in 40k. and almost all are simply refining ideas that already exist, which is basicly all the primaris tech is. as for who can take the space marine geneseed and improve on it?
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thrar_Hraldir

he nearly solved the issues with the Canis Helix himself. and had far less time and FAR less resources. Had Magnus the Red not slain him he would have solved it.

Cawl is a man with a mandate from a Primarch with, presumably access tools. there are a few cases of innovation in 40k. and almost all are simply refining ideas that already exist, which is basicly all the primaris tech is. as for who can take the space marine geneseed and improve on it?
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thrar_Hraldir

he nearly solved the issues with the Canis Helix himself. and had far less time and FAR less resources. Had Magnus the Red not slain him he would have solved it.

Cawl is a Heretek who has the mandate of a creature that may or may not be a primarch raised by dark magics and xenos heresy, access to heretical texts and tools, commits blasphemy against the omnisiah by thinking his designs above the machine god, has the audacity to think The machine gods designs is not already perfect and needs refining.

Thats the thought process of mechanicum adepts, they are ultra conservative to the point that fixing a cogitator can get you turned into a servitor, enhancing a telescopic sight can get you killed for tech heresy, Cawl gets to break the conventions of the setting in too large a manner with zero repercussions, he has knowledge of things that he should not have due to having never been in the fluff, I.E had he been mentioned in the older series of books "so the Big E did work on the primarch project with his top scientists and a young Bill Cawl" then it wouldnt be so bad, but they havent, instead we have the primarch project destroyed (deliverence lost) the primarch goo captured (same book) the facility destroyed with its Info lost (same book), so with Zero info on how to do it, Cawl improves space marines... its too big a gap, too big a plot hole, it really needs an explanation.



"Hraldir came closer than any other since the Emperor Himself at understanding the nature of the Canis Helix. "

The emperor and Cawl..... since cawl "cured" all the gene seed issues right? riiiiggghht? hahaha, joking aside, he came closer than any other, so he got to 98% to a cure rather than 99%, its too open ended to mean anything, its a big leap of logic to assume he would have cured the space wolves, but for arguments sake I will give you this one so long as you can answer the rest.

" who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person?? "

People can say waht you want, but cawl is an absolute mary sue.

The best example of this is when he just randomly goes lol i haad this suit i was working on for 10000 years to bring back guliman, who for all lore perspective was stuck in stasis but now he is fine.

So hell, not only is HE a mary sue, but he is such a amary sue that his mary sueness is bleeding over into other characters to turn into mary sues.

 Formosa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.

The list can go on.

Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.

“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”

Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.

A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.

And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.

He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.

You claim others can do it... who? who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person??

Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
People can say waht you want, but cawl is an absolute mary sue.

The best example of this is when he just randomly goes lol i haad this suit i was working on for 10000 years to bring back guliman, who for all lore perspective was stuck in stasis but now he is fine.

So hell, not only is HE a mary sue, but he is such a amary sue that his mary sueness is bleeding over into other characters to turn into mary sues.

He wasn't working on the suit for 10000 years. He had it basically ready but then he kinda went into stasis with no safe way to actually do anything about it. It wasn't the suit bringing him back, that was the Eldar. Did you read any of that fluff at all?

Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.

Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.

21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.

"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"

Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.

 Formosa wrote:

Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.

Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.

21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.

"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"

Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.

1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.

There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.

2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.

So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.

3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.

Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.

21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.

"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"

Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.

1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.

There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.

2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.

So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.

3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.

1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.

2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?

3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).

 Formosa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.

Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.

21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.

"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"

Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.

1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.

There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.

2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.

So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.

3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.

1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.

2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?

3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).

1. It was still improved upon, AND by people who aren't at the level of Primarchs. Simple as that. You can't deny that part, nor can you deny it was the outside circumstances that led to any failure with them.

2. It was a success, just not one that leads to clean looking Marines. They were strictly successes in terms of performance though. Did any of the Cursed Founding suck all the sudden for performance because of the mucking about with their Geneseed?

3. Clearly things get tweaked. Otherwise the 21st founding wouldn't have even happened, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.

Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.

21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.

"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"

Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.

1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.

There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.

2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.

So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.

3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.

1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.

2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?

3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).

1. It was still improved upon, AND by people who aren't at the level of Primarchs. Simple as that. You can't deny that part, nor can you deny it was the outside circumstances that led to any failure with them.

2. It was a success, just not one that leads to clean looking Marines. They were strictly successes in terms of performance though. Did any of the Cursed Founding suck all the sudden for performance because of the mucking about with their Geneseed?

3. Clearly things get tweaked. Otherwise the 21st founding wouldn't have even happened, right?

1: your still avoiding the point, how can it be ok for them to hand wave Cawl to have access to knowledge that does not exist in any form, the Enhanced marine project used the EMPERORS knowledge directly put into Coraxs mind, Cawl seemingly has pulled it out of his arse, so no, its not even remotely the same circumstances.

2: We will have to agree to disagree on this, from the point of view of the imperium its not a success, hence never trying it again, mucking with gene seed and producing mutants is heresy of the highest order, something chapters have been excomunicated for.

3: on a micro level, sure things may get tweaked, but not a macro level, a few laws here and there on a system or subsector level, but the imperium at large, nope, never, the core laws and ideals never change, they dont care how you worship the emperor for example, as long as you worship the emperor, those that dont are heretics and killed, enslaved, turned into servitors or sent to penal legions, change the status quo too much, like worshiping the emperor with proscribed rituals like blood sacrifice and your done.....

The Ad Mech is much worse than this.