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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Seems pretty straightforward cheating.

Look, at such a tounament... why would you cheat? You've gotten further than 99% of the people who play. You are being watched. Why would you get so far, just to become the most reviled and humiliated player on the planet?

Maybe he never would have made it that far without all of the little cheats along the way. People who tend to make "mistakes" in their own favor are doing it intentionally. Here's what I usually do when I'm tired:

Forget to move/shoot/assault with a unit.
Forget about special rules that apply in my opponent's turn.
Forget an entire phase.
Forget about units that aren't on the table.
Bump things by accident, but then let my opponent know and decide how it should be resolved.

I don't recall being tired ever making me say that I pre-measured distances two inches shorter than they really were.

Pink Horror wrote:

Maybe he never would have made it that far without all of the little cheats along the way. People who tend to make "mistakes" in their own favor are doing it intentionally.

Considering in the past he's had warnings about his sketchy game play style, and has been warned about cheating... I'm pretty sure you're right.

And when I'm 'tired' I will make all kinds of dumb mistakes and if they are in my favor, I'm too brain-dead to realize it and lose the opportunity to exploit it.

I think the worst I've been was I forgot my Primaris Marines had 2 wounds.

On the one hand, the GT was run like gak and a lifetime ban is harsh. On the other, unsportsmanlike conduct is cancerous to competitive play. It creates a terrible image for competitive environments, and only serves to create a greater dichotomy between casual and competitive play where there shouldn't be one.

On the whole, I agree with the ruling. Tournaments should be the last place where TFG behaviour is tolerated, and it's certainly the exact opposite of what sort of image GW or competitive communities should be projecting. If this reinforces that point, all the better. Cheating and otherwise ruining your opponent's game is not inclusive or competitive behaviour.

Pretty much everything noted this guy did can be attributed to poor gaming habits rather than actual cheating. However, people with such poor gaming habits don’t normally get to the top table.

SJ

I'm really surprised they didn't go back, look at his other matches, make sure there was a pattern rather than sloppy game play, and post other instances to show that pattern. My experience is that you find cheaters not just through your own dubious occurrences with them but by comparing them with other players in your local element. We had a couple guys banned from playing at the old local GW store after enough people brought it to management attention, who caught them in the act.

If everything was streamed and recorded then they had the ability to do it, even if it would be grueling. It's better then potentially slandering someone who might have been tired that game but otherwise played fairly.

Skaorn wrote:
I'm really surprised they didn't go back, look at his other matches, make sure there was a pattern rather than sloppy game play, and post other instances to show that pattern. My experience is that you find cheaters not just through your own dubious occurrences with them but by comparing them with other players in your local element. We had a couple guys banned from playing at the old local GW store after enough people brought it to management attention, who caught them in the act.

If everything was streamed and recorded then they had the ability to do it, even if it would be grueling. It's better then potentially slandering someone who might have been tired that game but otherwise played fairly.

They had video to go back and review of this game. Unlikely they had video of the other games. Not everything was streamed. There was 175 tables, no way they could stream all of that.

You can always try reaching out to his opponents in that case.

CassianSol wrote:


I don't care about the specifics of the stream game and what constitutes cheating. I haven't watched and have no opinion. However it is crucial context that he has a reputation. He was caught 'cheating' on stream at the South Coast GT last year (may have got the dates wrong) and has been dq'd in other events before IIRC. Previous attempts at changing his behaviour through discretion does not appear to have worked.

This being true then chances are the TO might well have gone back over his previous history at other events. Being caught cheating, esp within a short span of time, multiple times and being punished for it and still continuing is bound to be the kind of behaviour that jumps someone from a suspension into a life-long ban.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skaorn wrote:
You can always try reaching out to his opponents in that case.

Unless they have a video recording chances are memory alone isn't good enough. People forget things and focus on different things at any one time. Get a dozen people to watch a match and they'll all remember different bits and have a slightly different view on the game. Subtle motions and such and little mistakes would be the kind of thing people won't remember perfectly; or if they do will have a clear bias.

Video at least provides a means to review that doesn't suffer from those human limitations (esp if people have been playing games for a whole day and thus could easily mix up different matches

I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.

gungo wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.

I must admit that when I saw that I was very surprised, it could be that I was biased going into the video and looking for him cheating but even so... that looked pretty deliberate.

 Formosa wrote:

gungo wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.

I must admit that when I saw that I was very surprised, it could be that I was biased going into the video and looking for him cheating but even so... that looked pretty deliberate.

gak, I was biased the moment I heard who it was.

Let's just say this isn't at all surprising.

Just more proof that 40k isn't supposed to be a competitive game. The more we as a community, and GW as a company, can push the casual side of things, the better.

drbored wrote:
Just more proof that 40k isn't supposed to be a competitive game. The more we as a community, and GW as a company, can push the casual side of things, the better.

No, just proof of bad management.

He won LVO yet no one called him out. Winning LVO is like being a God. LGT was a hot garbage fire with the terrain issues. I wanted to go but was hestitant because of the cost and lack of track record. Throwing Alex under the bus to cover and distract from the real issues is totally unprofessional.

This is 40k... it doesn't matter either way now as the vast majority of people have already made up their minds with next to no evidence to support anything. As a historian I would watch the footage in detail with analysis of previous games but I don't care enough to even attempt that.

If he really did cheat and it can be proven, then banning is perfectly called for. Take a strong stance that cheating will not, under any circumstances, be tolerated. But only if you can prove that he deliberately cheated. I didn't see the footage, and I'm not about to watch it just to see if he cheated, so I have no actual opinion on this, but I do think that cheating should be taken seriously at any major gaming event, just as it is in actual sports (where records and wins can be stripped from you even after the fact if it is later found that there was doping, etc.).

If he's got a record of being censored for cheating at other events then a life ban ban is approperate. and I hope future tournies also give him the ultimate sanction if they catch him

 ZergSmasher wrote:
If he really did cheat and it can be proven,

Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.

 Primark G wrote:
He won LVO yet no one called him out. Winning LVO is like being a God. LGT was a hot garbage fire with the terrain issues. I wanted to go but was hestitant because of the cost and lack of track record. Throwing Alex under the bus to cover and distract from the real issues is totally unprofessional.

Though I think a lifetime ban is overkill, I’m happy to see a GT actually, recognize, call out, and punish cheating for once. Because the response of previous TOs has literally been “oh well he’s actually a great guy” whenever slow play or illegal lists have been seen at top tables.

I fully support life-time bans for cheaters. Their toxic to a community, and it doesn't take much to ruin an event or gaming group. I would gladly play crowded tables, poor terrain, and rushed play, before I play with cheaters.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
If he really did cheat and it can be proven,

Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.

Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.

Cheating in the final of a tournament when you know it's being livestreamed

Sounds like a cheap trick to get more clicks and ad views on the Twitch stream.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures

I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?

The former is a public instution and the latter is a private event.

If you go into a McDonald's and tell the cashier he should kill himself do you think you have the right to continue to be served by that McDonald's?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures

I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?

The former is a public instution and the latter is a private event.

If you go into a McDonald's and tell the cashier he should kill himself do you think you have the right to continue to be served by that McDonald's?

Hyperbole much? How is telling someone i'm going to kill myself and then asking for service the same thing as being told you did something wrong and you have a right to stand up for yourself? It doest.

He's a toad that has done this multiple times. Delighted that he's finally been called out on it. Him and his kind are a cancer on the hobby scene

man, that stigma is stuck with him forever, every one of his opponents will have that inclination to watch his every move, for mishap during live stream, even if he is tired. His response was palpable, gaining no advantage for what he did during game was BS, as those pointed out in the reddit replies, most obvious was picking up opponents wound counter, I don't know how that could of happened. I don't agree with the perma ban, but to each of TO's decision.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures

I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?

The former is a public instution and the latter is a private event.

If you go into a McDonald's and tell the cashier he should kill himself do you think you have the right to continue to be served by that McDonald's?

If Mcdonald accuses you of doing that despite not having done you have no right to defend yourself?

tneva82 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
He may not be a cheater, but he is kind of a doofus for trying to argue his point in a highly condesending manner to authority figures

I can argue my police tickets if i think i was wrongfully accused, how is this any different?

The former is a public instution and the latter is a private event.

If you go into a McDonald's and tell the cashier he should kill himself do you think you have the right to continue to be served by that McDonald's?

If Mcdonald accuses you of doing that despite not having done you have no right to defend yourself?

sure but if there's a security video that shows you doing it clearly don't expect a lot of sympathy when you whine "BUT I HAD A BAD DAY AND WAS TIRED"

If he attributes all of his mistakes to "I was hung over and tired", that's still probably his fault.

It should have been his responsibility to take care of his body and be in an acceptable playing state. If I'm doing a show, then I'm required to be awake, alert, and in control of my situation before every gig. I shouldn't be drinking myself silly before one - and the same should have been applied here. I can't speak for time, because apparently the event was poorly managed with regards to things like that, but he admits he had been drinking - that was his choice, and he should have known it could affect him negatively.