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 Peregrine wrote:

 Kilgore19d wrote:
I never said cheating shouldn't be punished.

And I never said you did. I quoted your statement that the cheater in the OP is "not a problem", which you clearly said.

Misquote on my part. I was referring to his/her comparison of the problems of online gaming vs the problems of table top gaming.

 Odrankt wrote:
He probably did cheat on purpose but there was a lot of 40k streamed and I am sure a lot of other people cheated/misplayed while on stream and was not called out for it. If your putting the time and effort into accuse someone of cheating at least accuse a few more people so you have more evidence to show what cheating is and to see if others mis-play like him. At least it wouldn't look like its an Event vs 1 person as it is now.

This has got to be one of he most ludicrous statements I have seen in a long time. Sure that guy cheated but you can't just single him out just because he's on video tape. You have to find everyone else who cheated and punish them as well. If you can't find them all then no one should be punished.

How about we get rid of cheaters one at a time as we find them. If multiple people are caught cheating then get rid of all of them. The "But there are others doing the same thing" defense only works until you hit age 4 after that it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. You're responsible for your actions. Man up and accept the consequences.

 Kilgore19d wrote:
I wasn't personally involved in those cases, it was just happening in my gaming community during 6th edition and I witnessed them. About the last two years of 'Ard Boyz. (I think that was 6th edition)

I should also be one to offer advice: When a local community gets 'toxic' with a bunch of jerks, bullies, crybabies, tryhards, cheaters, and what-have-you... there's a solution. You get together with the good players and start working on making a private gaming club- and you start buying your stuff online and stop shopping at the FLGS. One of two things will happen:

1- You'll create a private gaming club that you can determine who gets to participate, and you'll keep out the scumbags. It'll be a lot more comfortable gaming for everyone involved and you can do great things like have a beer and pretzels game in the garage.

2- Shop owners will realize that they're losing customers and step in to manage the bad elements before you have to start pricing game tables.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Kilgore19d wrote:
I wasn't personally involved in those cases, it was just happening in my gaming community during 6th edition and I witnessed them. About the last two years of 'Ard Boyz. (I think that was 6th edition)

I should also be one to offer advice: When a local community gets 'toxic' with a bunch of jerks, bullies, crybabies, tryhards, cheaters, and what-have-you... there's a solution. You get together with the good players and start working on making a private gaming club- and you start buying your stuff online and stop shopping at the FLGS. One of two things will happen:

1- You'll create a private gaming club that you can determine who gets to participate, and you'll keep out the scumbags. It'll be a lot more comfortable gaming for everyone involved and you can do great things like have a beer and pretzels game in the garage.

2- Shop owners will realize that they're losing customers and step in to manage the bad elements before you have to start pricing game tables.

That's precisely what happened.

 Kilgore19d wrote:
That's precisely what happened.

That's good. You can't directly control everyone in the gaming community, for sure. You can't have a zero-sum solution to any problem in any place that you aren't in charge of. That's why it's great to have an option for things like a private gaming club. In an area I lived a few years ago, we had to do exactly that. Cheating was a lot less of a problem, and it didn't take long for the bad elements of the community to realize why they were being denied membership and invitations to events.

When your garage on a Tuesday has more people than all four local FLGS on a Saturday- it sends a message.

 Overread wrote:
I've not paid huge attention to the Tournament but yeah from the casual glance at reports from it that I've read it wouldn't shock me if it either folds and is replaced or if they have a huge shake up after this year.

So yes could be that even within a year the ban is null and void - although it wil still have sent a message and be a mark on this players track record at other major tournament events that he won't shrug off easily.

What a pity, too - everybody seems to have written this tournament off due to the reviews despite it being like only 2 years old and coming into being right when 8th edition helped explode the hobby. They clearly weren't prepared for the size, but everybody seems to forget that LVO and Adepticon have been around for like a decade and had the time and (most importantly) the community's patience as they went through their early years. Losing tournaments is not something we should be cheering for, guys. That doesn't grow the hobby - it shrinks it, and with a community so keen on seeing things fail, no matter what it is, then maybe that's what we deserve.

Anyway, back to Cheater McCheaterpants. Whataboutisms are usually the realm of the guilty - so what does it say that he immediately used that defense as his first response?

 niv-mizzet wrote:
@Thud
At the highest levels of the game, you are expected to play tight. Look at track and field for example. They have a hardcore insta-DQ on false starts. You can train 4 years for an Olympic race and get booted for jumping out a millisecond too quick. (Even happened to Usain Bolt in the 2011 world champs!)

Harrison is from the UK, so it's possible that they may have more data points than what they're throwing out, such as past history at other nearby events, but didn't mention it due to lack of video proof. And if they strongly believe that it was malicious cheating behavior, many people would argue that shaming is rather helpful for the community as a whole. Other TO's know to be on the lookout, and other players see an example of what could happen to them if they try to sloppy play their way through a finals game at a huge event.

Three things, though.

There are highest levels of the game, and then there are highest levels of the game. Usain Bolt gets paid to do what he does, and so do others, not just athletes, but support staff as well. 40k is something you do on your spare time because it's more fun than re-watching something on Netflix for the third time. Ironically, the few people who do get paid for playing 40k (the guys on GW's stream and MWG) get stuff wrong all the time.

Getting DQ'ed for a false start is known ahead of time, agreed upon by all, and fairly straight-forward.

And most importantly, no one's saying Usain Bolt is what's wrong with track and field because he had a false start. If anything he'd get sympathy.


Whether or not many people argue that shaming is helpful to combat unwanted behaviour is on them. I'm not a fan. If he cheated (as I said; haven't watched the video), then sure, dock his points, DQ him, ban him for life, whatever. But this public dirty laundry business is not something I can see as positive for any community. Especially since it devolves into nitpicking around minor issues just to build the case further. That sets a pretty terrible precedent.

 Thud wrote:
. But this public dirty laundry business is not something I can see as positive for any community. Especially since it devolves into nitpicking around minor issues just to build the case further. That sets a pretty terrible precedent.

I disagree, respectfully, because there is some merit to the 'public shaming'. It is not punishment for him. His punishment is the ban. Granted, because he is banned for cheating there will be social repercussions to that. BUT:

1- 'Airing dirty laundry' is a way to make it clear why someone was banned. If a ban was discrete and private, it can quickly become a 'he said, she said' thing. He could be silently banned for cheating, and then what is stopping him from publicly claiming he was banned for something unjustly? He could easily lie, and this public statement makes it clear that the LGT banned him for a legitimate reason.

2- If there is at least one person out there cheating, and they see this public humiliation and say, "I can't deal with that embarrassment, I better play clean" then the system has worked.

I look at this public shaming as the event informing other players and TOs about this player's behavior. It lets everyone know what they've done and why. Whether you agree that he was cheating or not is another matter. The TO felt that he was and took an action he thought was appropriate.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
2- If there is at least one person out there cheating, and they see this public humiliation and say, "I can't deal with that embarrassment, I better play clean" then the system has worked.

Exactly. Public shaming, as long as it is done accurately and not as a witch hunt against someone who was innocent, demonstrates that if you cheat you risk a lot more than being DQed from one particular event that hardly anyone will ever hear about. Your name will be all over the internet, every forum will be talking about you, and you will be permanently blacklisted from ever participating in anything more than a local pickup game against a newbie who doesn't know who you are yet. The worst thing we can do with cheaters is enable their anonymity and let them know that the price of cheating is light and temporary.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
2- If there is at least one person out there cheating, and they see this public humiliation and say, "I can't deal with that embarrassment, I better play clean" then the system has worked.

Exactly. Public shaming, as long as it is done accurately and not as a witch hunt against someone who was innocent, demonstrates that if you cheat you risk a lot more than being DQed from one particular event that hardly anyone will ever hear about. Your name will be all over the internet, every forum will be talking about you, and you will be permanently blacklisted from ever participating in anything more than a local pickup game against a newbie who doesn't know who you are yet. The worst thing we can do with cheaters is enable their anonymity and let them know that the price of cheating is light and temporary.

Agreed. They tried the softly-softly approach with him and he didn't change his ways.

Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.

A lifetime ban is overkill for a hobby. Ban him from next year’s event, that would be fair. A lifetime ban mean no revenue from that guy, no revenue from his associates, and no revenue from those that disagree with the ruling. No revenue is kind of counter productive given the need to recoup loses for paying for the venue and any advertising. And that’s if he actually cheated. I’m still not convinced, it just looks like bad games by habits to me. He should be ashamed of that, but people with bad habits tend to not be shameful of those habits, which is why a lifetime ban maybe counterproductive.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime.

They do a pretty good job of keeping them from committing more crime against the general public, though. Dude's locked up, not going to be robbing houses. Dude 6 feet under causes zer problems for anyone.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime.

They do a pretty good job of keeping them from committing more crime against the general public, though. Dude's locked up, not going to be robbing houses. Dude 6 feet under causes zer problems for anyone.

Dude locked up can’t provide for his family while costing taxpayers, and creates another generation of criminals due to their needing to survive without resources. Dude 6’ under wasted taxpayers money and can no longer pay taxes.

Prisons don’t fix anything. Better social programs and a more robust economy fixes crime rates.

SJ

Especially if you consider it's actually pretty damn expensive for the state to legally kill another person. As well as final.

Even the little bit of law I studied in high school, there's a good number of innocent people wrongfully convicted of crimes. If those people were executed, then essentially the state murders and innocent man.

It sends a message with deters some of those from cheating behaviour, but not all.

It sends a message that if you cheat you will be punished when caught, thus it shows that there is accountability for behaviour at the event.

That tells people going that should the worst happen, ergo a cheater, then the organisers are willing to take action. This makes normal attending people feel safer because even if they find a cheater there is a feeling that the cheater will be punished (not just wrist slapped or ignored).

It also starts to set a tone of behaviour that the gamer social group at the event wants to achieve.

Can he still play in ETC? Can he still play in the Caldonenian? Can he still play in Warhammer GT?

My guess is LGT will fold - is obvious they are strictly amateur now.

It might be justified, but it was handled poorly. It feels reactionary to an ongoing problem that has been allowed to fester too long, when you go, oops that guy cheated, oops this guy cheated, wow that guy cheated too, THAT'S IT, THIS GUY IS BANNED FOR LIFE!

The reason every single game company besides GW puts out a tournament packet with some pretty lax standards for basic human behavior as rules isn't really to prevent cheating. The rules of the game are already rules that prevent cheating. What event packets really provide is a backing for TOs to react to problems and something that helps give a social backing when they need to take action.

Ultimately, this shows more of a need for tournament standardization, code of conduct and the like than anything. I think action was merited but a year ban would have been far less controversial and largely sent the same message.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.

A lifetime ban is overkill for a hobby. Ban him from next year’s event, that would be fair. A lifetime ban mean no revenue from that guy, no revenue from his associates, and no revenue from those that disagree with the ruling. No revenue is kind of counter productive given the need to recoup loses for paying for the venue and any advertising. And that’s if he actually cheated. I’m still not convinced, it just looks like bad games by habits to me. He should be ashamed of that, but people with bad habits tend to not be shameful of those habits, which is why a lifetime ban maybe counterproductive.

SJ

Tournaments don't care about losing 1 guy, esp big ones that sell out regardless.
The I am willing to bet the lost revenue from his friends who stop showing up (if any do at all) doesn't weight up to the potential extra revenue from people who stay away from tournaments now because they are full of cheaters that never get punished (in their eyes, regardless of the validity of such a claim).

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Public shaming does not act as a deterrent, the people that get away with whatever they get away with have a habit of always trying the get away with it regardless of consequences because it’s a habit they find beneficial. That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime. The people that shaming works on already have habits that avoid potential shaming, just like most people avoid criminal activity because they don’t want to get caught.

A lifetime ban is overkill for a hobby. Ban him from next year’s event, that would be fair. A lifetime ban mean no revenue from that guy, no revenue from his associates, and no revenue from those that disagree with the ruling. No revenue is kind of counter productive given the need to recoup loses for paying for the venue and any advertising. And that’s if he actually cheated. I’m still not convinced, it just looks like bad games by habits to me. He should be ashamed of that, but people with bad habits tend to not be shameful of those habits, which is why a lifetime ban maybe counterproductive.

SJ

You don't ban or punish people because you want that person to stop doing it. You ban them to ensure that other people don't feel cheated playing agaisnt that kind of person. You ban them because it is fair for the community.
Is like dopping in sports. If you allow it, you end in a point where the clean athletes ask themselves "Why shouldn't I do it too?"

 Galas wrote:
You don't ban or punish people because you want that person to stop doing it. You ban them to ensure that other people don't feel cheated playing agaisnt that kind of person. You ban them because it is fair for the community. Is like dopping in sports. If you allow it, you end in a point where the clean athletes ask themselves "Why shouldn't I do it too?"

There's a good documentary (Icarus) on the whole doping scandal with the Russians.

As much as people want to scoff at people cheating at Warhammer and calling it a bad tournament style game they should look at how pervasive cheating is in sports. It's absolutely rife. Even with figures like Lance Armstrong being caught and punished it still happens.

It will always happen.

Of course it will always happen. Thats why this is a ongoing "battle". Theres no point where theres no more cheaters.

 Galas wrote:
Of course it will always happen. Thats why this is a ongoing "battle". Theres no point where theres no more cheaters.

Right I was just supporting your statement.

it may well be people cheating will "always happen", however when its seen to have no repercussions it rapidly will become the "accepted normal way to play" and the spiral goes down.

you either come down hard or you don't bother.

I've played in events that had people cheating (illegal lists mostly), with a TO who was basically "well its too late to do anything now". Have also played at events where there were requirements in the pack (limits on unit size, requirements to be assembled and painted) that were not enforced.

both drag the quality of the event down.

Have also played at events where people trying to be "cute" get told to stop it, and listen, because they know the organisers will either dock them points or DQ them

gungo wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.

That was my thought as well. Follow it up with the dice change and it makes the rest of the issues just that much more obvious what he was doing. Tired or not, that was some of the worst behavior I have seen in a streamed game.

IMO the ban is deserved. Wish they would do the same in some of the events here in the US.

It's the right thing to do.

This game requires good faith to play.

If they ban people for slowplaying then there wouldn't be this discussion about chess clocks.

 silashand wrote:

gungo wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can view those video clips and not see some blatant shady moves. The water bottle one in particular was like super secret ninja move crazy shady it’s not even a legit bump or anything it’s like I see your distracted so let me push this bottle with enough pressure to move this massive model cheating.

That was my thought as well. Follow it up with the dice change and it makes the rest of the issues just that much more obvious what he was doing. Tired or not, that was some of the worst behavior I have seen in a streamed game.

IMO the ban is deserved. Wish they would do the same in some of the events here in the US.

The water bottle isn't clearly cheating to me... Now let me preference that it might have been. The reason why it doesn't seem blatant to me is because of the overhead view. Things always look obvious or weird when viewed from an odd way like that. When they would review video back when i played college/pro hockey there would be goals or offsides that you would think were terrible calls until you saw the overhead view for yourself.

Once again he might have been using it to cheat but
1. I just don't see the motive for nudging it and what he would have gained from it (he pointed this out in his post). If your going to cheat it's usually blatantly obvious what you're attempting to do
2. Nobody watching the game said anything at the time. My guess is if it looked odd at normal eye level people would have immediately called him out.

Once again if he was cheating I fully support bans/punishment. That being said i think you should either catch someone in the act or have rock solid proof and to me this is a little too much of a grey area and could go either way (I also have never met/ played him so I have no previous notions about him to make me lean one way or the other)

Some variance on all of the actions this guy made are things I have seen on multiple occasions in Warhammer tournaments, and in every case I have seen a similar action taken that I felt was likely on accident and another that was bordering on cheating.

No one knows the rules to a GW game as well as they think they do. No matter how good, I have never encountered a player who did not make mistakes, and occasionally misread a rule in a tourney. I have known plenty of guys who played a little fast or lose, and occasionally did something a little shady, though I would never label them straight up cheaters, or suggest banning them. Only 2 players have I ever seen straight up deserve the type of treatment this guy is getting here, and both did more obvious and egregious things on a constant basis (and neither got called out like this, ever). At the end of the day this is just a game, and I would even hesitate to do to the 2 aforementioned players what these tourney organizers did to this fellow for much less. I feel bad for him. Fine Ban the guy, but making such public declarations on debatable evidence, from post game second guessing over a video? Come on.

I love how so many in the online community hold up top wargaming players as if they are professional athletes. They are not. No one is payed for this (and if you think prize money counts you are hilarious, even first place isn't going to pay for much more then your weekend's expenses (if that) if you are an out of towner). Furthermore even those that play constantly get rules wrong. GW sucks at writing rules, they are a mess, and especially if you are a top player you are likely constantly changing armies. Who hasn't fumbled a model, or misplayed a rule for months before realizing it? I was a competitive player in fantasy for years, and I am telling you great sportsman and cheaters alike have made the mistakes listed in this thread. I think a few of the things this guy did looked shady on camera and a few looked completely innocent, but I see very little clear evidence of intentional cheating that goes beyond anything you see in almost every match in a normal tourney. This is not a clean game, this is not a professional game, and no one should be crucified like this unless they are bringing weighted dice or moving models while their opponents backs are turned (seen the latter, not the former). Nudging a model half an inch with a waterbottel? Come on now. Misplaying a rule that is know to be frequently misplayed? Counters getting misplaced and replaced incorrectly (this one is a constant)? Come on guys. Spare me the high and mighty routine. Even competitive wargaming is more casual then almost every other use of the word competitive. This is just a bunch of harassed and desperate tourney organizers trying their best to rectify reputations after a terrible event. I completely understand it, but it doesn't make it okay.

Based on what others have said this person has been complained about at other events and, I presume, warned about his behavior. How many warnings do you get before you get punished? A lifetime ban is stupid on a lot of levels but at least the TOs made the effort to show that cheating is unacceptable and has repercusions.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That’s why prisons and executions have never been a deterrent towards crime.

They do a pretty good job of keeping them from committing more crime against the general public, though. Dude's locked up, not going to be robbing houses. Dude 6 feet under causes zer problems for anyone.

Dude locked up can’t provide for his family while costing taxpayers, and creates another generation of criminals due to their needing to survive without resources. Dude 6’ under wasted taxpayers money and can no longer pay taxes.

Prisons don’t fix anything. Better social programs and a more robust economy fixes crime rates.

SJ

Taxes aren't what is the most important. Ok, let's apply you logic; you free your criminals. Now they are killing, raping etc... Less taxes because lots people died/were injured by your criminals, taxes spended on taking care of the poor people robbed etc..
Oh, and when you put someone in jail, it doesn't make his family become criminals. First thing first, he has to have one family, and then, the other adult can work, too,
See ? Everyone can say anything, it won't be right for all that.

And if economy and social programs fixed anything, criminality would be over in The West
Social program don't fixe anything, they waste taxpayer money. Because opening a library or a music school won't make a raper a good guy, and you know it.

And about the gaming community: again, you seem to be obsessed with money ? Who cares about the fact he won't buy his place next year ? One place, even ten, don't matter. So, because he has money we should allow him to come back and keep cheating, really ? If we could lifeban all the cheaters, it would be perfect and would greatly help the community. But you know what ? I think banning just half of them would make the other half afraid enough to make them stop cheating.