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I really enjoyed the «I am a top player in an international event but I have never ever practiced or read my codex» part
I am totally convinced

 Arachnofiend wrote:
What a sad world we live in if it's true that everyone at the top tables gets there by cheating.

Perhaps not outright cheating, but things like: bumping models, mismeasuring distances, moving too far (all of these either intentionally or accidentally)? Happens ALL of the time in 40k, I'd be genuinely surprised if you couldn't find things like that in at least 20-30% of games, even at top tier.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
What a sad world we live in if it's true that everyone at the top tables gets there by cheating.

Not everyone. But a lot certainly do.

 jhe90 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 godardc wrote:
At last, all the cheaters that are shaming our community will be banned, and the rest will be afraid of doing it again.
Tomorrow, «competitive» 40k will be better.
Eventually, this LGT proved useful !

Heck, my Dakka experience is getting better by being able to Ignore all of the cheaters and apologists. It's a great thread!

Not a apologist just understand mistakes happen. Not every mid read rule, nudge or forgetful action is a direct cheat.

Its not like everyone knows there rules cover to cover perfectly, and can and do make the odd mistakes, especially at end of a day.

I've been top table at the end of an event, and I made a few mistakes. Yes, it was the end of the day, and yes, I was tired. The difference is that I corrected every mistake to the best of my ability, and the net result was that I lost the game, along with the shot at best overall. But that was the fair thing to do. I wasn't 100% on top of my game, and I deserved to lose.

In the case of a cheat, those "mistakes" will create a pattern that is consistently (but not necessarily always) in their favor, in order to win. They won't apologize for the mistake, and they won't be generous in correcting it; they'll typically say "Oh, let's move on, OK?" to carry the advantage forward. Unless they catch the opponent making a mistake, in which case, they'll typically want immediate redress. What someone says afterward is basically meaningless, because cheaters lie about cheating.

It's a key distinction to understand, between the occasional minor error, and an obviously blatant cheating.

 Big Mac wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion.

what's the first rule of getting caught cheating? deny, deny , look at lance Armstrong, marion jones, bill Clinton, if you profuse it is not true, then it isn't true. He now wants an apology from the TO for slandering his 'good' name, when the evidence say otherwise. imo he needs to shut up and practice at being a better opponent, I don't mean table top tactical, but curbing his fast and loose playing style.


First, how about getting himself a set or two of matching dices, instead of the jumbo bunch, clearly he can afford such from his winnings, this will immensely help any 'accidental' pick up of opponent's wound counter when he rolls his dice nearby. rolling dice in plain view of the opponent, tell them what he needs for success/failure.


I call BS on his response of not having any practice game before the tourney with tau, the codex has been out for a few months, i don't believe any tournament player who enters without a practice game, that's just my opinion. misreading rules i can understand, as i believe everyone does at some point, plus some GW rules are ambiguous.

Actually, no, i had 0 practice. I can pick an army and play it but clearly not this one lol. I won the LVO with an army I played once before it and never played ITC before in my life.

As for the Dice, Ive been collecting different dice from different players at the ETC where we swap dice to one another. Lost my set a while back but building it back up, its just a small tradition




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


I've been top table at the end of an event, and I made a few mistakes. Yes, it was the end of the day, and yes, I was tired. The difference is that I corrected every mistake to the best of my ability, and the net result was that I lost the game, along with the shot at best overall. But that was the fair thing to do. I wasn't 100% on top of my game, and I deserved to lose.

In the case of a cheat, those "mistakes" will create a pattern that is consistently (but not necessarily always) in their favor, in order to win. They won't apologize for the mistake, and they won't be generous in correcting it; they'll typically say "Oh, let's move on, OK?" to carry the advantage forward. Unless they catch the opponent making a mistake, in which case, they'll typically want immediate redress. What someone says afterward is basically meaningless, because cheaters lie about cheating.

It's a key distinction to understand, between the occasional minor error, and an obviously blatant cheating.

Except, they dont give me an advantage? The knock of the hammerhead litterally gives no beenfit. Geoff never attempted to shoot that hammerhead and if he did it wouldn't make a blind duifference, 12 bolter shots doesn't kill a hammerhead. I was already ontop of the objective. I cant overwatch it, Im not near another objective. Literally no benefit to forcefully nudging the model.

Second marker hit, literaly 0 advantage made. Why would I cheat on live stream infront of hundreds for no gain whatsoever? If I was going to subtly cheat, don't you think I would have tried for some advantage at least? What do I gain apart from humiliation and potential DQ?

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Oh no, it was quality innuendo.

And you say hostility, I say disagree with their argument methods, the basis of their argument, and the way they try to wiggle their way out of responsibility for the position they took, while still trying to support it.

Let me ask you again, do you think Geoff should be banned, considering he made some "mistakes" during play as well. You can watch the video and clearly see.

Do you think everyone else who makes such mistakes should be banned too?

When does a genuinely innocent mistake turn into an intentional act of cheating? As you can plainly see by this thread it is very hard to tell. Banning everyone who makes "mistakes" like this on the off chance they were doing it intentionally means a large chunk of the community (including myself, and probably you too) would be lifetime banned from competitive play.

I remember Geoff correcting his mistakes. But then, I watched the video.

Primark G wrote:I can't wait to hear what all the haters have to say now.

On the note of haters, what do you have to say now?

SHUPPET wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

Oh lord. They're going to try and hand out more bans. That seems like the worst thing to do right now...

Doubt it, they are just putting on a stern face, nothing more will come out of it no matter what they find after watching all footage

We'll have to see. There could be a return to business as usual, or it could be a start of actually showing meaningful enforcement of the rules.

Arachnofiend wrote:What a sad world we live in if it's true that everyone at the top tables gets there by cheating.

w1zard wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
What a sad world we live in if it's true that everyone at the top tables gets there by cheating.

Perhaps not outright cheating, but things like: bumping models, mismeasuring distances, moving too far (both intentionally or accidentally)? Happens ALL of the time in 40k, I'd be genuinely surprised if you couldn't find things like that in at least 20-30% of games, even at top tier.

Evidence please? Nothing anecdotal. I'm sure you have proof of all this cheating. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you'll understand, after 12 pages of reading your responses, that I'd want something to back up your words.

Also, everything you just described, if done intentionally is cheating. No more, no less.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Evidence please? Nothing anecdotal. I'm sure you have proof of all this cheating. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you'll understand, after 12 pages of reading your responses, that I'd want something to back up your words.

If you seriously don't think that forgetting rules, accidentally bumping models, forgetting to discard cards, or other such minor mistakes don't happen in about every single game of 40k, you are either a liar, delusional, or you straight up don't play. Either way, arguing with you over that is a waste of my time. I don't need to prove the sky is blue because everyone can look up and see it.

 Big Mac wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion.

what's the first rule of getting caught cheating? deny, deny , look at lance Armstrong, marion jones, bill Clinton, if you profuse it is not true, then it isn't true. He now wants an apology from the TO for slandering his 'good' name, when the evidence say otherwise. imo he needs to shut up and practice at being a better opponent, I don't mean table top tactical, but curbing his fast and loose playing style.


First, how about getting himself a set or two of matching dices, instead of the jumbo bunch, clearly he can afford such from his winnings, this will immensely help any 'accidental' pick up of opponent's wound counter when he rolls his dice nearby. rolling dice in plain view of the opponent, tell them what he needs for success/failure.


I call BS on his response of not having any practice game before the tourney with tau, the codex has been out for a few months, i don't believe any tournament player who enters without a practice game, that's just my opinion. misreading rules i can understand, as i believe everyone does at some point, plus some GW rules are ambiguous.

the tourney itself could have better terrain, our local shop has better, I don't know how they could have mess that up. I feel sorry for players attending the event that has to travel from overseas.

Sorry I have to call BS on this hate crime post. That is what it is too.

 godardc wrote:
At last, all the cheaters that are shaming our community will be banned, and the rest will be afraid of doing it again.
Tomorrow, «competitive» 40k will be better.
Eventually, this LGT proved useful !

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Evidence please? Nothing anecdotal. I'm sure you have proof of all this cheating. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you'll understand, after 12 pages of reading your responses, that I'd want something to back up your words.

If you seriously don't think that forgetting rules, accidentally bumping models, forgetting to discard cards, or other such minor mistakes don't happen in about every single game of 40k, you are either a liar, delusional, or you straight up don't play. Either way, arguing with you over that is a waste of my time. I don't need to prove the sky is blue because everyone can look up and see it.

Its not simple like chess!

As above. Mistakes will happen. Its too complicated and so for it not to. And in deference to a quote above. Yes. Cheating is deliberate and not conceding advantage deliberately.

But its not always easy to tell those apart.

Since when is the guilty party denying wrongdoing considered worthwhile evidence? Mr. Harrison isn’t saying anything his supporters haven’t been saying, but now that he says it we can all rest easy? Literally the only thing he has added to the discussion is 1) an apologetic text from the TO and 2) am excuse for why he misplayed a rule. Neither of these contradict the video evidence, not have we seen a lifting of the ban on him (unless I missed something).
“I was tired”, “I didn’t study” and “I was sloppy” are all standard excuses for poor behavior and academic cheating (I managed an honor program when I was in college), so if he was cheating, it doesn’t surprise me that is his defense. It’s also possible that all of those were true and a bunch of innocent mistakes were made. However, I still find that extremely unlikely based on everything else that was presented. So the accused’s joining of the conversation changes nothing.

 jhe90 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Evidence please? Nothing anecdotal. I'm sure you have proof of all this cheating. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you'll understand, after 12 pages of reading your responses, that I'd want something to back up your words.

If you seriously don't think that forgetting rules, accidentally bumping models, forgetting to discard cards, or other such minor mistakes don't happen in about every single game of 40k, you are either a liar, delusional, or you straight up don't play. Either way, arguing with you over that is a waste of my time. I don't need to prove the sky is blue because everyone can look up and see it.

Its not simple like chess!

As above. Mistakes will happen. Its too complicated and so for it not to. And in deference to a quote above. Yes. Cheating is deliberate and not conceding advantage deliberately.

But its not always easy to tell those apart.

w1zard. You made an assertions that massive numbers of players in major tournaments cheat. That's NOT the same as an occasional mis-measure, or bumping a model. I'm still waiting for your evidence that 25-33% of players purposely break the rules. As for mistakes happening, I mentioned that it happens. You quoted me saying it. If you're going to try and strawman me, you might not want to include my argument that foils the attempt in the attempt itself. At this point if you told me the sky is blue, I'm pretty sure I'd take the time to check before I believed you. Then I'd take a minute or two to figure out what your angle was before I gave a response. As for it being a waste of your time, yes. You said you don't have a horse in this race. (exact quote) So technically none of these pages of arguments are a valuable use of your time.

jhe: It's not easy, but when it is discovered, like in this case, you make an example of them, because it can be so hard to find them sometimes. That way other cheaters and people considering cheating know the risks of breaking the rules. We're not taking Vegas back-room here, but a stern and public "You're not welcome here" is perfectly fine.

Totally understandable mate. If I am to be branded as a cheat by the masses there is little I can say or do. I appreciate it may sound like "excuses" but as somone who deals with guilty parties, there is always 2 sides of a story and I just wanted to get my point out there. As Ive said I put my hands up to the FTGG ability and I miss-played it which we rectified and went back on./ However I categorically think the rest of the claims are just jabs at me from someone analysing a game of 40k between 2 players to pick out anything that may brand me a cheat. Ive put my points accross to each point made and ultimately, I lost the game, my opponent had a good game and had no grievance with the game, no one was hurt, I left the game hungry, almost fell asleep and even managed to get a slap on the back of the head for losing to a yank. But here I am defending for my life before the internet burns me on the stake haha Oh well it's all fund and games untill the games end up trying to set you alight

 greyknight12 wrote:
Since when is the guilty party denying wrongdoing considered worthwhile evidence? Mr. Harrison isn’t saying anything his supporters haven’t been saying, but now that he says it we can all rest easy? Literally the only thing he has added to the discussion is 1) an apologetic text from the TO and 2) am excuse for why he misplayed a rule. Neither of these contradict the video evidence, not have we seen a lifting of the ban on him (unless I missed something).
“I was tired”, “I didn’t study” and “I was sloppy” are all standard excuses for poor behavior and academic cheating (I managed an honor program when I was in college), so if he was cheating, it doesn’t surprise me that is his defense. It’s also possible that all of those were true and a bunch of innocent mistakes were made. However, I still find that extremely unlikely based on everything else that was presented. So the accused’s joining of the conversation changes nothing.

I still think that people saying that the video show him 100% intentionally cheating are full of it. Could he have possibly been intentionally cheating? Sure, I am not denying that possibility. But he would be stupid to do it on camera in front of hundreds of people for no obvious advantage. With that in mind, I think a lifetime ban is too harsh a punishment. A DQ and loss of points would be sufficient to guarantee that he did not benefit from cheating if what he did do was intentional, while at the same time ensuring that his reputation and career are not unduly damaged if his actions were indeed genuinely mistakes.

The people calling for blood seem to want to use Mr. Harrison as an example to "clean the community up", ignoring the fact that using harsh examples offers little real deterrence to actual cheating, and don't seem to care about the unfairness toward the offender, claiming they have "0 sympathy" for cheaters.

If I could use an analogy to your life experiences, it would be like catching a student rifling around in a backpack during a test. He claims he was only searching for a pencil, but you find notes in a compartment, which he explains by saying that he was cramming for the test immediately before it began, and shoved them there as the test was being distributed. I would advocate giving this student a 0 on the test, but some people think that kicking him out of the entire school is warranted to serve as an example to other cheaters, regardless of truth behind his innocence or guilt.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Since when is the guilty party denying wrongdoing considered worthwhile evidence? Mr. Harrison isn’t saying anything his supporters haven’t been saying, but now that he says it we can all rest easy? Literally the only thing he has added to the discussion is 1) an apologetic text from the TO and 2) am excuse for why he misplayed a rule. Neither of these contradict the video evidence, not have we seen a lifting of the ban on him (unless I missed something).
“I was tired”, “I didn’t study” and “I was sloppy” are all standard excuses for poor behavior and academic cheating (I managed an honor program when I was in college), so if he was cheating, it doesn’t surprise me that is his defense. It’s also possible that all of those were true and a bunch of innocent mistakes were made. However, I still find that extremely unlikely based on everything else that was presented. So the accused’s joining of the conversation changes nothing.

I have no position in this snafu.

I can tell you I've accidentally told someone Magnus was AP3 D4 instead of AP4 D3. Or that I'm so accustomed to 24" spells that I've mismeasured an 18" to 24". I've also forgotten if I've used command rerolls at times.

I've taken steps to avoid these things and they're not like some other mistakes, but I can say that things do sometimes happen innocently. And my screw ups on camera would totally look like cheating.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
What a sad world we live in if it's true that everyone at the top tables gets there by cheating.

I don't think they do. Geoff is one of the most honest and straight up guys you will ever meet, full of integrity. He made the same if not more mistakes than Alex did that game. I think it's more likely that people are just being far to harsh on what is defined as cheating.

If what Alex Harrison did counts as cheating - then yes, probably +90% of games at every level involve multiple instances of "cheating".

 KillswitchUK wrote:
Totally understandable mate. If I am to be branded as a cheat by the masses there is little I can say or do. I appreciate it may sound like "excuses" but as somone who deals with guilty parties, there is always 2 sides of a story and I just wanted to get my point out there. As Ive said I put my hands up to the FTGG ability and I miss-played it which we rectified and went back on./ However I categorically think the rest of the claims are just jabs at me from someone analysing a game of 40k between 2 players to pick out anything that may brand me a cheat. Ive put my points accross to each point made and ultimately, I lost the game, my opponent had a good game and had no grievance with the game, no one was hurt, I left the game hungry, almost fell asleep and even managed to get a slap on the back of the head for losing to a yank. But here I am defending for my life before the internet burns me on the stake haha Oh well it's all fund and games untill the games end up trying to set you alight

You said what you can, people still harassing you at this point are just looking for someone to tear down to make themselves feel better.

Get a statement from Geoff on the matter imo.

 Mmmpi wrote:

w1zard. You made an assertions that massive numbers of players in major tournaments cheat.... I'm still waiting for your evidence that 25-33% of players purposely break the rules.

I never said that. But if your definition of "cheating" is accidentally bumping a model, accidentally mismeasuring a distance, accidentally picking up a wound counter, or accidentally forgetting/misapplying a rule, then you would be stupid to think that "cheating" doesn't happen in 20-30% of games at the very least. Remember, I'm still not convinced that what Mr. Harrison did was intentional.

 Mmmpi wrote:

jhe: It's not easy, but when it is discovered, like in this case, you make an example of them, because it can be so hard to find them sometimes. That way other cheaters and people considering cheating know the risks of breaking the rules. We're not taking Vegas back-room here, but a stern and public "You're not welcome here" is perfectly fine.

That's not how "examples" work. Do you think publicly hanging a shoplifter will convince people to stop comitting crimes? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you in Florida. All this is going to do is make the people who intentionally cheat be more careful about doing so, and push the legitimate players who do make honest mistakes like this off the tournament circuit due to fear.

The conclusion I have drawn from this is that not many people cheats (Haha who are we kidding, cheating is the lifeblood of warhammer tournaments)... but that a top-level player is gonna be held to the same standard as a noob playing a casual pick up game in his FLGS. It doesn't matter how many mistakes they make, its all rugged off.

Thats good to ear. That means we can stop pretending competitive warhammer is anything more than a joke and that competitive players have more knowledge of the game than anybody else that has read various codex and has mid of the road experience with them.

 Galas wrote:
The conclusion I have drawn from this is that not many people cheats (Haha who are we kidding, cheating is the lifeblood of warhammer tournaments)... but that a top-level player is gonna be held to the same standard as a noob playing a casual pick up game in his FLGS. It doesn't matter how many mistakes they make, its all rugged off.

His opponent made just as many "mistakes" as he did and yet is not getting lifetime banned.

w1zard wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The conclusion I have drawn from this is that not many people cheats (Haha who are we kidding, cheating is the lifeblood of warhammer tournaments)... but that a top-level player is gonna be held to the same standard as a noob playing a casual pick up game in his FLGS. It doesn't matter how many mistakes they make, its all rugged off.

His opponent made just as many "mistakes" as he did and yet is not getting lifetime banned.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. If the top tables of one of the biggest tournaments of the world get a free pass on making so many mistakes, then competitive warhammer is nothing more than a joke. A sad one, because many people don't realise it is one.

 KillswitchUK wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion.

what's the first rule of getting caught cheating? deny, deny , look at lance Armstrong, marion jones, bill Clinton, if you profuse it is not true, then it isn't true. He now wants an apology from the TO for slandering his 'good' name, when the evidence say otherwise. imo he needs to shut up and practice at being a better opponent, I don't mean table top tactical, but curbing his fast and loose playing style.


First, how about getting himself a set or two of matching dices, instead of the jumbo bunch, clearly he can afford such from his winnings, this will immensely help any 'accidental' pick up of opponent's wound counter when he rolls his dice nearby. rolling dice in plain view of the opponent, tell them what he needs for success/failure.


I call BS on his response of not having any practice game before the tourney with tau, the codex has been out for a few months, i don't believe any tournament player who enters without a practice game, that's just my opinion. misreading rules i can understand, as i believe everyone does at some point, plus some GW rules are ambiguous.

Actually, no, i had 0 practice. I can pick an army and play it but clearly not this one lol. I won the LVO with an army I played once before it and never played ITC before in my life.

As for the Dice, Ive been collecting different dice from different players at the ETC where we swap dice to one another. Lost my set a while back but building it back up, its just a small tradition




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


I've been top table at the end of an event, and I made a few mistakes. Yes, it was the end of the day, and yes, I was tired. The difference is that I corrected every mistake to the best of my ability, and the net result was that I lost the game, along with the shot at best overall. But that was the fair thing to do. I wasn't 100% on top of my game, and I deserved to lose.

In the case of a cheat, those "mistakes" will create a pattern that is consistently (but not necessarily always) in their favor, in order to win. They won't apologize for the mistake, and they won't be generous in correcting it; they'll typically say "Oh, let's move on, OK?" to carry the advantage forward. Unless they catch the opponent making a mistake, in which case, they'll typically want immediate redress. What someone says afterward is basically meaningless, because cheaters lie about cheating.

It's a key distinction to understand, between the occasional minor error, and an obviously blatant cheating.

Except, they dont give me an advantage? The knock of the hammerhead litterally gives no beenfit. Geoff never attempted to shoot that hammerhead and if he did it wouldn't make a blind duifference, 12 bolter shots doesn't kill a hammerhead. I was already ontop of the objective. I cant overwatch it, Im not near another objective. Literally no benefit to forcefully nudging the model.

Second marker hit, literaly 0 advantage made. Why would I cheat on live stream infront of hundreds for no gain whatsoever? If I was going to subtly cheat, don't you think I would have tried for some advantage at least? What do I gain apart from humiliation and potential DQ?

So, why bump it then? Probably should start doing these things when it actually helps.

 Galas wrote:


Thats exactly what I'm saying. If the top tables of one of the biggest tournaments of the world get a free pass on making so many mistakes, then competitive warhammer is nothing more than a joke. A sad one, because many people don't realise it is one.

I disagree. Warhammer is hard. Especially on a time crunch. I've forgotten to deepstrike 10 terminators until turn 3. I've missed timings for stratagems. There's a huge array of interactions that can trip you up.

Here is a fun one:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=01h31m00s

Into -

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=01h31m51s


Geoff - "He is going to declare . . . So sorry, it is confusing, what is over here is that two units?"
Alex - " Yeah there is a unit of pathfinders and a unit of . . . firewarriors."
Geoff - "He is going to declare both of those."
Alex - "Ok, so . . . uh, I'll just shoot with . . . *long pause* . . . just the front unit."
Geoff - "Just the firewarriors?"
Alex - *quietly* "Yep"

*Overwatch shots* *Geoff measures and starts moving his model to charge*

Geoff - "These are the pathfinders?"
Alex - "Yeah, you didn't declare them"
Geoff - "I did actually"
Alex - "Ah, ok..."

 KillswitchUK wrote:


Actually, no, i had 0 practice. I can pick an army and play it but clearly not this one lol.

I seem to recall you literally saying in the game vs. Geoff that you had practice games. I think you were evening throwing a mate under the bus and saying something like "when I played ____ in our practice game, he said it had 6 wounds, not 7." I don't remember what it was in relation to, maybe it was a captain or a custodes character or something?

hirojlance wrote:
Here is a fun one:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=01h31m00s

Into -

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=01h31m51s


Geoff - "He is going to declare . . . So sorry, it is confusing, what is over here is that two units?"
Alex - " Yeah there is a unit of pathfinders and a unit of . . . firewarriors."
Geoff - "He is going to declare both of those."
Alex - "Ok, so . . . uh, I'll just shoot with . . . *long pause* . . . just the front unit."
Geoff - "Just the firewarriors?"
Alex - *quietly* "Yep"

*Overwatch shots* *Geoff measures and starts moving his model to charge*

Geoff - "These are the pathfinders?"
Alex - "Yeah, you didn't declare them"
Geoff - "I did actually"
Alex - "Ah, ok..."

Are you trying to say that's cheating? That's like definitive tired behavior. There was zero chance of trying to sell that if he's was just lying, that would be the dumbest attempt at cheat by I've ever heard, and he didn't push it at all. I'm convinced some of you have never actually competed in a tournament. After pushing around the same models all day it all starts to blur together, especially when the finish line is in sight. Even more so if you haven't eaten.

Even the over zealous T.O.s peeling through his matches didn't find that to be cheating. You guys are really reaching hard to try crap on him here lol



EDIT: or are you just saying that he was clearly having tired interactions? If so that post makes a bit more sense. Even the conversation itself was weary.

 SHUPPET wrote:

hirojlance wrote:
Here is a fun one:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=01h31m00s

Into -

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/263217667?t=01h31m51s


Geoff - "He is going to declare . . . So sorry, it is confusing, what is over here is that two units?"
Alex - " Yeah there is a unit of pathfinders and a unit of . . . firewarriors."
Geoff - "He is going to declare both of those."
Alex - "Ok, so . . . uh, I'll just shoot with . . . *long pause* . . . just the front unit."
Geoff - "Just the firewarriors?"
Alex - *quietly* "Yep"

*Overwatch shots* *Geoff measures and starts moving his model to charge*

Geoff - "These are the pathfinders?"
Alex - "Yeah, you didn't declare them"
Geoff - "I did actually"
Alex - "Ah, ok..."

Are you trying to say that's cheating? That's like definitive tired behavior. There was zero chance of trying to sell that if he's was just lying, that would be the dumbest attempt at cheat by I've ever heard, and he didn't push it at all. I'm convinced some of you have never actually competed in a tournament. After pushing around the same models all day it all starts to blur together, especially when the finish line is in sight. Even more so if you haven't eaten.

Even the over zealous T.O.s peeling through his matches didn't find that to be cheating. You guys are really reaching hard to try crap on him here lol



EDIT: or are you just saying that he was clearly having tired interactions? If so that post makes a bit more sense. Even the conversation itself was weary.

It's not my job to make sure they're keeping their bellies full and be hydrated.


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 Primark G wrote:
This is the thread for totally anon loser internet try hards like John Wang to lash out versus seriously good players. They will never ever have the balls to reveal their true identity much less EVER win a major event. This is totally NECKBEARD country.

You've been defending the person since they been spamming their so called service. Brown nosing doesn't get you far, remember that.

Daed it is necessary IMHO for just what I said. Public witch hunts serve no useful purpose. All the people here going for the kill were not even there. If Geoff Robinson post here proclaiming that Alex intentionally cheated then yeah but I honestly don’t think that will happen.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Thats exactly what I'm saying. If the top tables of one of the biggest tournaments of the world get a free pass on making so many mistakes, then competitive warhammer is nothing more than a joke. A sad one, because many people don't realise it is one.

I disagree. Warhammer is hard. Especially on a time crunch. I've forgotten to deepstrike 10 terminators until turn 3. I've missed timings for stratagems. There's a huge array of interactions that can trip you up.

There's no excuses for forgetting about 1/5 of your list I'm sorry. That's just making excuses for cheaters.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I've been top table at the end of an event, and I made a few mistakes. Yes, it was the end of the day, and yes, I was tired. The difference is that I corrected every mistake to the best of my ability, and the net result was that I lost the game, along with the shot at best overall. But that was the fair thing to do. I wasn't 100% on top of my game, and I deserved to lose.

In the case of a cheat, those "mistakes" will create a pattern that is consistently (but not necessarily always) in their favor, in order to win. They won't apologize for the mistake, and they won't be generous in correcting it; they'll typically say "Oh, let's move on, OK?" to carry the advantage forward. Unless they catch the opponent making a mistake, in which case, they'll typically want immediate redress. What someone says afterward is basically meaningless, because cheaters lie about cheating.

It's a key distinction to understand, between the occasional minor error, and an obviously blatant cheating.

Exactly. In X-Wing bumping ships happens all the time because of how you have to measure everything with the templates. I (and probably every other player) have even accidentally removed a position marker for a ship that had to be temporarily moved off the table and had to reconstruct the position of everything as well as possible. But the key thing here is that the bumps are rarely to anyone's advantage (general chaos is a more appropriate description) and if there's any doubt I always discuss it with my opponent and we work together to correct the error(s). Nobody is trying to exploit the situation to their advantage, it's just recognition that mistakes happen.

Same thing with rules mistakes/measuring/etc. I've badly annoyed some CAAC types in X-Wing by insisting on playing by the rules, even when it means their ship that is 1mm out of range is actually out of range and doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. But I've always done my best to measure accurately, explain complicated rule interactions even when they're to my disadvantage, etc. If I insist on that careful measurement and I'm in range by 1mm then that's it, take the shot. In the long run it all events out, and all the various mistakes/bumps/etc probably work against me as often as they do in my favor.


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 Primark G wrote:
Daed it is necessary IMHO for just what I said. Public witch hunts serve no useful purpose. All the people here going for the kill were not even there. If Geoff Robinson post here proclaiming that Alex intentionally cheated then yeah but I honestly don’t think that will happen.

Public "witch hunts" are necessary because there's a lot of social pressure for the other player in a game like this to say "no big deal" and avoid being labeled TFG. If the only way to do anything about cheating is for the other player to fight it then you put them in a really awkward position and a lot of people are just going to give up and move on. This is why judges/TOs need to get involved, and when they fail the community should make it clear that cheating is not acceptable and cheaters are not welcome.

Nothing will ever come from this because of how the TOs chose to handle it.

 Primark G wrote:
Nothing will ever come from this because of how the TOs chose to handle it.

Agreed. I get that catching cheaters and punishing them is a move in the right direction for competitive 40k. But issuing a lifetime ban to a man who may have not even been intentionally cheating in the first place in a misguided attempt to "send a message" to cheaters is absolutely not a good way to do it. The "conduct" for which the ban was issued was being displayed by his opponent, and most likely a sizable portion of the contenders at the other top tables as well which makes it doubly unjust.

Everyone is so out for blood and eager to punish "cheaters" so harshly (both officially and unofficially through public humiliation) that they don't even stop to consider if they have the right target, or that what they are doing is actually constructive towards the goals of stopping intentional cheating in 40k. It is absolutely a witch hunt. It is a bunch of armchair players who weren't there, sitting around and judging errors in a game with the benefit of hindsight, whose only "evidence" is a recording that shows mistakes on BOTH sides that can be explained away as entirely unintentional, and which doesn't even show the players in question the majority of the time to give context to these mistakes.

It is absolutely sad. I hate how our society's concept of fair punishment and justice is morphing ever so slowly into the equivalent of the whims of a virtual lynch mob.