Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

See spoilers for the rules. The dead walk again strat was played. A unit of 4 poxwalkers kills an infantry character (grey knights is just an example). Only in death does duty end is played. What happens ? Does the character have to fight 5 poxwalkers ? Does the character have to fight 4 poxwalkers ? If he kills all 4, does 1 poxwalker remain ? If he kills all 4, there is no poxwalker unit anymore, no poxwalker is added, because the unit is gone ?

 p5freak wrote:
See spoilers for the rules. The dead walk again strat was played. A unit of 4 poxwalkers kills an infantry character (grey knights is just an example). Only in death does duty end is played. What happens ? Does the character have to fight 5 poxwalkers ? Does the character have to fight 4 poxwalkers ? If he kills all 4, does 1 poxwalker remain ? If he kills all 4, there is no poxwalker unit anymore, no poxwalker is added, because the unit is gone ?

Spoiler:

The Sequencing rule takes effect. Whoever's turn it is decides if the Poxwalker is added before or after the Character gets to attack.

If the Character attacks first and kills the other 4, I think the game breaks because you need to put the new model "within unit coherency of a model in its own unit that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase in which the new model was created.", as per the FAQ, which you no longer can do, since adding is not optional, and the FAQ only has a provision for not putting the model if there is no room.

Scratch that. The BRB says "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play." The Poxwalker is added after the model is slain, not when the model is removed from play. The Stratagem happens "when X is slain" but "Before removing it from the battlefield", so the Poxwalker is always added in the femtosecond after the model is slain but before it is removed, which is when you use the stratagem anyway, so the Poxwalker always is added before the dude gets to swing back. CRISIS AVERTED! Or maybe not if you count "and" to cause both "slain" and "removed" to happen simultaneously, in which case Sequencing breaks the game again.

The trigger for both is the same - a model being slain. Sequence it if you wanna run it strictly RAW.

Tbh, HIWPI is to resolve the shot/attack then add a Poxwalker (so long as their unit isn’t now all dead) as the rule is meant to represent the dead dude rising as a zomb... *WE’RE NOT USING THE Z WORD!!!*

2/10 johnny vs BCB thread. Needs more cow bell.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Scratch that. The BRB says "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play." The Poxwalker is added after the model is slain, not when the model is removed from play. The Stratagem happens "when X is slain" but "Before removing it from the battlefield", so the Poxwalker is always added in the femtosecond after the model is slain but before it is removed, which is when you use the stratagem anyway, so the Poxwalker always is added before the dude gets to swing back. CRISIS AVERTED! Or maybe not if you count "and" to cause both "slain" and "removed" to happen simultaneously, in which case Sequencing breaks the game again.

Nah, both the use of Only In Death Does Duty End and the amended Curse of the Walking Pox via The Dead Walk Again are to happen at the same time; when a model is slain. The player whose turn it is therefore chooses whether Only In Death Does Duty End or Curse of the Walking Pox++ is resolved first.

Interestingly, it seems only the Grey Knights version of Only In Death Does Duty End has any explicit mention of "before removing (the model) from the battelfield". The others simply say, "immediately".

There is RAW, and there is (some) sense and logic, even when sequencing comes into play, and its the poxwalkers players turn, and he decides to add a poxwalker first. Its not possible, he just died and makes his last attacks, he is the fifth poxwalker, he cant attack himself. He could fight the other 4 poxwalkers, before becoming a mindless zombie himself. If he kills the 4 poxwalkers, then he remains as 1 poxwalker.

 p5freak wrote:
There is RAW, and there is (some) sense and logic, even when sequencing comes into play, and its the poxwalkers players turn, and he decides to add a poxwalker first. Its not possible, he just died and makes his last attacks, he is the fifth poxwalker, he cant attack himself. He could fight the other 4 poxwalkers, before becoming a mindless zombie himself. If he kills the 4 poxwalkers, then he remains as 1 poxwalker.

Do not bring "realism" (which is what you're trying here) into the game. The result you received is the one result I really don't see happening based on the rules.
"realism" would let you create poxwalkers even if the poxwalker unit was already wiped because they'd still spread diseases etc - but that's not how the rules are designed.

HIWPI is by using Sequencing - Active player decides the order of operations, and if the poxwalkers are wiped before the new poxwalker rises, he's not going to rise since the unit he'd join doesn't exist anymore.

nekooni wrote:

Do not bring "realism" (which is what you're trying here) into the game. The result you received is the one result I really don't see happening based on the rules.
"realism" would let you create poxwalkers even if the poxwalker unit was already wiped because they'd still spread diseases etc - but that's not how the rules are designed.

If you play without any realism i wouldnt play you. I dont want to see a land raider on top of trees, or driving up a wall, lying on its side, or upside down.

nekooni wrote:

HIWPI is by using Sequencing - Active player decides the order of operations, and if the poxwalkers are wiped before the new poxwalker rises, he's not going to rise since the unit he'd join doesn't exist anymore.

Sequencing is RAW, and it doesnt work if the player who controls the poxwalkers decides to add a fifth poxwalker first. The character cannot attack himself, he is the fifth poxwalker.

Ignoring the rules, because if this happened in my game community we'd play it how it seems to make sense / RAI.

The Grey Knight gets to fight like it was the fight phase before it dies; it's his immediate final act. He fights against 4 Poxwalkers. The 5th is him and he's not a Poxwalker, yet. If he kills any number of Poxwalkers, even the whole unit, even overkills the unit and does 6 wounds, the entire unit is wiped. Then he dies and, technically, he did not die within 7" of a Poxwalker unit because he killed the unit before the unit killed him. I'd say he should still make a Poxwalker because it all sort of happens at once. So, in effect, the Poxwalkers would end up with a single Poxwalker remaining - this would be the Grey Knight.

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Do not bring "realism" (which is what you're trying here) into the game. The result you received is the one result I really don't see happening based on the rules.
"realism" would let you create poxwalkers even if the poxwalker unit was already wiped because they'd still spread diseases etc - but that's not how the rules are designed.

If you play without any realism i wouldnt play you. I dont want to see a land raider on top of trees, or driving up a wall, lying on its side, or upside down.

That's fine with me, but you basically built a strawman there. You can't base a rule interpretation on realism is what I said.

nekooni wrote:

HIWPI is by using Sequencing - Active player decides the order of operations, and if the poxwalkers are wiped before the new poxwalker rises, he's not going to rise since the unit he'd join doesn't exist anymore.

Sequencing is RAW, and it doesnt work if the player who controls the poxwalkers decides to add a fifth poxwalker first. The character cannot attack himself, he is the fifth poxwalker.

But it works RAW. It's just not logical or "realistic".

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Scratch that. The BRB says "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play." The Poxwalker is added after the model is slain, not when the model is removed from play. The Stratagem happens "when X is slain" but "Before removing it from the battlefield", so the Poxwalker is always added in the femtosecond after the model is slain but before it is removed, which is when you use the stratagem anyway, so the Poxwalker always is added before the dude gets to swing back. CRISIS AVERTED! Or maybe not if you count "and" to cause both "slain" and "removed" to happen simultaneously, in which case Sequencing breaks the game again.

Nah, both the use of Only In Death Does Duty End and the amended Curse of the Walking Pox via The Dead Walk Again are to happen at the same time; when a model is slain. The player whose turn it is therefore chooses whether Only In Death Does Duty End or Curse of the Walking Pox++ is resolved first.

Interestingly, it seems only the Grey Knights version of Only In Death Does Duty End has any explicit mention of "before removing (the model) from the battelfield". The others simply say, "immediately".

But, the rules say slain models are removed from play. Only in Death Does Duty End does state before removing the model from the battlefield, so you haven't finished taking care of what you must do for a slain model at that point. The Dead Walk Again says when a model is slain, but that process isn't completed until the model is removed. So, I would say that it doesn't matter whose turn it is, you always use Only In Death Does Duty End before removing the model, and only after that do you get The Dead Walk Again kicking in and the ....zuvembie (to use the 1970's Comics Code approved substitution for the "Z word") coming back as a poxwalker.

 doctortom wrote:
But, the rules say slain models are removed from play. Only in Death Does Duty End does state before removing the model from the battlefield, so you haven't finished taking care of what you must do for a slain model at that point. The Dead Walk Again says when a model is slain, but that process isn't completed until the model is removed. So, I would say that it doesn't matter whose turn it is, you always use Only In Death Does Duty End before removing the model, and only after that do you get The Dead Walk Again kicking in and the ....zuvembie (to use the 1970's Comics Code approved substitution for the "Z word") coming back as a poxwalker.

See this? This is a logical, thought out and (most importantly) rules based argument that has actual merit.

Now that you explain it like that, you are indeed correct, the process of being slain and removing the model are a single step, not separate. It would need to say "slain or destroyed and then removed from play" in order for it to be separate steps. Thus, the Only In Death Does Duty End interrupts that step before you remove the model, and since the model has not yet been removed it has not been slain, thus the Poxwalker effect has no choice but to occur after Only In Death Does Duty End resolves, regardless of the player turn. Since you can't set up a model in coherency with its unit if all the models are dead, you can't set up the model.

<Rant>To those who like to try and smear me as someone who never "admits they are wrong", this is how you get me to change my mind, with proper arguments instead of just upping the amplitude of the screeching.

Thank you doctortom!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Now that you explain it like that, you are indeed correct, the process of being slain and removing the model are a single step, not separate. It would need to say "slain or destroyed and then removed from play" in order for it to be separate steps. Thus, the Only In Death Does Duty End interrupts that step before you remove the model, and since the model has not yet been removed it has not been slain, thus the Poxwalker effect has no choice but to occur after Only In Death Does Duty End resolves, regardless of the player turn. Since you can't set up a model in coherency with its unit if all the models are dead, you can't set up the model.

To further complicate things, by that reasoning, aren't the model being slain and removed from play to happen at the same time therefore triggering Sequencing to resolve them one after the other?

If that were the case, we could conceivably have...

1. Model reduced to 0 wounds.
2. Current player resolves removal from play first.
3. Current player resolves model slain first.
4. Adeptus Astartes player now unable to use Grey Knights/Dark Angels varieties of Only In Death Does Duty End as the model has been removed from the battlefield, but could use Space Marines, Blood Angels and Deathwatch versions, as they simply state "immediately" (after the model is slain) and make no mention of "before removing the model" or similar.
5. Death Guard player resolves Curse of the Walking Pox.

Or alternatively...

1. Model reduced to 0 wounds.
2. Current player resolves model slain first.
3. Curse of the Walking Pox / Only In Death Does Duty End triggers / is able to be used.
4. Current player resolves their choice of rule or stratagem.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

To further complicate things, by that reasoning, aren't the model being slain and removed from play to happen at the same time therefore triggering Sequencing to resolve them one after the other?

No, its one rule. Sequencing comes into play when two, or more, rules are to be resolved at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

But it works RAW. It's just not logical or "realistic".

RAW is irrelevant when it comes to the most important rule. Its above all other rules by definition, because its the most important.

The Most Important Rule

In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as Warhammer 40,000, there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!).

No poxwalker is added before the character has made its last attacks with only in dead does duty end, because it makes the most sense.

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

But it works RAW. It's just not logical or "realistic".

RAW is irrelevant when it comes to the most important rule. Its above all other rules by definition, because its the most important.

The Most Important Rule

In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as Warhammer 40,000, there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!).

No poxwalker is added before the character has made its last attacks with only in dead does duty end, because it makes the most sense.

Come on.

Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC) wrote:3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.

Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC) wrote:7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

nekooni wrote:

The Most Important Rule

No, you come on. The most important rule is RAW.

Dude,TMIR is an on-the-fly solving tool, not a YMDC Top Trumps card. It’s not supposed to be referenced here.

If you want to TMIR narrative approach this then you could easily argue that it is not the dying model but a previously dead model that re-animates using Nurgle's ability for endless hugs... Nurgle's benevolence is the most important rule.

I would have thought the Dead walk again triggers first because it was played first but shows what I know about sequencing.

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

The Most Important Rule

No, you come on. The most important rule is RAW.

It's literally in the fething tenets (rightfully so) that you do not argue based on it, because it's completely pointless to do so in a rules discussion
If you're interested in a rules discussion, you drop it. Otherwise I'm out.

nekooni wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

The Most Important Rule

No, you come on. The most important rule is RAW.

It's literally in the fething tenets (rightfully so) that you do not argue based on it, because it's completely pointless to do so in a rules discussion
If you're interested in a rules discussion, you drop it. Otherwise I'm out.

If you were to invoke the Most Important Rule on this, I'd invoke The Most Important Rule on the typo saying my Tactical Marines only have 1 wound when they should have 30. "The Most Important Rule" is pointless because it simply breaks the game.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

The Most Important Rule

No, you come on. The most important rule is RAW.

It's literally in the fething tenets (rightfully so) that you do not argue based on it, because it's completely pointless to do so in a rules discussion
If you're interested in a rules discussion, you drop it. Otherwise I'm out.

If you were to invoke the Most Important Rule on this, I'd invoke The Most Important Rule on the typo saying my Tactical Marines only have 1 wound when they should have 30. "The Most Important Rule" is pointless because it simply breaks the game.

It does quite literally the opposite and allows you to move on instead of having a heated argument mid-game.

It doesn’t allow you to cheat, which is what you describe above.

Can we just agree that TMIR has nothing to do in a rules discussion and be done with it? Yes, BCB, you COULD try to use it for something like that, but you'd probably receive a dreadsock to your face for trying it (not as a joke) at an actual table. And yes, Johnny, it helps with solving issues at the table.

But the bottom line is that we're not at a table here. The whole point of this board is to have a proper discussion, and TMIR is meant to NOT have a discussion, but just continue on with the game. Therefore we do not use it in here.

BCB wrote:Now that you explain it like that, you are indeed correct, the process of being slain and removing the model are a single step, not separate. It would need to say "slain or destroyed and then removed from play" in order for it to be separate steps. Thus, the Only In Death Does Duty End interrupts that step before you remove the model, and since the model has not yet been removed it has not been slain, thus the Poxwalker effect has no choice but to occur after Only In Death Does Duty End resolves, regardless of the player turn. Since you can't set up a model in coherency with its unit if all the models are dead, you can't set up the model.

Sounds good to me!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

It's literally in the fething tenets (rightfully so) that you do not argue based on it, because it's completely pointless to do so in a rules discussion
If you're interested in a rules discussion, you drop it. Otherwise I'm out. If you were to invoke the Most Important Rule on this, I'd invoke The Most Important Rule on the typo saying my Tactical Marines only have 1 wound when they should have 30. "The Most Important Rule" is pointless because it simply breaks the game.

TMIR is part of the rules, its the no. 1 rule, on top of all rules. How can it be completely pointless to discuss a rule in a rules discussion ?? How can TMIR break the game, if it provides a solution to an unclear situation, and move on with the game ?

Dude, it’s disallowed by the tenets of this subforum. Move on.

p5freak, they're referring to this post in case you missed it.

TMIR, for this forum, does not help in solving a rules problem. Repeatedly referring to this is simply dragging the argument off-topic.

Please don't do this moving forward.

Thank you.