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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

You sound a lot like a troll to me. Care to leave the discussion to people who actually want to discuss the topic?

You mean people who want to get wound up about a codex that hasn't been released yet? Sure, have at it, I'll leave you to your unwarranted outrage.

Didn't he qoute me? I never said I wasn't complaining and I also used a lot of Ifs in my sentence. I msde sure to put the ifs in in case people said I was complaining right now. I'm preparing mah complaining so I can be hapoy if we get something and say sorry to yall... or say 'i told you so'. Win win for me...

Also it's my thread. If people do not get needlessly wound up in my thread the it's not a very good dakkadakka thread! But what we should complain about is the game, not each other. If you want to counter our argument to give us hope then show us ways gw might give us new models... don't just yell at us to stop typing.

phillv85 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

You sound a lot like a troll to me. Care to leave the discussion to people who actually want to discuss the topic?

You mean people who want to get wound up about a codex that hasn't been released yet? Sure, have at it, I'll leave you to your unwarranted outrage.

Nah, I mean people who want to discuss the contents of the codex and their hopes/concerns with it. Y'know, the topic.

So aparntly (according to this rumour here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347927-heavy-salt-rumors-gene-stealer-cult-reddit-rumors/)

The GSC will lose most their units as well. People on that thread are totally okay with it but I have no idea why. Screw balance and lore... it it means people will lose hundreds of pounds worth kf models then it's just not fair for those people who had fun and never harmed anyone untill GW decided they want to ruin their fun. Really super hope this is a rumour.

I'm actually mainly complaining about people's reactions here. They're okay with this but would love to see their reaction if Gw came in and said ig troops could never be taken because they're painted blue.... or if GW said every marine but ultramarines painted like Ultramarines were now banned.

People are more cool with it because they understand that making an army called ‘Imperial Guard’, and then making another army ‘Imperial Guard + 1’ isn’t a spectacularly good idea. It’s an uncharacteristically good balance decision by GW over sheer profiteering and it’s being rightly praised.

Also, that board isn’t as dauntingly negative as this one...

 lolman1c wrote:
So aparntly (according to this rumour here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347927-heavy-salt-rumors-gene-stealer-cult-reddit-rumors/)

The GSC will lose most their units as well. People on that thread are totally okay with it but I have no idea why. Screw balance and lore... it it means people will lose hundreds of pounds worth kf models then it's just not fair for those people who had fun and never harmed anyone untill GW decided they want to ruin their fun. Really super hope this is a rumour.

I'm actually mainly complaining about people's reactions here. They're okay with this but would love to see their reaction if Gw came in and said ig troops could never be taken because they're painted blue.... or if GW said every marine but ultramarines painted like Ultramarines were now banned.

Isnt it mostly "competetive" players that takes ogryns and baneblades with their gsc? My stealer cult didnt lose choce.

Back on topic, i am sure orks will lose a number of option ant that the codex will suck, on the other hand there is always hope i guess...

kombatwombat wrote:
People are more cool with it because they understand that making an army called ‘Imperial Guard’, and then making another army ‘Imperial Guard + 1’ isn’t a spectacularly good idea. It’s an uncharacteristically good balance decision by GW over sheer profiteering and it’s being rightly praised.

Also, that board isn’t as dauntingly negative as this one...

Isn't the Imperial Guards +1 the Marine codex? You don't see them been banned from taking a baneblade.

How the hell is destroying people's armies a "spectacularly good idea"? People worked hard and spent a lot of money on those armies! And they suddenly lose all that because at tournaments maybe a few GSC brought units you wouldn't even see at a tournament anyway? To me (If gw did this) it would be like GW suddenly announcing tomorrow that half of your army was now illegal dispite you playing it for years.

This would be an overly lazy move! you can make it where you don't just have a IG clone army but at the same time don't make hundreds of pounds worth of people's collections illegal. Gw advertised these models as playable but now they have the money it's just gone?

 lolman1c wrote:


How the hell is destroying people's armies a "spectacularly good idea"? People worked hard and spent a lot of money on those armies! And they suddenly lose all that because at tournaments maybe a few GSC brought units you wouldn't even see at a tournament anyway? To me (If gw did this) it would be like GW suddenly announcing tomorrow that half of your army was now illegal dispite you playing it for years.

How is this any different from someone who went and bought as many storm ravens as possible and now they can't cap objectives and are limited to 3?

If you want to use whatever you want stay out of matched play.

kombatwombat wrote:
People are more cool with it because they understand that making an army called ‘Imperial Guard’, and then making another army ‘Imperial Guard + 1’ isn’t a spectacularly good idea. It’s an uncharacteristically good balance decision by GW over sheer profiteering and it’s being rightly praised.

Also, that board isn’t as dauntingly negative as this one...

You're right, GSC+IG+Tyranids is so much more +1 than;

IG+Admech+SM+BA+DA+Deathwatch+GK+SW+Custodes+SoB+IK+Assassins+misc.

Tyranids taking a Baneblade or some Leman Russ' wasn't busted; otherwise you'd see it at all the top tables - no, it was just fun, and fluffy.

I'm against removing options just for the sake of "diversity" - because that just doesn't make any sense. If you're talking about "balance", well - are you really trying to claim GW knows ANYTHING about balance or design?

fe40k wrote:
are you really trying to claim GW knows ANYTHING about balance or design?

They've hit quite a few good notes. How many codexes have been absolutely bad? Do you see where making a hyperbolic blanket claim like that might cause you to paint yourself in a corner?

 lolman1c wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
People are more cool with it because they understand that making an army called ‘Imperial Guard’, and then making another army ‘Imperial Guard + 1’ isn’t a spectacularly good idea. It’s an uncharacteristically good balance decision by GW over sheer profiteering and it’s being rightly praised.

Also, that board isn’t as dauntingly negative as this one...

Isn't the Imperial Guards +1 the Marine codex? You don't see them been banned from taking a baneblade.

How the hell is destroying people's armies a "spectacularly good idea"? People worked hard and spent a lot of money on those armies! And they suddenly lose all that because at tournaments maybe a few GSC brought units you wouldn't even see at a tournament anyway? To me (If gw did this) it would be like GW suddenly announcing tomorrow that half of your army was now illegal dispite you playing it for years.

This would be an overly lazy move! you can make it where you don't just have a IG clone army but at the same time don't make hundreds of pounds worth of people's collections illegal. Gw advertised these models as playable but now they have the money it's just gone?

given what we know about the reasoning behind why GSC can take guard limiting them to basic guard and not letting them take comissars and scions makes perfect sense to me.

Kerep your army thematic to the fluff and you're less likely to have issues

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:


How the hell is destroying people's armies a "spectacularly good idea"? People worked hard and spent a lot of money on those armies! And they suddenly lose all that because at tournaments maybe a few GSC brought units you wouldn't even see at a tournament anyway? To me (If gw did this) it would be like GW suddenly announcing tomorrow that half of your army was now illegal dispite you playing it for years.

How is this any different from someone who went and bought as many storm ravens as possible and now they can't cap objectives and are limited to 3?

If you want to use whatever you want stay out of matched play.

Are you insane? There is so much difference! For one, you can still use the storm ravens.. They're not an illegal troop in matched play. Secondly, the 3 rule thing is for tournaments not matched play. Finally, you can sell you ravens and still keep 3 to be used... if a GSC IG army become illegal then you ain't gunu be able to shift that.

Now any GSC player (if these rule come out) can't use most of the stuff they painted. This is not even about baneblades... it's about common units every GSC army probably had. This is even bigger than our hq crap because GW does sell conversion sprues! They encourage it! I saw someone on that forums who just painted a fun fluffy scions cult army. Basically, at this point, he just wasted his money and time if this comes 8ut.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
People are more cool with it because they understand that making an army called ‘Imperial Guard’, and then making another army ‘Imperial Guard + 1’ isn’t a spectacularly good idea. It’s an uncharacteristically good balance decision by GW over sheer profiteering and it’s being rightly praised.

Also, that board isn’t as dauntingly negative as this one...

Isn't the Imperial Guards +1 the Marine codex? You don't see them been banned from taking a baneblade.

How the hell is destroying people's armies a "spectacularly good idea"? People worked hard and spent a lot of money on those armies! And they suddenly lose all that because at tournaments maybe a few GSC brought units you wouldn't even see at a tournament anyway? To me (If gw did this) it would be like GW suddenly announcing tomorrow that half of your army was now illegal dispite you playing it for years.

This would be an overly lazy move! you can make it where you don't just have a IG clone army but at the same time don't make hundreds of pounds worth of people's collections illegal. Gw advertised these models as playable but now they have the money it's just gone?

given what we know about the reasoning behind why GSC can take guard limiting them to basic guard and not letting them take comissars and scions makes perfect sense to me.

Kerep your army thematic to the fluff and you're less likely to have issues

Yes... because my pink ultramarins scout army with imperial fist logos taking Gull face man is fluffy and thematic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next up... Grey knights.... don't like um, basically custodes -1. Might as well get rid of them... you kmow... for balance reasons. Huh, those Emperor's Children are basically Khorne Marines... might as well cut them out to cut down the chaos codex.

Hell, let's just remove every faction but ultramarines. Everything not a marine and not painted bluenis jow illegal so we can balance this game! Also Papa Smurf is now 27 points.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I hope there's more Space wolf units with Wolf in the title

What about Murderfang, who is armed with murderclaws?

Ice_can wrote:
If space furries get Russ forget anyone else getting viable spacemarines before 9th edition.

To be fair, Wolves are so bottom of the barrel right now that you literally have to scrape them off the floor.

Also I would consider Dark Angels more than viable, to be honest, while BAs are still more than decent.

 sfshilo wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I hope there's more Space wolf units with Wolf in the title

What about Murderfang, who is armed with murderclaws?

Does he still have murderlust?

I think GW hate Space Wolves but don't want to squat them.

I definitely feel sympathy for Space Wolf players when it comes to having to wait so long for a codex. I also agree to an extent with Space Wolves getting more unique units than other chapters. My reason for the latter statement is that in an interview one of the GW writers (Gave Thorpe, I think) explained that Blood Angles, Dark Angles, Ultramarines and Space Wolves got the most attention because they exemplified certain dichotomies. It went something like this:
Blood Angels are spiritually pure, but physically corrupt.
Dark Angels are physically pure, but spiritually corrupt.
Ultramarines are completely conventional.
Space Wolves are completely unconventional.

The above statement does make a certain amount of sense to me, and following that Space Wolves getting more unique units makes sense if they are supposed to be the exemplars of being uncoventional Space Marines.
(This is just one off-hand statement I hear in a podcast. I'm not trying to say it's definitive, just that the logic of it makes sense to me.)

However, it does drive me a bit crazy when some SM players from the special snowflake chapters say something along the lines of "[insert chapter/csm legion] doesn't need their own codex. They're too vanilla for that."* I'm definitely not super-familiar with every SM chapter and CSM legion, but the ones I have dug into have tons of cool unique stuff in the lore that never makes it to the tabletop. I'm most familiar with the Iron Warriors and they could easily fill out a book and model range of their own.
*Nobody in this thread said that, it's just something I've seen a bunch of times.

Of course the Xenos factions and IG should have way more diversity than the myriad different flavors of power armored super humans that we get, if we were going closer to the lore. Power armored super humans are the most popular, and therefore the most profitable, and therefore get the most attention from GW. I'm mostly fine with that, but I do think that attention from GW in terms of rules, stories and especially models does itself drive popularity to an extent. I do think this has caused a bit of a feedback loop in terms of sales and new releases.

 lolman1c wrote:


Are you insane?

Quite literally not.

There is so much difference! For one, you can still use the storm ravens.. They're not an illegal troop in matched play. Secondly, the 3 rule thing is for tournaments not matched play. Finally, you can sell you ravens and still keep 3 to be used... if a GSC IG army become illegal then you ain't gunu be able to shift that.

What's the difference between 6 stormravens and 3 stormravens? 3 models you had to sell.
What's the difference between 1 shadowsword and 0 shadowswords? 1 model you had to sell.

Now any GSC player (if these rule come out) can't use most of the stuff they painted.

Common units like infantry, LRBTs, tank/company commanders, sentinels, and chimeras? Because all of those are there.

This is not even about baneblades... it's about common units every GSC army probably had. This is even bigger than our hq crap because GW does sell conversion sprues! They encourage it!

Yea, it pretty much is. The one scions guy who is your standard bearer for this (which is absolutely not fluffy) can still use his models as neophytes or play stylized AM.

Those units were not in the GSC codex - I am suspect people rushed out and built entire IG armies based on the index.

And if they did just play full guard instead. Problem solved.

With that said I have quite a bit of salt. Lets say you have the GSC codex - is this shot of brood brothers really the thing you would leak?

Okay first off stop saying that something is illegal due to its paint job, that's the weakest argument you can make.
Second, everyone's (except maybe Eldar and necrons?) been burned by the transition. I lost access to some bike options, I bought bikes ready to make some biker characters. Granted I still can but have to use the index, which is on borrowed time.

But frankly I feel nothing for you if you went out and bought a bunch of units you didn't have access to from guard in 7th and now you're not going to have access to them after the change to 8th.

Tyel wrote:
With that said I have quite a bit of salt. Lets say you have the GSC codex - is this shot of brood brothers really the thing you would leak?

The person probably doesn't have the codex. Sharing other more detailed info could point out who leaked the info and get them into trouble.

 fraser1191 wrote:
But frankly I feel nothing for you if you went out and bought a bunch of units you didn't have access to from guard in 7th and now you're not going to have access to them after the change to 8th.

Really dude?. Take someone like me, i've played Orks since 3th Edition, that is 10 years of collecting Orks right?
If his fears are correct, and GW are following the trend with 'No miniature, no codex entry' my 'Evil Sunz' army would loose way too much of their HQ options to be viable. I would actually end up with a ton of figurines that i can never use.

I understand peoples fears, it's really not fun to think that the army you worked countless hours, and spend a huge load of money on, can end up being wasted. Because of bad decisions.

I don't feel the same fear as many do, but i can understand it. I think the Ork release will be good for us, but GW have of course disappointed us in the past. But i choose to believe. What more can we do?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
With that said I have quite a bit of salt. Lets say you have the GSC codex - is this shot of brood brothers really the thing you would leak?

The person probably doesn't have the codex. Sharing other more detailed info could point out who leaked the info and get them into trouble.

Sure, usually people get the codex (I guess a week before pre-order, hence the day 0 previews), shares a couple of screenshots with a small circle and one of them leaks.
See for instance the Harlequin points leaks a few days before the original release as a good example.

Since I wouldn't have thought GSC are coming out for 2 months this would imply someone near the printers - but again, is this really the thing you would leak?

Also 3rd edition came out 20 years ago - and I can sympathise a bit with "I can't use my models" but I don't really get why GW alone is meant to resist obsolescence.
If you built that biker painboy in 2008 for 4th edition nob biker abuse then you have had a good run even if they finally say "its over" come 9th edition.

So back to the topic.

I know it was a long shot but the rumoured "new" Ghazzy/walker pic in the most recent White Dwarf has now been confirmed to be a conversion beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Makes me worried Orks are getting sweet FA this release apart from a book that could've been delivered 6 months ago.

Where's all the rumours at? We had rumours of new Knights way before they dropped. We also had rumours of rules for most other codexes way before they dropped (remember Necron entire dex leak), where is the noise around Orks?

All I'm seeing is wish listing from one camp and pessimism from another. Absolutely nothing concrete.

The not-knowing is killing me!

E - for those struggling with the issue around removing our models for which there is no official model. Imagine if they just removed Blood Angels or Deathwing or whatever from the codexes. That is the equivalent if Evil Sunz are not made playable.

Tyel wrote:
Also 3rd edition came out 20 years ago - and I can sympathise a bit with "I can't use my models" but I don't really get why GW alone is meant to resist obsolescence.
If you built that biker painboy in 2008 for 4th edition nob biker abuse then you have had a good run even if they finally say "its over" come 9th edition.

True, i had fun back in 4th Ed when Orks were pretty strong and i had my bikes with a Warboss and Painboy on them, without a doubt.
But the issue here is not that i want them to be as strong again nor viable, i can live with them being mediocre, even below mediocre. I just want to field them again because they are fun, instead of them never being in my codex and never play them again.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Where's all the rumours at? We had rumours of new Knights way before they dropped. We also had rumours of rules for most other codexes way before they dropped (remember Necron entire dex leak), where is the noise around Orks?

All I'm seeing is wish listing from one camp and pessimism from another. Absolutely nothing concrete.

The not-knowing is killing me!

Thats what im saying. I check the news and rumors section frequently hoping for a thread about ork rumors to no avail :(

That being said we havnt heard anything about SW either and dont know which codex will be first...

 Billagio wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Where's all the rumours at? We had rumours of new Knights way before they dropped. We also had rumours of rules for most other codexes way before they dropped (remember Necron entire dex leak), where is the noise around Orks?

All I'm seeing is wish listing from one camp and pessimism from another. Absolutely nothing concrete.

The not-knowing is killing me!

Thats what im saying. I check the news and rumors section frequently hoping for a thread about ork rumors to no avail :(

That being said we havnt heard anything about SW either and dont know which codex will be first...

Yup, it's kind of worrying....

Also doing the same thing lol.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
So back to the topic.

I know it was a long shot but the rumoured "new" Ghazzy/walker pic in the most recent White Dwarf has now been confirmed to be a conversion beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Makes me worried Orks are getting sweet FA this release apart from a book that could've been delivered 6 months ago.

Where's all the rumours at? We had rumours of new Knights way before they dropped. We also had rumours of rules for most other codexes way before they dropped (remember Necron entire dex leak), where is the noise around Orks?

All I'm seeing is wish listing from one camp and pessimism from another. Absolutely nothing concrete.

The not-knowing is killing me!

E - for those struggling with the issue around removing our models for which there is no official model. Imagine if they just removed Blood Angels or Deathwing or whatever from the codexes. That is the equivalent if Evil Sunz are not made playable.

was the ghazzy/walker belived to be anything more then a conversion by anyone other then BOLS?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Where's all the rumours at? We had rumours of new Knights way before they dropped. We also had rumours of rules for most other codexes way before they dropped (remember Necron entire dex leak), where is the noise around Orks?

All I'm seeing is wish listing from one camp and pessimism from another. Absolutely nothing concrete.

The not-knowing is killing me!

Thats what im saying. I check the news and rumors section frequently hoping for a thread about ork rumors to no avail :(

That being said we havnt heard anything about SW either and dont know which codex will be first...

Yup, it's kind of worrying....

Also doing the same thing lol.

It kind of is, but I just got back into 40k after a hiatus so I havnt really been following how quickly rumors pop up for a codex after its been announced. If the Ork codex wont come out until early July, thats still a good month or so away, plenty of time to get rumors. If its the second codex then were probably looking at late July or August, in which case thats almost two months, a bit early for concrete rumors, right?

 Warboss ZanZag wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
But frankly I feel nothing for you if you went out and bought a bunch of units you didn't have access to from guard in 7th and now you're not going to have access to them after the change to 8th.

Really dude?. Take someone like me, i've played Orks since 3th Edition, that is 10 years of collecting Orks right?
If his fears are correct, and GW are following the trend with 'No miniature, no codex entry' my 'Evil Sunz' army would loose way too much of their HQ options to be viable. I would actually end up with a ton of figurines that i can never use.

I understand peoples fears, it's really not fun to think that the army you worked countless hours, and spend a huge load of money on, can end up being wasted. Because of bad decisions.

I don't feel the same fear as many do, but i can understand it. I think the Ork release will be good for us, but GW have of course disappointed us in the past. But i choose to believe. What more can we do?

Wow. That's in the context of a GSC player buying scions cause he had access to them in the index then losing them when the codex drops. Yeah it sucks but GSC never had them before and they had a short lived codex in 7th so I would have played it safe and not got unit like that

But as far as Orks losing warbosses on bikes, it blows. White scars players lost their named HQ on a bike because the model wasn't on one. No tech marine on bike, apothecaries, librarians, chaplains so again. Yes it sucks that warbosses on bikes are probably gonna disappear given the trend, but a GSC player losing out on something he gained from a keyword, nothing.

Overall I'm optimistic for the Ork codex. I think that there will be at least one (and probably several) viable builds for competitive play. I think there will also be flavorful rules for most units for more narrative play.

I do have concerns about things being cut. I think they are valid concerns, but I'm not going to flip out before seeing what's in the actual book.

I have two other concerns that I thought about making a thread about.

One concern is that while new models would definitely be welcome, I hope they don't change the style so radically that previous models and art are jarringly out of place. I like the Ork aesthetic they been going with for the last twenty years or so.

My other concern is that I hope they don't remove the humor from the Orks. I've heard a lot of people say they don't like the humorous aspects of the Orks, but to me that's one of the most interesting things about them and without it they're just dumb Dark Eldar.

The thing that makes it interesting (and also pretty grimdark) is that the humor is all from the Ork's point of view (and the reader's point of view, depending in the story). To the average person in the galaxy the Orks aren't funny at all. They are big dumb Dark Eldar whole come in massive numbers to kill, torture, enslave, defile and eat everything in their path.

Shokk Attack Gunz are funny, but a Guardsman doesn't get to see the snotlings being sucked up. The Guardsman just sees his friends dying horribly as they are ripped apart from the inside. The Guardsman doesn't see the hilarious malfunction causing the SAG to explode. He migjt be dimly aware of an explosion in the distance but he's probably too focused on the four hundred pound bellowing green gorilla swinging a clever at his head to really know what happened let alone find the humor in the situation.

Orks certainly find it all funny. In many of the stories the humans think the Orks are roaring in anger, only to get closer and realize they are laughing. The Orks aren't taking themselves seriously and being laughed at by the reader and the Imperials. The Orks think it's all a gas and they're laughing at themselves (and everyone else). A core part of40k has been absurdist humor, and the Orks are in on the joke.

Ork humor is also incredibly grimdark, and almost always revolves around pain and death. An Ork will do things like slowly pull the limbs off a child because the Ork thinks the squirming and screaming are funny. The when it's finished the Ork will throw the child on the barbecue. It's really not funny. It's pretty horrifying. By our standards Orks are all violent sociopaths. They are the epitome of "it's just a prank, bro!" douchebags. It's fine to laugh at a lot of the humor in the Ork books. I laugh at it. It's often written in a way to make it more palatable. But when you really think about it, it should make you uncomfortable.

So I don't like it when I hear people wish that the comic relief aspect of Orks would be eliminated. To me that's kind of like saying Hannibal Lecter would be a better character if they got rid of his intelligence and charisma. One of the things that makes Orks interesting is that in some ways they are (intentionally) being goofballs out for a good time, but at the same time they are horrifying monsters.