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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Overall I'm optimistic for the Ork codex....snip....monsters.

I agree with this, one of the most horrifying aspects of Orks is their dark sense of humour and lack of self concern.

A core part of Ork representation is the humour and contrary to what many people think it's possible to have both their frightening power/animal savagery and their jovial, dark humour represented on the same model without it becoming ridiculous.

I also hope they don't take this away from the range, assuming we get any new models.

If you're deep on Ork lore hou know they're anything but savages. This is the joke.. people always under estimate them when they are just as advanced (if not more)than the Eldar because they're designed to already have an advanced tecknolgy knowhows before they are even born. People think that Ork meks ajust automatically have the trukk blue prints in his head but if this was the casr the every ork trukk in the lore woukd be the same... it isn't. Orks are very creative. They just have the lessons in their head not the blue prints. The old ones, korks or what ever the lore says now adays invented a weapon that in some way adapted to become self aware.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Overall I'm optimistic for the Ork codex....snip....monsters.

I agree with this, one of the most horrifying aspects of Orks is their dark sense of humour and lack of self concern.

A core part of Ork representation is the humour and contrary to what many people think it's possible to have both their frightening power/animal savagery and their jovial, dark humour represented on the same model without it becoming ridiculous.

I also hope they don't take this away from the range, assuming we get any new models.

I think the key is looking at the Orks as a race that is deadpan in their troll logic because to them it is what works and what makes sense to them. Orks don't see the universe the same way as other races and their reality bending collective beliefs allow them to operate in a way that wouldn't really work for other races. Those other races see the orks as a serious threat and don't find their quirks and crazyness to be comical because to them the Orks are a brutal threat. Its only through the lens of somebody not in the 40k universe do we get to see the humor of the Orks thinking red trukks go fasta instead of through the lens of a guardsman seeing said red trukk drive up and unload a small mob of hulking brutes ready to rip some heads off or fill everyone (and all the air around them) full of lead.

I find it funny how Orks can do anything they believe in but make their planes actually plausible. The Imperium make freaking flying babies and brick shaped aircraft.

I have a theory that most everything the Imperium does is made possible by latent psychic power, just like the Orks.

Edit: Which isn't to say that I don't believe that Orks don't make functional machines. I fall more into the "psychic grease" camp than the camp that thinks all Ork tech is totemic and none of it actually works. It's late and I'm having a hard time writing.

 lolman1c wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
People are more cool with it because they understand that making an army called ‘Imperial Guard’, and then making another army ‘Imperial Guard + 1’ isn’t a spectacularly good idea. It’s an uncharacteristically good balance decision by GW over sheer profiteering and it’s being rightly praised.

Also, that board isn’t as dauntingly negative as this one...

Isn't the Imperial Guards +1 the Marine codex? You don't see them been banned from taking a baneblade.

How the hell is destroying people's armies a "spectacularly good idea"? People worked hard and spent a lot of money on those armies! And they suddenly lose all that because at tournaments maybe a few GSC brought units you wouldn't even see at a tournament anyway? To me (If gw did this) it would be like GW suddenly announcing tomorrow that half of your army was now illegal dispite you playing it for years.

This would be an overly lazy move! you can make it where you don't just have a IG clone army but at the same time don't make hundreds of pounds worth of people's collections illegal. Gw advertised these models as playable but now they have the money it's just gone?

Okay so what YOU would make so that genestealer cults would have access to same units and not be just IG "but with better thanks to tyranids they can now take".

Ie why take regular IG if you can take IG+tyranids.

tneva82 wrote:
Okay so what YOU would make so that genestealer cults would have access to same units and not be just IG "but with better thanks to tyranids they can now take".

Ie why take regular IG if you can take IG+tyranids.

Off topic slightly but this right here is a summary of the problem with Imperial soup.

Why take just X when I can take X + Y + Z and make my force better?

 lolman1c wrote:
I find it funny how Orks can do anything they believe in but make their planes actually plausible. The Imperium make freaking flying babies and brick shaped aircraft.

Theoretically anything that produces more lift than downforce will fly regardless of crappy aerodynamics if you just make the engines gratuitously powerful. If those engines can angle upwards like the Stormtalon or have additional vertical thrusters like the Stormraven then it’s much easier.

Which I think is a delightfully Imperial way of thinking.

‘You’re mad, that thing’ll never fly.’
‘It will if we put EVEN MOAR ENGINES ON IT!!’
‘...praise be to the Omnissiah!’

kombatwombat wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I find it funny how Orks can do anything they believe in but make their planes actually plausible. The Imperium make freaking flying babies and brick shaped aircraft.

Theoretically anything that produces more lift than downforce will fly regardless of crappy aerodynamics if you just make the engines gratuitously powerful. If those engines can angle upwards like the Stormtalon or have additional vertical thrusters like the Stormraven then it’s much easier.

Which I think is a delightfully Imperial way of thinking.

‘You’re mad, that thing’ll never fly.’
‘It will if we put EVEN MOAR ENGINES ON IT!!’
‘...praise be to the Omnissiah!’

Or! The only reason the universe is even held together is because of Orks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Okay so what YOU would make so that genestealer cults would have access to same units and not be just IG "but with better thanks to tyranids they can now take".

Ie why take regular IG if you can take IG+tyranids.

Off topic slightly but this right here is a summary of the problem with Imperial soup.

Why take just X when I can take X + Y + Z and make my force better?

Exsactly, why take IG when I can take IG with amazing Blood Angel CC units? I geuss he just doesn't want Xenos players to play with his plastic toys.
If it was up to me I'd say screw balance and just let any army ally with any army just their buffs can never effect each other. Because right now i don't know how any of your are Okay with GW letting armies like GK stay the way they are but are not okay with people who spent a lot of money on a lot of troops suddenly unable to use those troops. Hell, how are these people okay with gullfaceman backing up assassins only, or the 1k points of IG brought in every "marine list" for the last few tournaments and not be okay with GSC bringing a few extra toys?

It seems many of you forget that GSC players have brought things like baneblades and Orgyns in last edition as well... I just don't know what has happened to the community. Happy to see half a faction have a bad day just so they can't play with your toys.

LOOK AT THIS! Don't you ever dare skipp this spoiler!

This is what 40k is about! Not your stupid win streaks... 40k is about imagination and bringing cool space crap to a table to sit around and have some actual fun for once in our dull, depression and pathetic lives! Are you honestly going to sit there and look me in my virtual eyes and say these amazing peices of artwork were only ever made by waac players who never won anyway? Are you going to sit down at a game and go "pfft... you GSC players shouldn't be allowed to take that. That's my model!" As your unpainted blood angels deploy on the feild alongside your IG? I would rather! And i mean this! I would rather have a full year of horrible broken games vs the countless grey ultramarine armis I fight if it means that one day i can fight someone who makes something as amazing as those! Hell, I would rather GSC become top teir and thrash every other army if it means the people who put their heart and soul into those models can continue to play them and make more models just like it. It sems a lot of you in this community have forgot about what 40k even is anymore or why anyone started playing it back in the 90s anyway.

people haven't forgotten this, thing is, GW has an entire ruleset for that now called Narritive play.

BrianDavion wrote:
people haven't forgotten this, thing is, GW has an entire ruleset for that now called Narritive play.

You know deep down that's not correct. You just don't want to sound like an Ork whose limiting his grots creativity. Narrative play is an extremely rare game mode (especially in my area). It requires a lot of pre planning, time organisation and limits you to a close player base. I've never had a single narrative game in my life because I play at stores in which I only get an hour or so on a table before I have to move on. In addition, you play mainly strangers you might not see again. However, matched play! You say hi to a guy, open up your codex and just play. No fuss, no debating over rules, no explaining needed. These are the games you're always going to play and games we were always happy playing for years. I once asked a player at my store if I could bend the rules for fluffy reasons and he looked at me like i was insane, looked at his holy gw bible and told me to F off. In addition, who wouldn't want an opponent at their table in a tournament to have an amazing beautifully converted army? I'd rather losr to him than win to the same lists i see over and over. But no seriously, let's take all the players you don't like who were happily playing the game and just isolate the player base so all the creativity is limited to basements so the "serious big boy" players can play the game they want.

 lolman1c wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
people haven't forgotten this, thing is, GW has an entire ruleset for that now called Narritive play.

You know deep down that's not correct. You just don't want to sound like an Ork whose limiting his grots creativity. Narrative play is an extremely rare game mode (especially in my area). It requires a lot of pre planning, time organisation and limits you to a close player base. I've never had a single narrative game in my life because I play at stores in which I only get an hour or so on a table before I have to move on. In addition, you play mainly strangers you might not see again. However, matched play! You say hi to a guy, open up your codex and just play. No fuss, no debating over rules, no explaining needed. These are the games you're always going to play and games we were always happy playing for years. I once asked a player at my store if I could bend the rules for fluffy reasons and he looked at me like i was insane, looked at his holy gw bible and told me to F off. In addition, who wouldn't want an opponent at their table in a tournament to have an amazing beautifully converted army? I'd rather losr to him than win to the same lists i see over and over. But no seriously, let's take all the players you don't like who were happily playing the game and just isolate the player base so all the creativity is limited to basements so the "serious big boy" players can play the game they want.

not relevant, narrative play is by design that "wide open catch all use your creativity" method of play.

 lolman1c wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
people haven't forgotten this, thing is, GW has an entire ruleset for that now called Narritive play.

You know deep down that's not correct. You just don't want to sound like an Ork whose limiting his grots creativity. Narrative play is an extremely rare game mode (especially in my area). It requires a lot of pre planning, time organisation and limits you to a close player base. I've never had a single narrative game in my life because I play at stores in which I only get an hour or so on a table before I have to move on. In addition, you play mainly strangers you might not see again. However, matched play! You say hi to a guy, open up your codex and just play. No fuss, no debating over rules, no explaining needed. These are the games you're always going to play and games we were always happy playing for years. I once asked a player at my store if I could bend the rules for fluffy reasons and he looked at me like i was insane, looked at his holy gw bible and told me to F off. In addition, who wouldn't want an opponent at their table in a tournament to have an amazing beautifully converted army? I'd rather losr to him than win to the same lists i see over and over. But no seriously, let's take all the players you don't like who were happily playing the game and just isolate the player base so all the creativity is limited to basements so the "serious big boy" players can play the game they want.

If you want to make wierd and wacky stuff, exercise your creativity and have fluffy homebrew then play with friends.

Pick up gaming will and should be limited to the vanilla default since you're playing with strangers.

Why would a stranger be willing to indulge your homebrew rules when he doesn't know you and doesn't have time to properly consider those rules?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
people haven't forgotten this, thing is, GW has an entire ruleset for that now called Narritive play.

You know deep down that's not correct. You just don't want to sound like an Ork whose limiting his grots creativity. Narrative play is an extremely rare game mode (especially in my area). It requires a lot of pre planning, time organisation and limits you to a close player base. I've never had a single narrative game in my life because I play at stores in which I only get an hour or so on a table before I have to move on. In addition, you play mainly strangers you might not see again. However, matched play! You say hi to a guy, open up your codex and just play. No fuss, no debating over rules, no explaining needed. These are the games you're always going to play and games we were always happy playing for years. I once asked a player at my store if I could bend the rules for fluffy reasons and he looked at me like i was insane, looked at his holy gw bible and told me to F off. In addition, who wouldn't want an opponent at their table in a tournament to have an amazing beautifully converted army? I'd rather losr to him than win to the same lists i see over and over. But no seriously, let's take all the players you don't like who were happily playing the game and just isolate the player base so all the creativity is limited to basements so the "serious big boy" players can play the game they want.

If you want to make wierd and wacky stuff, exercise your creativity and have fluffy homebrew then play with friends.

Pick up gaming will and should be limited to the vanilla default since you're playing with strangers.

Why would a stranger be willing to indulge your homebrew rules when he doesn't know you and doesn't have time to properly consider those rules?

You just proved my own point for me. Why would a stranger be willing to indulge in your homebrew rules? Thus, by removing the ability to use many troops that hsd official matched play rules (like the baneblades for GSC) you are splitting the community and making sure a lot of players can never play pick up games with their full army unless they go out there and buy more units to replace the hundreds of points they lost. This is why removing data sheets and abilities that were previously available to players in matched play is wrong and also lazy on GW's end. They need to make a way for people to still use these units in matched play while also encouraging players to not just make a tyranid IG force.

People payed for these rules and models (sometimes they saved up for a full year for these things). Why should they be forced out of a community (matched play and tournament community) because GW changed their minds. Why should theybhave to write their own rules after paying for them? This would be like buying a bike and painting it pink and suddenly the bike company makes it illegal to ride this bike anywhere but your back garden. Saying GW ows these players nothing is wrong and cruel! These were dedicated players who went out there and loved the hobby so much they spent a little extra money on it. Even if gw doesn't legally ow them anything I say theybhave a moral obligation to let them use the rules that were already there.

Your realise that when the indexes go away (and they will) loads of units will dissappear from all of the armies?

That there are FW models that didn't even make the index?

That two previous editions had vehicle design rules that were then dropped?

That codexes have had units that were later deleted?

Things change. Every unit isn't going to exist forever, that's never been the case. I've been playing since first edition, this is just something that happens. As for your moral obligation comment, no they really don't have to include and support every unit forever as you're suggesting. I'm quite comfortable with the idea that units get sacrificed during a streamlining and balancing of the ruleset.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Your realise that when the indexes go away (and they will) loads of units will dissappear from all of the armies?

That there are FW models that didn't even make the index?

That two previous editions had vehicle design rules that were then dropped?

That codexes have had units that were later deleted?

Things change. Every unit isn't going to exist forever, that's never been the case. I've been playing since first edition, this is just something that happens. As for your moral obligation comment, no they really don't have to include and support every unit forever as you're suggesting. I'm quite comfortable with the idea that units get sacrificed during a streamlining and balancing of the ruleset.

How is any of this a good thing? Just because it happens to other armies and continues to happen doesn't make it a good thing! If anything we should make a stand now to stop this from happening more often in the future! Or what is even the point of buying GW products if next week it could suddenly be made useless? (I'm not talking nerfed I'm talking full on doesn't have any rules at all useless). Don't use your age to try and argue you're correct. I'm sure there are a lot of older people in the world who argue for stuff we clearly know is wrong just because they experienced it.

How can you be comfortable with this? It's like saying " I'm happy for half the population on earth to be killed it it means I get to own a mansion and live a life of luxury. As long as it isn't my own country, friends or family of course."

I tell you what... Grey Knights. Clearly unbalanced and need a lot of work to make them a solid army. However, let's just remove them from the game. There we go, problem solved! The game has now been balanced and people can stop complaining about how uncompetitive they are. I'm sure they can make their own rules up to make them strong in narrative play. I'm so happy people lost something they cared about so I can have a happy gaming experience. Sure the 40k devs won't use this method in the future to just quick solve all their issues rather than sitting down and actually doing something creative, fun and balanced.

So is your plan is to just let the rules get more and more bloated over time or to have no more new units?

Frankly 40K already has way too many units. A paring down would be a good thing for the game.

If that means that some models that I have now need to be used as something else or not used it really isn't a big problem.

Lots of people (including myself) that built vehicles for the 3rd edition vehicle design rules weren't best pleased when we couldn't use them anymore but getting rid of the VDR was a VERY good idea.

I would rather people didn't suffer so I can have a fun time when I'm already having a fun time with the current ruleset. Especially when these models can be half of somebodies army and are a pretty new choice in terms of overall 40k rule history.

This is some off topic shenanigans but I think the key point is that in matched play Imperial players can ally with almost half of the model range, Chaos players can ally with about a quarter of the range, Aeldari players can ally with each other, GSC, Nids and IG can ally with each other and every other xeno is stuck with only themselves.

This leads to huuuuuuge imbalances.

Compare the Knight to the Stompa for reference.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Compare the Knight to the Stompa for reference.

The IK book doesn't give me a ton of hope for the Stompa simply because they seem to have done a great job with knights. I can't see them dedicating the design space for it in the codex. Enough point drops might do it, but it will still feel lackluster without IK style stratagems.

Hence, let's just remove all Xenos factions... will cut down a lot on models and make everything balanced. Good ol Marines vs Marines!

 lolman1c wrote:
I would rather people didn't suffer so I can have a fun time when I'm already having a fun time with the current ruleset. Especially when these models can be half of somebodies army and are a pretty new choice in terms of overall 40k rule history.

How about not dodging the question?

You believe that units should never be removed.

So, is your plan is to just let the rules get more and more bloated over time or to have no more new units?

So what do you do with the redundant models?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I would rather people didn't suffer so I can have a fun time when I'm already having a fun time with the current ruleset. Especially when these models can be half of somebodies army and are a pretty new choice in terms of overall 40k rule history.

How about not dodging the question?

You believe that units should never be removed.

So, is your plan is to just let the rules get more and more bloated over time or to have no more new units?

Dodge the question? You have dodged everything I have said over and over...given me one sentenced answers ignoring 99% of what I'm saying. You honestly sound like a robot and it scares me people are like this.

So here we go. Here is a clear and none dodged answer so you can't twist my words into your answer:

Yes, units should never be removed. Gw should spend time developing new models and adjusting rules to make existing units work before replacing them with new units. This would take up a lot of development and hold us over with new models for old rules. However, you have given a fake un researched answer you have just presumed. If gw spent time focusing on balancing everything that is already there (and not "bloat the codex" with an entire new army of primaris marines) then they can happily make new units as the old units are all balanced and can be left alone. I mean look at D&D, we're still using spells that were created almost 50 years ago. This is a hobby and a game after all not a competitive sport... I feel like in 40k I have to train, adapt and spend a fortune to keep up just playing friendly games. What happened to a bunch of mates having a laugh with some awesome looking models.... the only reason i dislike narrative play is because nobody wants to play it so i can't play it. I can't even bring my beers to gw anymore. XD now we have people happy for us to lose our armies so this fantasy idea of balance can be achieved. Balance couldn't be achieved when they had 10 models in each army. XD

Where are the Indexes going? The secret GW police are gonna confiscate everyone's copy as soon as the last codex is done with?

The indexes will continue to be used for Legacy options. Let's stop saying Index like it's a bad word....

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Where are the Indexes going? The secret GW police are gonna confiscate everyone's copy as soon as the last codex is done with?

The indexes will continue to be used for Legacy options. Let's stop saying Index like it's a bad word....

If the GSC rumour is true it would make the units illegal to use index or not.

Removing units is fine, as long as they are poorly designed units or unpopular. Some of the current ork models that dont have official models or are metal/finecast and would need plastic boxes are some of the best and most popular ones (Big Mek w/ KFF, Warboss in MA, Warboss on Bikes, Big Mek on bike, Weirdboy, Tankbustas, Gazzy) Most of these units are staples of the Ork army and would need something to fill the gap (no psyhics without weirdboy, not much AT without tankbustas, NO GAZZY, All HQs can only footslog/no armor upgrades)

This is why i feel for GSC. I know if I don't speak up for them now that some of our most staple units that every Ork army builds their entire force around might disappear (I'm talking units we still have but are ancient). You're and idiot and a fool if you think the index will last forever. It is there to keep you happy until you're all distracted by the next pretty marine and all us Ork players lose what gives us joy.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I would rather people didn't suffer so I can have a fun time when I'm already having a fun time with the current ruleset. Especially when these models can be half of somebodies army and are a pretty new choice in terms of overall 40k rule history.

How about not dodging the question?

You believe that units should never be removed.

So, is your plan is to just let the rules get more and more bloated over time or to have no more new units?

Dodge the question? You have dodged everything I have said over and over...given me one sentenced answers ignoring 99% of what I'm saying. You honestly sound like a robot and it scares me people are like this.

So here we go. Here is a clear and none dodged answer so you can't twist my words into your answer:

Yes, units should never be removed. Gw should spend time developing new models and adjusting rules to make existing units work before replacing them with new units. This would take up a lot of development and hold us over with new models for old rules. However, you have given a fake un researched answer you have just presumed. If gw spent time focusing on balancing everything that is already there (and not "bloat the codex" with an entire new army of primaris marines) then they can happily make new units as the old units are all balanced and can be left alone. I mean look at D&D, we're still using spells that were created almost 50 years ago. This is a hobby and a game after all not a competitive sport... I feel like in 40k I have to train, adapt and spend a fortune to keep up just playing friendly games. What happened to a bunch of mates having a laugh with some awesome looking models.... the only reason i dislike narrative play is because nobody wants to play it so i can't play it. I can't even bring my beers to gw anymore. XD now we have people happy for us to lose our armies so this fantasy idea of balance can be achieved. Balance couldn't be achieved when they had 10 models in each army. XD

You don't think that constantly growing the unit selection is creating an ongoing problem where new units and rules changes create more and more unintended interactions and it becomes unmanageable?

As to: what happened to a bunch of mates having a laugh? That's still happening. The problem you have is that you're playing games with strangers. If you were playing with your mates then bringing a GSC Baneblade after it gets removed from the GSC codex probably isn't going to be a problem (depending on you and your mates). The point of tightening the rules for matched play is precisely so that you can rock up and play a game with a stranger with the minimal of negotiation. This was a huge complaint (rightly) with the last couple of editions - that it just wasn't possible. It's not perfect now but it's much better. That was always going to involve reducing the options available. Play narrative with your friends (or just selectively ignore the matched play restrictions) and you can take anything you want.

Your D&D example is a very relevant one. Almost no-one plays D&D exactly as it's written in the rulebook (lots of groups play a game that isn't even especially close...). Setting up a game involves a bunch of conversation about which rules will be used, which will be ignored, which will be altered, which new rules will be added. Clearly this is not something that should be emulated for matched play.

I feel pretty confident that GW is going to make official models for units like tech marine on bike and such. It's just a matter of time really