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Nah, its too easy to say "bah they are idiots". No. Radical people is people that have been exposed to a constructed idea, normally manipulated to believe thats the absolue truth and to use them as a weapon, for monetary, sociological or political gain.

And I'm talking about radical people in general. You can't say "Bah, feminazis are just a small group of idiots", or "bah, homeopatists are a small group of idiots" (I know, homeopatists aren't as bad as white supremacist... but as they are actually killing people I don't know...), or "bah, white supremacists are a small group of idiots".
No, they aren't. They are people with a ideological and political agenda, they have a reason why they have become what they have become, and they won't just dissapear as long as those issues aren't fixed.

Well, let’s see.

Bizarre grudge against someone that’s not actually wronged you.

Demanding the head of Kathleen Kennedy, despite her clearly turning a profit in her role.

And just your general comments. I would quite, but I’m on my iPad, and that’s a lot of faff.

Even if you don’t realise it, doesn’t stop you being a misogynist.

And that goes for me, too. I consider myself a feminist. Yet I’m open to further learning.

Doesn’t make you or I a bad person, or our actions deliberate. But take a step back. Look at your comments, question where they’re really coming from.

Sinful Hero wrote:For what it’s worth, Sarkeesian has been known to frequent hobby stores before.

Galas wrote:Thats a very nice neckbeard. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

To be fair he does fit the stereotype. I’m more interested in what she’s doing though- looks like a board game of some kind? Could she be testing the expansion/module for the House on Haunted Hill(?) she’s credited for?

 Galas wrote:
Nah, its too easy to say "bah they are idiots". No. Radical people is people that have been exposed to a constructed idea, normally manipulated to believe thats the absolue truth and to use them as a weapon, for monetary, sociological or political gain.

A key element in dealing with radical elements is that their 'own' have to step in. I was a part of a small group of individuals focused on defending our Constitutionally-protected rights, and preparing for things like disasters, etc. Non-violence, unless we were forced to defend ourselves and our homes. At the time, it seemed like a great idea- we got together and learned to grow food, firearm safety, etc. But then came the crazies that wanted to fight the 'gubbermint' and raid the White House and arrest Obama and gunpoint and a lot of us were like, "No- stop, no." They pushed back, but we had to clearly make it known to them, and everyone else- "They are not us, they're crazy" and it worked... well, sorta. They kinda started their own group and got bored and some of them went on to more extreme Alt-Right type groups. But at least we 'cleaned our own back yard'. And I think that's what it takes.

 Galas wrote:
Nah, its too easy to say "bah they are idiots". No. Radical people is people that have been exposed to a constructed idea, normally manipulated to believe thats the absolue truth and to use them as a weapon, for monetary, sociological or political gain.

And I'm talking about radical people in general. You can't say "Bah, feminazis are just a small group of idiots", or "bah, homeopatists are a small group of idiots" (I know, homeopatists aren't as bad as white supremacist... but as they are actually killing people I don't know...), or "bah, white supremacists are a small group of idiots".
No, they aren't. They are people with a ideological and political agenda, they have a reason why they have become what they have become, and they won't just dissapear as long as those issues aren't fixed.

Yes, not pushing back against them damages the overall movements they latch on to and sometimes they might make the movements lurch in different directions.

As for homeopatists, these people are freaking scary, pretending to be a medical field while its all mumbo jumbo. White supremacists might be advocating killing people, but homeopatists might actually be actively killing people by making them believe their mumbo jumbo

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Lets use wikipedia instead then, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

I would argue that a wikipedia article that does not showcase both sides of the debate and the fact it is locked from been edited except from selected editors has something questionable in it, I have seen more controversial pages in wikipedia have less edit protection and a note that the subject is controversial and both sides dispute it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bizarre grudge against someone that’s not actually wronged you.

Disapproval of someone's methods, ideas, and behavior- hardly a 'grudge'. Hey, Richard Spencer never actually 'wronged' me and I loathe him, too.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Demanding the head of Kathleen Kennedy, despite her clearly turning a profit in her role.

I don't think I've ever uttered her name here, are you certain about this? At worst, I've slammed the writer of TLJ. You may want to fact-check again. I can write this off as an honest mistake if you're willing to admit it, otherwise- then you can just be lying.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And just your general comments. I would quite, but I’m on my iPad, and that’s a lot of faff.

In other words, you don't like how I said something (despite me saying we could find better women and even better feminists), so you're going to use the "I'm too lazy" to prove your blatantly false statement.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Even if you don’t realise it, doesn’t stop you being a misogynist.

Just because you don't like what I said, doesn't suddenly make me one. You're still name-calling and making demonstrably false statements.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Doesn’t make you or I a bad person, or our actions deliberate. But take a step back. Look at your comments, question where they’re really coming from.

Well, I consider people who make false statements about someone 'bad people' so take that for what it's worth.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nah, its too easy to say "bah they are idiots". No. Radical people is people that have been exposed to a constructed idea, normally manipulated to believe thats the absolue truth and to use them as a weapon, for monetary, sociological or political gain.

A key element in dealing with radical elements is that their 'own' have to step in. I was a part of a small group of individuals focused on defending our Constitutionally-protected rights, and preparing for things like disasters, etc. Non-violence, unless we were forced to defend ourselves and our homes. At the time, it seemed like a great idea- we got together and learned to grow food, firearm safety, etc. But then came the crazies that wanted to fight the 'gubbermint' and raid the White House and arrest Obama and gunpoint and a lot of us were like, "No- stop, no." They pushed back, but we had to clearly make it known to them, and everyone else- "They are not us, they're crazy" and it worked... well, sorta. They kinda started their own group and got bored and some of them went on to more extreme Alt-Right type groups. But at least we 'cleaned our own back yard'. And I think that's what it takes.

Yeah, thats exactly what I was saying. Calling them a "bunch of idiots" don't actually fixes the problem of their existence and the possibility of them growing in number. Not calling you anything, sorry, I was just disagreeing with the "idiot cousin" idea, at least because I understood it as some kind of "Just leave them be, they don't know what they are doing"




Yeah, I added that about homeopatists after editing my post. Every person that could have been cured of cancer with threatment that didn't chose to do it because a homeopatist used fear to lench economically from them until they died should be considered a murderer. Or the appropiate legal term for it.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nah, its too easy to say "bah they are idiots". No. Radical people is people that have been exposed to a constructed idea, normally manipulated to believe thats the absolue truth and to use them as a weapon, for monetary, sociological or political gain.

A key element in dealing with radical elements is that their 'own' have to step in. I was a part of a small group of individuals focused on defending our Constitutionally-protected rights, and preparing for things like disasters, etc. Non-violence, unless we were forced to defend ourselves and our homes. At the time, it seemed like a great idea- we got together and learned to grow food, firearm safety, etc. But then came the crazies that wanted to fight the 'gubbermint' and raid the White House and arrest Obama and gunpoint and a lot of us were like, "No- stop, no." They pushed back, but we had to clearly make it known to them, and everyone else- "They are not us, they're crazy" and it worked... well, sorta. They kinda started their own group and got bored and some of them went on to more extreme Alt-Right type groups. But at least we 'cleaned our own back yard'. And I think that's what it takes.

Everything you've posted is suddenly in very sharp focus.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Everything you've posted is suddenly in very sharp focus.

I'm a very moderate libertarian and a hunter. If this troubles you, then that's a personal issue for you. Identity politics on all sides are stupid to me. People looking to be part of a special group because of their skin, genitals, etc.- not because of their character, their actions, or their achievements.

All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.
What a waste of 25 pages.

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nah, its too easy to say "bah they are idiots". No. Radical people is people that have been exposed to a constructed idea, normally manipulated to believe thats the absolue truth and to use them as a weapon, for monetary, sociological or political gain.

And I'm talking about radical people in general. You can't say "Bah, feminazis are just a small group of idiots", or "bah, homeopatists are a small group of idiots" (I know, homeopatists aren't as bad as white supremacist... but as they are actually killing people I don't know...), or "bah, white supremacists are a small group of idiots".
No, they aren't. They are people with a ideological and political agenda, they have a reason why they have become what they have become, and they won't just dissapear as long as those issues aren't fixed.

Yes, not pushing back against them damages the overall movements they latch on to and sometimes they might make the movements lurch in different directions.

As for homeopatists, these people are freaking scary, pretending to be a medical field while its all mumbo jumbo. White supremacists might be advocating killing people, but homeopatists might actually be actively killing people by making them believe their mumbo jumbo

Yeah, I added that about homeopatists after editing my post. Every person that could have been cured of cancer with threatment that didn't chose to do it because a homeopatist used fear to lench economically from them until they died should be considered a murder. Or the appropiate legal term for it.

Yep, but like so many, they have become quite adapt at not directly saying it so as not to be liable.

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.
What a waste of 25 pages.

People purging about something they don’t like is not a waste, in fact it’s a good thing to moderate personal mental health, bottling things up leads to bad things down the road.

Hello,

Please stop call each other names. You may have convinced yourself that you are "just stating a fact" and that it may be constructive feedback but despite your intentions name calling is not conducive to productive conversation on a message board or probably anywhere else. First and last warning on this one.

Thanks!

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.
What a waste of 25 pages.

Seen worse and it has remained mostly civil, hugely disappointed on people not knowing prominent female industry veterans though, they exist people for decades.

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

Man... I miss so much RTS... that gameplay... those campaings, in many cases even better ones than RPG's!

I'm hoping Age of Empires 4 is actually good... maybe in the future we'll have a Rise of Legends or Age of Mythology 2...

 Formosa wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.
What a waste of 25 pages.

People purging about something they don’t like is not a waste, in fact it’s a good thing to moderate personal mental health, bottling things up leads to bad things down the road.

Typing furiously is a strange way to gain inner peace, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.
I don't get why people get so angry about something that fundamentally they have no real input in or are affected by its outcomes.
By highlighting the ladies panel appearance they are literally giving her and the organisers what they want I.e publicity..
I had barely heard of her or gamergate until this thread started , now I wish I hadn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

Man... I miss so much RTS... that gameplay... those campaings, in many cases even better ones than RPG's!



I'm hoping Age of Empires 4 is actually good... maybe in the future we'll have a Rise of Legends or Age of Mythology 2...

I will give you RTS's I loved those too.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

No cred unless you own the GDI and Nod miniature soldiers from C&C:T.S.

But on the topic of female and feminist leaders in the industry, don't we have quite a few to pick from? Wasn't one of the actual original developers of D&D a woman?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

The stealth genre is a joke now as well.

 Sim-Life wrote:
The stealth genre is a joke now as well.

I mean, these are legitimate grievances for the gamers out there. Instead of being focused on things like tiddies in a bikini top, we have actual genres that are dead- or exploited. Not only that, but there's outright terrible practices in the industry.

Parts of Europe and Asia being banned from MMORPG's and other online games.
Actual 'give money get better gear' practices.
'Open Beta' for Full Price (and game never completed)
Release-date DLC
DLC for actual ending of the game (Asura's Wrath)
Lockboxes

Kind of my grudge against the GG thing and the Journalists. This is all NOW an issue, and I was angry about some of it nearly a decade ago.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

Yes totally agree with this. All types of gaming has grown and evolved. Many viewed it as a boys only club but I feel it never was. As it grew more people got interested and joined in. I also miss C&C, so many late nights playing Red Alert and Generals with friends .

Exactly what changes can Sarkeesian bring to tabletop that hasn’t already started? Paizo includes non-binary and transpersons in their modules. WotC has been doing similar with D&D and MtG. You even have RPGs and games marketed exclusively to women like Blue Rose, and other demographics as well.

If she wanted to take an issue with something like Brother Vinni’s sculpts, he sells directly to his customers. What change could be effected?

 Kiggler wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

Yes totally agree with this. All types of gaming has grown and evolved. Many viewed it as a boys only club but I feel it never was. As it grew more people got interested and joined in. I also miss C&C, so many late nights playing Red Alert and Generals with friends .

Growing up gaming never was a 'boys club' for me with my twin. Nintendo provided huge amounts of entertainment regardless of gender and Heroes of M&M 3 had something for everyone, a staple for years. Sadly another cow milked to the bone and really ready to be taken behind the shed.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Exactly what changes can Sarkeesian bring to tabletop that hasn’t already started? Paizo includes non-binary and transpersons in their modules. WotC has been doing similar with D&D and MtG. You even have RPGs and games marketed exclusively to women like Blue Rose, and other demographics as well.

If she wanted to take an issue with something like Brother Vinni’s sculpts, he sells directly to his customers. What change could be effected?

I'm still baffled at how in RPG's where you can play nearly anything you want, why we need these changes. Were there actually 'changes'? Because I'm pretty sure back in D&D 1e if you wanted to be a trans half-orc or whatever, you were more than welcome to it unless your GM said no. And that's when you go get a new GM. A book isn't going to change someone's prejudice.

As far as tiddy models, there's a demand for them- if people wanna buy them or KDM penis-monsters, then that's on them to purchase. Just like others said about going to Anita's panel and "if you don't like her don't go", then the same applies to tiddy and penis monster models- if you don't like them don't buy them or play against people using them. And I say this as I work in a store that doesn't allow them, it's not what I'd call a crisis in the community.

I wonder whether transgendered people who want to play an avatar of themselves in D&D would play a transgendered PC or just play the character as already being of the desired gender. There is such a thing as magic in the world of D&D that solves the conundrum of finding oneself embodied as an undesired gender, or I guess maybe not every transgendered person sees this as a conundrum? I dunno, it seems too complex, personalized, and idiosyncratic to be something addressed by a toy company whose main concern is profitability.

There is this notion of "representativeness" where the idea is that unless a corporation explicitly depicts "you" (a.k.a., someone like you, defined in the most superficial terms possible) enjoying the product then the product is not for you or may even be designed to explicitly exclude you.

D&D's publisher giving explicit permission to play androgynous, transgendered, or non-heterosexual characters strikes me as presumptuous and conniving. Who needed their permission?

To me, it's amazing that anyone could confuse these blunt corporate tactics for "sensitivity." Likewise, GenCon honoring Ms. Sarkeesian seems very cynical.

 Manchu wrote:
There is this notion of "representativeness" where the idea is that unless a corporation explicitly depicts you (defined in the most superficial terms possible) enjoying the product then the product is not for you or may even be designed to explicitly exclude you.

The only reason I play 40k is because I feel represented by the average Guardsman. I've spent a lot of my time running around with a useless flashlight while people yell at me.

The whole idea of these panels is to get insight from the people who work the industry, since Anita Sarkeesian does not work in the industry and has not contributed anything special to it, why would her insight be more valuable or helpful than say Talima Fox or any of the other woman who are not only experts in the industry but have contributed enormously to it. Even if her only purpose is to bring up "being a woman in gaming" she still offers far less than so many others who again, have followings who would make their opinions and experiences a benefit to hear.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Kiggler wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Marxist artist wrote:
All this arguing doesn't change anything,she is still on the panel, table top will continue as it c always has, as has video gaming which churns out games that remains. As good as ever.

I take serious issue with "as good as ever", not because of people like Sarkeesian, but because the industry has mostly demolished the 'mainstream' RTS genre. I'm still bitter about EA smothering C&C with a pillow. The world weeps for the loss of Joe Kucan's acting

Yes totally agree with this. All types of gaming has grown and evolved. Many viewed it as a boys only club but I feel it never was. As it grew more people got interested and joined in. I also miss C&C, so many late nights playing Red Alert and Generals with friends .

Growing up gaming never was a 'boys club' for me with my twin. Nintendo provided huge amounts of entertainment regardless of gender and Heroes of M&M 3 had something for everyone, a staple for years. Sadly another cow milked to the bone and really ready to be taken behind the shed.

Heroes of Might and Magic is probably my favourite videogame series of all time. All of them are magic (ha!), the ones I like more are I, III and V. VI was playable and good enough, and I don't have a computer to play the VII, but yeah... the series has reach a very low point.
At least we will always have IV music to remember the saga... Paul Anthony Romero should be much more recognised has a videogame composer.

Because sometimes an external opinion can offer an alternative perspective.