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 Galas wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest people didn't killed nazis because they where nazis but because they started a war invading poland.

Until that point nobody really cared about what they where doing in his own country. Or, well, some people cared, but nobody tried to go to germany to kill them.

Meanwhile they still murdered tens of thousands while nobody cared before WW2. Never again is a pretty meaningless phrase in international politics.

I agree. I was just pointing out that second ward didn's started because of some moral imperative to stop the nazis for doing what they where doing. It was a war started by one country invading other, like many others.

I know, sorry for anything implied. But if it wasn't for the war they would have just kept going. Its a cynical thing, but it did destroy a good part of it.

Damn. Some threads make me very glad that my political stances are not based on the people that surround me in daily life.

Hiring a political agitator as a speaker at a tabletop gaming convention: Weird. no matter the affiliation.

But pro tip for everyone involved: Every professional political agitator you've heard of is a huckster, or being used by one somewhere along the line. That's how they made enough money to be on platforms that enabled you to hear about them. No, not just the ones from the "other team" that you actively seek out information discrediting and attacking them - also the ones from "your team" that you carefully avoid listening to sources that discredit and attack them. Milos and Shapiros and Sharptons and Nyes and Petersons and Sargons and Spencers and Sarkesians are different flavors of the same product that get churned out in the same factory, separated into different focus-grouped packaging, branded with different ad campaigns and maybe get sprayed with different scents.

Enjoy your argument as long as you like. Defend your Old Spice Brand Mountain Manly as the one true deodorant, despise hated users of Dove Soft Care Cotton Scent For Women! Your views are distinct and different and true, they are at best victims of a cynical corporate scam and at worst, actively malevolent.

So this woman gets on a panel and 40 pages later we get to Nazi's.

Truly she has an impact.....sadly

topaxygouroun i wrote:
This reminds me of this:


Wartime happened in 1940. This was 80 years ago. None of us was there. yes people died. Leave them in their rest, don't bring them into your agendas. 2018 is not 1940. If you let hate flow through you, that's how we will end up in the Dark Side again.

It wasn't wartime though, Nazis killed people before and during the war even to the detriment of the war effort. Its inherent to the ideology.

I highly encourage anyone with a 'punch Nazis' fetish to just STFU about it and go do it.

That way, you'll end up in prison where most Nazis are, and I'm sure you'll show them who's boss and not end up being someone's recreational device. Have fun!

Still not sure how we got here from Anita Sarkeesian and her politics/ideology, but-

Oh I know not why we got here, but who got us here. Hmmm... derailed enough, it seems.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
DC Comics relaunching Vertigo, so woke, it enters self parody (even has a book written by Zoe Quinn!)
https://www.newsarama.com/40263-vertigo-relaunching-with-new-titles-socially-conscious-message.html

Comics have been the next target for a while now (they even have a ComicsGate). Watch what happens to them so you can see what tabletop has in store for the near future. Why argue about progressive destruction of nerd hobbies when you can watch it happen in real time?

I fail to see the problem here. You say "make new stuff, don't change the old stuff to match your politics" and now here they are making new stuff and you still aren't happy. Somehow creating entirely new comics counts as "destruction of nerd hobbies", as if the mere existence of left-wing politics means that everything you enjoy is dead.

Hi it was me and I fully support it.

For shame people these comics are not captain america turned fascist or a myriad well established characters perverted and distorted to be something they never were, these are original stories, laugh them all you want, disagree all you want, they have the same right as you to create their own original content and you should support them for that.

Freedom of speech and freedom of expression is for all and all should respect it if we want to live in a society that will eventually learn to coexist, it does not matter if you agree with their ideology, it does not matter if you find the premise a joke, its their right to create something new and they have the same right as you do in creating their own stuff.

I majorly disapprove changing established stuff to express politics, I do not mind creating new stuff.


I do not say not criticise a work everybody has the right to do that, but the reaction on the announcement? please, read it and then criticise preferably with structure and constructively.

Remember this, the most difficult part in ideology and morality is to be consistent and just especially to your "adversaries".

 Necro wrote:
So this woman gets on a panel and 40 pages later we get to Nazi's.

Truly she has an impact.....sadly

Well its a pretty clear line "sarkeesian bad, dont make the community political-it was always political-no it wasn't-captain america-no he wasn't-cap fights actual nazis".

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, let's apply the same to Communists. They racked up a bigger body count and did the same exact thing.

Oh, wait- maybe we shouldn't just murder people until they actually act on it. Crazy, crazy thought.

You know perfectly well that the two are not the same. Communism is an economic system that does not require murder, even if Stalinist dictatorships have done awful things. One can advocate communism without advocating mass murder. Nazism, on the other hand, is fundamentally an ideology about exterminating the lesser races. There is no Nazism without murder, genocide is the entire point. So, while a communist may simply want to see certain economic policies implemented through legal means a Nazi is either a murderer or someone who wishes to be a murderer. If Nazis do not currently murder people it is only because of the threat of violence, whether from state-sanctioned police or from individuals acting in self defense, keeps them from doing so.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I do not say not criticise a work everybody has the right to do that, but the reaction on the announcement? please, read it and then criticise preferably with structure and constructively.

True. They're free to make what they want, and if it sells- oh well, people wanted it. But if it doesn't sell...

...we're bigots. But we're always bigots in the eyes of the unhinged, so no real change there.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well its a pretty clear line "sarkeesian bad, dont make the community political-it was always political-no it wasn't-captain america-no he wasn't-cap fights actual nazis".

Exactly. Comic books have always been political. It's absurd to talk about bringing politics into Captain America when the character was specifically created as a political figure.

the_scotsman wrote:
Defend your Old Spice Brand Mountain Manly as the one true deodorant,

Hold up, are you saying Terry Crews' Old Spice isn't the one true deodorant?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well its a pretty clear line "sarkeesian bad, dont make the community political-it was always political-no it wasn't-captain america-no he wasn't-cap fights actual nazis".

Cap fighting Nazis is one thing. But something is wrong if you see Cap Fighting Nazis and 'Donald Trump is a Nazi dictator in this issue' as remotely the same thing.

We were at WAR with the damned Nazis. Not people who voted differently than us.

Don't play ignorant. It lessens you.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

Have many Nazis tried to kill you? As in, in real, real life 2018? You, personally. Did people with swastikas came to kill you with guns?

Are you denying that there are parts of society that still believe in it? You should ask those German police officers who die in the line of duty against people clinging to the laws of the Reich in Germany. Its a dangerous ideology. Once they get into power its open season on a lot of people, at that point they have the right to defend themselves. Nazis have murdered people in recent years. We're not killing them for their beliefs right now are we?

Ok, I know in the US you are trigger happy. But please don't advocate you know how Europe works. And don't play the advocate to protect the German citizens from neonazis. Trust me there is no one on the planet with a deeper understanding and aversion from nazism than modern day Germans. There are about 0-2 German policemen per year who die as a result of their work. Latest data is in 2016, one policeman dead from a neonazi attack indeed. Previous to that, 2015 a dude stabbed two cops because he did not have a train ticket. Before that we need to go to 2011 where a cop died from a robbery shootout. Don't know what your media tells you, but the germans don't go burying policement to neonazis every second Tuesday.

"Once they get into power". They will not get into power unless they win majority in legal election. For that to happen the majority of Germans must vote for Neonazi parties. Once again, you need to meet more Germans if you think that's how they live.

Parts of society are allowed to think whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. Thinking is not a crime. Repeat as many times as you have to until you understand it.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I majorly disapprove changing established stuff to express politics, I do not mind creating new stuff.

Do you also disapprove of changing stuff for other reasons? I mean, it seems kind of absurd to complain about comic companies changing stuff when they regularly reboot their series every few years so they can sell a fresh round of origin stories and rehash the same old plots for the 340503450th time. The idea that comic book IP is some kind of sacred and unchanging story is just not reality. So if you're going to accept changes for all these other reasons what is wrong with making changes to a character's gender or whatever?

It's just like 40k and female marines. Every time the topic comes up there's an endless flame war over it and the thread gets locked, and people complain about how it would violate the fluff and be completely unacceptable. Then GW sees a potential market, introduces primaris marines that are at least as bad as a fluff violation, and people buy them in vast quantities.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Necro wrote:
So this woman gets on a panel and 40 pages later we get to Nazi's.

Truly she has an impact.....sadly

Well its a pretty clear line "sarkeesian bad, dont make the community political-it was always political-no it wasn't-captain america-no he wasn't-cap fights actual nazis".

Lucky for me I don't care much for Nazi's, Captain America or Anita Sarkeesian

topaxygouroun i wrote:
"Once they get into power". They will not get into power unless they win majority in legal election.

This displays a rather disturbing ignorance of how the Nazis did get into power in the 1930s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
But something is wrong if you see Cap Fighting Nazis and 'Donald Trump is a Nazi dictator in this issue' as remotely the same thing.

I missed the "Trump is a Nazi dictator" issue. Are you sure it happened? Do I need to file a complaint with USPS and have them track down my missing package?

 Peregrine wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
"Once they get into power". They will not get into power unless they win majority in legal election.

This displays a rather disturbing ignorance of how the Nazis did get into power in the 1930s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
But something is wrong if you see Cap Fighting Nazis and 'Donald Trump is a Nazi dictator in this issue' as remotely the same thing.

I missed the "Trump is a Nazi dictator" issue. Are you sure it happened? Do I need to file a complaint with USPS and have them track down my missing package?

And your answer displays a total ignorance of how modern Germany is structured and governed. As I said, you need to meet more modern Germans.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

Have many Nazis tried to kill you? As in, in real, real life 2018? You, personally. Did people with swastikas came to kill you with guns?

Are you denying that there are parts of society that still believe in it? You should ask those German police officers who die in the line of duty against people clinging to the laws of the Reich in Germany. Its a dangerous ideology. Once they get into power its open season on a lot of people, at that point they have the right to defend themselves. Nazis have murdered people in recent years. We're not killing them for their beliefs right now are we?

Ok, I know in the US you are trigger happy. But please don't advocate you know how Europe works. And don't play the advocate to protect the German citizens from neonazis. Trust me there is no one on the planet with a deeper understanding and aversion from nazism than modern day Germans. There are about 0-2 German policemen per year who die as a result of their work. Latest data is in 2016, one policeman dead from a neonazi attack indeed. Previous to that, 2015 a dude stabbed two cops because he did not have a train ticket. Before that we need to go to 2011 where a cop died from a robbery shootout. Don't know what your media tells you, but the germans don't go burying policement to neonazis every second Tuesday.

"Once they get into power". They will not get into power unless they win majority in legal election. For that to happen the majority of Germans must vote for Neonazi parties. Once again, you need to meet more Germans if you think that's how they live.

Parts of society are allowed to think whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. Thinking is not a crime. Repeat as many times as you have to until you understand it.

I'm dutch, born and raised, still living in the NL. I know how Europe is like. Look up Reichsburger. Most Germans hate Nazis, that doesn't mean there aren't some hardcore holdouts. People still die at the hands of Neonazis, how many are killed in reverse?

"It won't happen here, it won't happen here, it won't happen here"
The AFD is getting pretty apologetic meanwhile *looks at Gauland*

Thinking isn't a crime no, but that doesn't make them less dangerous.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean it worked pretty well in WW2, lot less Nazis around nowadays. Eventually they force you to take a choice.

We are not really discussing murder now, are we?

No, its self defense, Nazis work towards the goal of murdering their political enemies and those that don't fit their racial views. Would you have people just stand by and let the 1940's happen again or?

Have many Nazis tried to kill you? As in, in real, real life 2018? You, personally. Did people with swastikas came to kill you with guns?

Are you denying that there are parts of society that still believe in it? You should ask those German police officers who die in the line of duty against people clinging to the laws of the Reich in Germany. Its a dangerous ideology. Once they get into power its open season on a lot of people, at that point they have the right to defend themselves. Nazis have murdered people in recent years. We're not killing them for their beliefs right now are we?

Ok, I know in the US you are trigger happy. But please don't advocate you know how Europe works. And don't play the advocate to protect the German citizens from neonazis. Trust me there is no one on the planet with a deeper understanding and aversion from nazism than modern day Germans. There are about 0-2 German policemen per year who die as a result of their work. Latest data is in 2016, one policeman dead from a neonazi attack indeed. Previous to that, 2015 a dude stabbed two cops because he did not have a train ticket. Before that we need to go to 2011 where a cop died from a robbery shootout. Don't know what your media tells you, but the germans don't go burying policement to neonazis every second Tuesday.

"Once they get into power". They will not get into power unless they win majority in legal election. For that to happen the majority of Germans must vote for Neonazi parties. Once again, you need to meet more Germans if you think that's how they live.

Parts of society are allowed to think whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. Thinking is not a crime. Repeat as many times as you have to until you understand it.

I'm dutch, born and raised, still living in the NL. I know how Europe is like. Look up Reichsburger. Most Germans hate Nazis, that doesn't mean there aren't some hardcore holdouts. People still die at the hands of Neonazis, how many are killed in reverse?

"It won't happen here, it won't happen here, it won't happen here"
The AFD is getting pretty apologetic meanwhile *looks at Gauland*

Thinking isn't a crime no, but that doesn't make them less dangerous.

Would you shoot Wilders if you saw him on the street?

 Necro wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Necro wrote:
So this woman gets on a panel and 40 pages later we get to Nazi's.

Truly she has an impact.....sadly

Well its a pretty clear line "sarkeesian bad, dont make the community political-it was always political-no it wasn't-captain america-no he wasn't-cap fights actual nazis".

Lucky for me I don't care much for Nazi's, Captain America or Anita Sarkeesian

Well you could question the extent to which politics gets involved even outside of Cap. The first Iron Man movie has some scenes you could view as political depending on your angle. Its quite hard to avoid depending on your own stance and maybe(?) subsequent blind spot to what we find normal.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
And your answer displays a total ignorance of how modern Germany is structured and governed. As I said, you need to meet more modern Germans.

Modern Germany is not the only place that Nazis are a threat. This is from the US:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Would you shoot Wilders if you saw him on the street?

No, I don't know what your obsession is with the idea I'm currently actually going out and hurting people? I'm saying once those people start to go out to hurt me/others I have the right to defend myself/others.

How many were there? 50?

Once again. They are allowed to think whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it.

So does anyone actually know what Sarkeesian is going to talk about yet?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Would you shoot Wilders if you saw him on the street?

No, I don't know what your obsession is with the idea I'm currently actually going out and hurting people? I'm saying once those people start to go out to hurt me/others I have the right to defend myself/others.

Of course you do. Once it happens. but the previous comments (by Peregrine, not you) were advocating precisely this. Kill them because it's a good thing to do. Well, no it's not.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Would you shoot Wilders if you saw him on the street?

No, I don't know what your obsession is with the idea I'm currently actually going out and hurting people? I'm saying once those people start to go out to hurt me/others I have the right to defend myself/others.

Of course you do. Once it happens. but the previous comments (by Peregrine, not you) were advocating precisely this. Kill them because it's a good thing to do. Well, no it's not.

I think there is an entire debate to be had in how we treat the movement compared to other groups and how the state acts on them. However that is best left to other threads.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How many were there? 50?

Once again. They are allowed to think whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it.

They are acting on it. They are organizing politically and attempting to gain power. The time to kill Nazis and stop them from committing genocide is before they start exterminating whole classes of people, not after they get into power and officially start murdering their victims. Learn the lesson from WWII, appeasing Nazis does not stop them. Listen to Captain America, killing Nazis is your civic duty.

 Peregrine wrote:

I'll leave them in their rest when people stop parading around with Nazi flags and talking about the need for genocide to create a white nation and how Hitler was a hero. Until then the political statement made by the original Captain America remains true: Nazis are evil, and killing them is a moral virtue.

If you do to them what they did to their victims you are no different.

To whoever values the virtuous of democracy as it is now defined in the western world, the freedoms we have conquered through the recent decades, our culture and society as citizens of the west, it will never be "ok to punch a Nazi" because becoming a violent, authoritarian and totalitarian, regime to prevent the possible rise of a violent, authoritarian and totalitarian, regime is a complete betrayal to what the west stands for in values and in principle.

If you want to prevent the new "Nazi" to ever come up, never stop them from speaking, never deny them the freedoms our society offers and never attack them, do not give them the opportunity to be the victim and gain sympathy, do not give them the opportunity to call you justifiably a liar because you discriminate against them when your values are against it, do not give them the opportunity to show the world that you do not stand for what you speak.

Allow them to speak and call them on their ideology, remind everybody how they are allowed to speak when they would not allow the others to do so, show everybody that our society does not need to resort to violence to solve its problems even with its anathema and most importantly of all educate your young show them why our western society and values are better than theirs, that is how you defeat the Nazis.

Because whatever they may do or say the western values, the western freedom, however flawed, is always better and will always prevail in the end.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
If you do to them what they did to their victims you are no different.

Nonsense. That's like saying shooting someone in self defense is morally equal to torturing and murdering someone for fun. There is zero moral equivalence between committing industrialized genocide to exterminate the people you view as the lesser races and using violence to stop people from doing that.

If you want to prevent the new "Nazi" to ever come up, never stop them from speaking, never deny them the freedoms our society offers and never attack them, do not give them the opportunity to be the victim and gain sympathy, do not give them the opportunity to call you justifiably a liar because you discriminate against them when your values are against it, do not give them the opportunity to show the world that you do not stand for what you speak.

Or shoot them. Repeat as long as it is necessary to shoot Nazis. Nazis can not create extermination camps if they are dead. Freedom of speech is not an obligation to stand passively by and watch as the greatest evil in history organizes and attempts another try at genocide.

Allow them to speak and call them on their ideology, remind everybody how they are allowed to speak when they would not allow the others to do so, show everybody that our society does not need to resort to violence to solve its problems even with its anathema and most importantly of all educate your young show them why our western society and values are better than theirs, that is how you defeat the Nazis.

How did polite debate and superior values work in the 1930s?

(Hint: a whole lot of people were murdered, and a whole lot of people died to stop the Nazis.)

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Because whatever they may do or say the western values, the western freedom, however flawed, is always better and will always prevail in the end.

That's not entirely historically acurate. Often times it has only prevailed after a lot of people got hurt, not just nazism but other forms of fascism.