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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That doesn't mean that 40k is bad, because the goal of a hobby wargame is to have fun, and games should be judged on that metric.

That's a nonsense standard. Even FATAL has had people have fun with it at least once, so you're obligated to consider it a success. And when your standard for good and bad does not do anything to separate games into those two categories, with both having a non-trivial number of games in them, it's a worthless standard.

But people don't just enjoy 8th once. LVO is growing bigger, same for nearly every event. GW profits are soaring for longer than they could have if interest waned quickly.


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Not too mention in the FAQ's they do adress specific issues. Wether it is enough or too much can be debated. But they did nerf Flyrants , commisars and conscripts. They "adressed" the CP issue. With a flat across the board increase.

Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That doesn't mean that 40k is bad, because the goal of a hobby wargame is to have fun, and games should be judged on that metric.

That's a nonsense standard. Even FATAL has had people have fun with it at least once, so you're obligated to consider it a success. And when your standard for good and bad does not do anything to separate games into those two categories, with both having a non-trivial number of games in them, it's a worthless standard.

If people had fun with FATAL and they are still having fun with FATAL, than it's a success, for them. I'm not going to consider it a success, because it's not, for me, but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong and bad for having fun with a game I'm not into.

I don't understand your last sentence. The whole point of my post is that you can't separate games into the "good" category and "bad" category, because where hobby games are concerned those aren't objectively measurable. So of course I'm not going to propose a system that does exactly that ....

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If people had fun with FATAL and they are still having fun with FATAL, than it's a success, for them. I'm not going to consider it a success, because it's not, for me, but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong and bad for having fun with a game I'm not into.

Then we're going to have to disagree on this. If you're willing to call a game where you roll on multiple D100 tables to calculate the exact outcome of raping babies (an act encouraged by the game) "good" just because some really messed up person had fun with it then I honestly don't know what to say to you.

The whole point of my post is that you can't separate games into the "good" category and "bad" category, because where hobby games are concerned those aren't objectively measurable. So of course I'm not going to propose a system that does exactly that ....

Then why did you start off your participation in this thread with an argument that 40k is "good"?

What is the measure of a good ruleset if it isn't the number of people who pick it up and seemingly enjoy it?

I mean I like Infinity's active and reactive turns - its arguably a more elegant, and certainly more interactive system than 40k's.

At the same time though explaining that system to people who struggled with 40ks old to hit/to wound grid (or even the new to wound grid) is an utter nightmare.

Tyel wrote:
What is the measure of a good ruleset if it isn't the number of people who pick it up and seemingly enjoy it?

I don't know exactly, but number of players isn't it. How many people play a game depends on a lot of things unrelated to the rules. For example, would 40k be a popular game without its fluff or model quality? Would 40k have its dominant market share if GW's business practices hadn't pushed independent stores out of the market in favor of its own GW-only stores? Etc. It doesn't matter how perfect your rules are if people don't pick up your game because of those other factors. And a bad game like 40k can still have lots of players because, after accounting for those factors, it's either 40k or nothing at all.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If people had fun with FATAL and they are still having fun with FATAL, than it's a success, for them. I'm not going to consider it a success, because it's not, for me, but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong and bad for having fun with a game I'm not into.

Then we're going to have to disagree on this. If you're willing to call a game where you roll on multiple D100 tables to calculate the exact outcome of raping babies (an act encouraged by the game) "good" just because some really messed up person had fun with it then I honestly don't know what to say to you.

The whole point of my post is that you can't separate games into the "good" category and "bad" category, because where hobby games are concerned those aren't objectively measurable. So of course I'm not going to propose a system that does exactly that ....

Then why did you start off your participation in this thread with an argument that 40k is "good"?

For your first point: I said I'm not willing to call it a success (or call it good). But I will not spew vitriol about it to the people who do enjoy it. Furthermore, the game's moral content is an irrelevant strawman - unless your criticism of 40k surrounds morality, which is a discussion we can have (and imo is actually a better criticism than saying it's not fun), then sure. I will agree that FATAL is reprehensible, but I will also not go to a FATAL forum (or a hypothetical FATAL subforum) and spew vitriol. I'm just not that hateful.

And if you'll realize, part of that argument hinged upon people finding the game fun. What I hoped would happen was that the opposition would go over my argument, realize that the disconnect between my argument and their reality was that they don't find the game fun, realize that it's a subjective matter, and therefore understand that their critique is subjective and therefore not worth spewing vitriol over.

Clearly, that was too much of a hope.


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 Peregrine wrote:

Tyel wrote:
What is the measure of a good ruleset if it isn't the number of people who pick it up and seemingly enjoy it?

I don't know exactly, but number of players isn't it. How many people play a game depends on a lot of things unrelated to the rules. For example, would 40k be a popular game without its fluff or model quality? Would 40k have its dominant market share if GW's business practices hadn't pushed independent stores out of the market in favor of its own GW-only stores? Etc. It doesn't matter how perfect your rules are if people don't pick up your game because of those other factors. And a bad game like 40k can still have lots of players because, after accounting for those factors, it's either 40k or nothing at all.

This argument rings a little hollow when other games are demonstrably out there. The day of "40k or bust" is long gone except in a few very depopulated areas - most cities and towns have clubs and groups that play other games.

 Peregrine wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
It most just really rub them the wrong way when GT's are selling out in 48 hours what they used to never be able to achieve.

Not really. GTs sold out in the past, and tournament 40k adds significant changes to the game GW publishes. If anything this is a concession that there is demand for a better game that GW is not meeting.

That stores can barely keep product stocked

That's funny, because I see plenty of product on store shelves. If there's any global shortage it's because GW is making small production runs out of fear of having excess product in the warehouse, a statement of low confidence in their own products. But that's not a huge problem, inventory is still going out. If your local store's shelves are empty perhaps it is because your local store is in financial trouble and can't afford to buy more inventory?

Is the game terrible? Nope the proof is in how well its selling and how tournaments are filling up like no other previous edition

By that standard McDonalds is a good restaurant because it sells a ton. And 8th edition isn't selling all that well. GW as a whole is doing better than the worst days of 7th edition, but we don't have individual sales numbers for their various products and their overall revenue isn't exceeding the levels they were already at before the worst days of 7th and AoS threatened to kill the company.

So let me get this straight? GTs selling out at a faster pace means that people hate 8th and want a better game...... Yeah sorry that has to be the worst logic ive ever heard "hold up guys ITC has bottom lvl ruins block LOS people must hate 8th"
Every store in the DFW area is having a hard time staying stocked. The Citadel launch was wiped out of tons of stuff after 2 days only basic troops were left and mostly for armies without codexes just last weekend
McDonald's is a great fast food restaurant, Its impossible to argue that they aren't. If McDonald's made bad tasting food they wouldn't be in business. Obviously, they aren't a 5 star restaurant.... but once again they aren't trying to be. This is a terrible analogy though think of something better next time.

I've seen more posts from Peregrine than any other poster on here, and yet I've literally never seen a positive Peregrine post even once. No hyperbole. It's not just 40k - it's everything. Part of me wonders why the forum hasn't gotten rid of him, the other part wonders why he even still wants to be here - how someone can spend as much time as he does being angry on the internet is beyond me. Its the number one reason I spend less time on this forum, it's not just enough for some people that they don't like the hobby and game, we can't even say something positive about the game anywhere on this forum about the game without a bunch of people needing to attack you about how objectively wrong you are about this.

There's having a contrary opinion, and then there is actively logging in somewhere to hate. Other forums get rid of this sort of posting, it sucks that this one doesn't but hey it's why I can only do Dakka in small doses.

As annoying as he is I'm pretty sure turning the thread into a Peregrine hate thread is going to get it closed. Just set his posts to Ignore and carry on with your life.

 Sim-Life wrote:
As annoying as he is I'm pretty sure turning the thread into a Peregrine hate thread is going to get it closed. Just set his posts to Ignore and carry on with your life.

Eh he's just the prominent example of the toxic attitude that a few very vocal people have. Setting someone to ignore doesn't change anything, believe me I tried,, in fact it makes it worse because the comments and arguments it starts still happen, and youre left with a difficult understanding of what the hell is happening in a thread.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We are probably also very invested in the hobby and wish it to be good.

I didn't buy 50.000+ points of 40k miniatures because I hated the game and the company, I bought them because I love the game, but in its current form it is not an enjoyable use of my time.

It's pretty insulting to tell me I only bought them so I could whine about something.

Nail. On. Head.

To repeat an oft-used quote from a certain article to puts it more succinctly than I can-

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

Now sub in "40k" or "GW" there where appropriate.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We are probably also very invested in the hobby and wish it to be good.

I didn't buy 50.000+ points of 40k miniatures because I hated the game and the company, I bought them because I love the game, but in its current form it is not an enjoyable use of my time.

It's pretty insulting to tell me I only bought them so I could whine about something.

Nail. On. Head.

To repeat an oft-used quote from a certain article to puts it more succinctly than I can-

Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.

Now sub in "40k" or "GW" there where appropriate.

The problem with this is that things change.

Just because my mother liked me more as a baby doesn't mean she can spew hateful vitriol in the hopes that it will turn me back into a baby. I'm different than I was, and I've moved out, sorry mom.

Replace "40k" or "player" where appropriate.

"Hateful Vitriol".

IOW- "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it."

Again, if something changes souch that it's no longer what said person that invested 50,000 point of models into, does their frustration no longer become valid?

Personally I despise people that rage on people who bring up lagitamit issues with the game then are told go piss up a rope.

Yes things change, but when it changes to a point it's no longer what the old guard players got into the hobby for, the people cring haters need to remember the hobby as it is now would not be here if not for those old guard that kept the game going.

 Grimtuff wrote:
"Hateful Vitriol".

IOW- "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it."

Do you deny that there is an unreasonable amount of anger/negativity in 40k general from people that don't enjoy the game as it is?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
"Hateful Vitriol".

IOW- "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it."

Do you deny that there is an unreasonable amount of anger/negativity in 40k general from people that don't enjoy the game as it is?

Again it depends on what is being brought up.

Things like primaris from a lore point are a reasonable thing to be mad about.

Removal of things like armor facing, and targeting are reasonable things to be upset about.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again, if something changes souch that it's no longer what said person that invested 50,000 point of models into, does their frustration no longer become valid?

Personally I despise people that rage on people who bring up lagitamit issues with the game then are told go piss up a rope.

Yes things change, but when it changes to a point it's no longer what the old guard players got into the hobby for, the people cring haters need to remember the hobby as it is now would not be here if not for those old guard that kept the game going.

Their frustration is not invalid. But they shouldn't insult / endeavor to degrade the game for other people, if it's more popular now than it was. A more popular game is making more people happier, and attempting to damage/destroy other people's enjoyment of it simply out of frustration is unproductive.


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 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
"Hateful Vitriol".

IOW- "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it."

Do you deny that there is an unreasonable amount of anger/negativity in 40k general from people that don't enjoy the game as it is?

Again it depends on what is being brought up.

Things like primaris from a lore point are a reasonable thing to be mad about.

Removal of things like armor facing, and targeting are reasonable things to be upset about.

No they're not really reasonable to complain about, because you don't even have to obey them.

You can still play 7th edition, if you and your friends like it, which has no primaris and still has armour facings and targeting. If you don't have friends who like it, then you shouldn't ruin their fun they're having with 8th just because of spite.

But your the problem, your saying their frustration is not valid, their frustration is very valid, because the hobby they enjoyed is no longer what it is and all the new players are telling them to gak off.

So now because I likes the old game, I'm apparently the bad guy, because. Not a fan of 8th because or a lot of dumb choices I'm now being told I'm a gakker? No feth that. Sorry I have an oppinion that's whared with old guard.

8th got a lot right and fixed a lot, but it also broke a lot of stuff that did not need to be touched and charge a lot for the sake of change and "simplicity"

 Backspacehacker wrote:
But your the problem, your saying their frustration is not valid, their frustration is very valid, because the hobby they enjoyed is no longer what it is and all the new players are telling them to gak off.

So now because I likes the old game, I'm apparently the bad guy, because. Not a fan of 8th because or a lot of dumb choices I'm now being told I'm a gakker? No feth that. Sorry I have an oppinion that's whared with old guard.

8th got a lot right and fixed a lot, but it also broke a lot of stuff that did not need to be touched and charge a lot for the sake of change and "simplicity"

What? No, I said their frustration was "not invalid" = it's a litotes. It means your frustration is valid.

And you're not being called a gakker - unless you tell other people they shouldn't enjoy 8th. That's who my comments are directed to: people who say that 8th ruined the game and anyone who enjoys it is bad/ruining the game/shouldn't play/whatever.

It's alright to be mad. It's not alright to try to ruin everyone else's fun because of your mad-ness.

People who go outta their way to ruin someone's fun, even if it is with 8th are dicks yes.

But saying I don't like things happening in 8th don't make them a bad person or deserve the ire or others.

Like me.i play 8th every week because I like 40k wnd like the game, but that does not stop me from voicing my opinion on my distain for the lack of armor facing, the marry sue or primarisaries, the stupidity of Los and targeting of 8th, the stupidity of the amount of random wounds in the game like random shots and then random damage, the boringness of spells now. I still play the game and I still let others enjoy. But I'll be damned if I'm told my frustration is not valid in a hobby I have invested years and thousands of dollars on.


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That's the issue anyone who brings any negative oppinions of things in 8th are instally labed as haters because they don't blindly agree with everything GW does. Most of the people who do that are new gamera who game in on 8th so of course people are going to say 8th is ruining the game because it's being in a crowd of people who only see old guard as salty veta because they never experienced other versions of the game.

 Backspacehacker wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's the issue anyone who brings any negative oppinions of things in 8th are instally labed as haters because they don't blindly agree with everything GW does. Most of the people who do that are new gamera who game in on 8th so of course people are going to say 8th is ruining the game because it's being in a crowd of people who only see old guard as salty veta because they never experienced other versions of the game.

Yup, I guarantee I've been lumped in with the "Haterz" due to my comments here (and probably elsewhere).

If I hated GW I would have left a long time ago during the gak periods of 6th and 7th. No, I stuck it out and watched from the sidelines as the game was doubled down with stupid rules and dumb decisions. 8th on the surface turned this around for me as I got the reboot from the ground up I felt the game sorely needed. If I hated GW I just bought a Death Guard army specifically for 8th for gits and shiggles, right?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
People who go outta their way to ruin someone's fun, even if it is with 8th are dicks yes.

But saying I don't like things happening in 8th don't make them a bad person or deserve the ire or others.

Like me.i play 8th every week because I like 40k wnd like the game, but that does not stop me from voicing my opinion on my distain for the lack of armor facing, the marry sue or primarisaries, the stupidity of Los and targeting of 8th, the stupidity of the amount of random wounds in the game like random shots and then random damage, the boringness of spells now. I still play the game and I still let others enjoy. But I'll be damned if I'm told my frustration is not valid in a hobby I have invested years and thousands of dollars on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's the issue anyone who brings any negative oppinions of things in 8th are instally labed as haters because they don't blindly agree with everything GW does. Most of the people who do that are new gamera who game in on 8th so of course people are going to say 8th is ruining the game because it's being in a crowd of people who only see old guard as salty veta because they never experienced other versions of the game.

Alright, yes, I generally agree with you.

I've played since the end of 2nd (really learned the rules and began to play in 3rd; was too young for 2nd really). I have plenty of issues with 8th, though they are different from your issues. I hate 8th Edition's lethality - things should never ever "make their points back in a turn" because then you end up with a 2000 point army "making its points back" and tabling another 2000 point army in one turn. That's a dumb metric and design philosophy, and is why I despise the Shadowsword. Furthermore, I think 8th Edition's terrain rules are garbage, and would like to see them improved, though I do think they're passable enough to play a game with if you have reasonable opponents. I'm a bit sick of all the re-rolls but I get why they are necessary.

I actually don't miss armor facings that much. If they have facings for tanks, they should have facings for everyone else, and then the game gets complicated. Why an Exocrine with a fixed forward-firing gun has literally infinitely better dexterity than a Vindicator with a fixed forward firing gun I will never know, so this is one solution. The other is to give everything else facings, which would cause people to have brain aneurysms I suspect.

There are definitely valid criticisms. And if that's all you deliver, that's fine, and you're welcome to it. But if you tell people they're bad for enjoying the game, or that they're bad for wanting the game the way it is, or that the game itself deserves ire somehow, then that's unreasonable.

I agree on lithality things die way to fast.

But really the problem is as I said you have people who have only known 8th, and blindly follow it like it's infalable and rip on anyone that says anything bad. This how ever is magnafied so much in 8th because GW finally figured out how to market and is pulling in WAY more people now. So this massive influx of new Warhammer players are just for a lack of a better word, entitled, think negative opinions are horrible. It's not the old guard ruining the game, it's a he new crowd that can't accept things is 8th are busted and worked before.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I agree on lithality things die way to fast.

But really the problem is as I said you have people who have only known 8th, and blindly follow it like it's infalable and rip on anyone that says anything bad. This how ever is magnafied so much in 8th because GW finally figured out how to market and is pulling in WAY more people now. So this massive influx of new Warhammer players are just for a lack of a better word, entitled, think negative opinions are horrible. It's not the old guard ruining the game, it's a he new crowd that can't accept things is 8th are busted and worked before.

I'm really not sure things worked before, is the problem.

5th was my favorite edition till 8th, but things hardly "worked." Alpha striking was just as much king, close-combat got hit with a truck after 4th (it went from amazing to useless), deep striking and all-reserve shenanigans were typical... generally, at least in 8th, I feel like I see fluffy armies that behave fluffily instead of poorly-disguised gimmick lists.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I agree on lithality things die way to fast.

But really the problem is as I said you have people who have only known 8th, and blindly follow it like it's infalable and rip on anyone that says anything bad. This how ever is magnafied so much in 8th because GW finally figured out how to market and is pulling in WAY more people now. So this massive influx of new Warhammer players are just for a lack of a better word, entitled, think negative opinions are horrible. It's not the old guard ruining the game, it's a he new crowd that can't accept things is 8th are busted and worked before.

I'm really not sure things worked before, is the problem.

5th was my favorite edition till 8th, but things hardly "worked." Alpha striking was just as much king, close-combat got hit with a truck after 4th (it went from amazing to useless), deep striking and all-reserve shenanigans were typical... generally, at least in 8th, I feel like I see fluffy armies that behave fluffily instead of poorly-disguised gimmick lists.

Oh in no way do I think old eds were prefect each ahd their flaw. Imo 5th could have been the best Ed if they fixed the undying rino issues and buffed melee.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oh in no way do I think old eds were prefect each ahd their flaw. Imo 5th could have been the best Ed if they fixed the undying rino issues and buffed melee.

Yes, but I think "fixing the underlying rhino (by which I assume you mean vehicle) issue" isn't easily done - nor is buffing melee.

The problem is you can't make vehicles easier to kill, because gun tanks were already atrocious in 5th, since Crew Stunned meant they couldn't shoot at all. Vehicles weren't actually that great - just transports.

8th is just another attempt to iterate improvements, and imho, it has improved, because I find it more fun. I considered armour facings on vehicles a weakness of the 40k rule-set, not a strength, since facing didn't matter for anything else (so it just made the vehicle rules feel artificial and disconnected), and the targeting restrictions to be nonsense. Tanks in WWI literally engaged multiple targets - they even have guns pointing backwards! Why could units only engage a single target in 5ed? That's fixed with 8th.

Things 8th broke, for me, are mostly limited to issues which just juggling the numbers can largely fix. I don't have any specific problem with IGOUGO - I am not sure 40k is that well suited to it, but it's lower down on my list of things to fix beneath table size and lethality.

I like how this thread has shifted into how persecuted people who criticize GW are. No one 8n the community would ever allow a player to criticize GW!

For me the reason I like vehicle facing is it forces you and your opponant to move more tactically. I find it really annoying that a Shadow sword can sit on it's board edge all game and shoot anything. Facings allowed you to at least move out of LoS and force thing to move. Unlike now, volcano cannon outta my.bavk track.

Imo 8th finally got vehicles right, aisde from facings. Transports how ever really need to be fixed. Forcing you to unload before your movement makes transports only use to not get the unit inside shot turn on. It now twkes two turns to effectively use a transport to actually transport units.

And multi targeting/split fire another good thing 8th brought.

One thing 8th does I think was bad and clearly has shown, is garunteed deep strike and being able to charge out of it. That has proven to be very potant and I was calling it day one.

I'm also not a fan of how boring spells are now. Psyker phase is one of the most boring phases now, 7th was dumb, but 8th is a bore.

Personally I liked the old wounding system better, it really was not that hard to remember.

Another thing I'm not a fan of, the amount of - you can stack to hit, if they just capped it at -2 to hit can't get any better that would help a lot.

Terminators are another problem, that's more personal because I have a deathwing army but they still suck ass.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I agree on lithality things die way to fast.

But really the problem is as I said you have people who have only known 8th, and blindly follow it like it's infalable and rip on anyone that says anything bad. This how ever is magnafied so much in 8th because GW finally figured out how to market and is pulling in WAY more people now. So this massive influx of new Warhammer players are just for a lack of a better word, entitled, think negative opinions are horrible. It's not the old guard ruining the game, it's a he new crowd that can't accept things is 8th are busted and worked before.

For me its a matter of degrees. its like the whole debate about "oh, but Casual At All Costs players who gang up on competitive players and force them to leave the group because they win too much are just as bad as Win At All Cost players who list tailor and bend rules and specifically seek out newbies who they think will be easy opponents so they can win!"

I see a lot of 40k players come and go. We have about 50-60 irregular members where I play, and 25-30 regulars that are there nearly every week.

Yes, in theory, a person or a small clique of people who vocally spend all day bashing anyone who voices any complaint about 8th, who sneer and ridicule anyone who liked anything about the game before and who just wish "the oldies" would go away WOULD be just as bad as a person or a clique of people who whine and moan about anything that's different from "when 40k was good" (usually whatever year they started playing) and drive people away by their constant extremely loud moping and woe-is-meing.

but guess which category of people I've never actually seen in real life, and which category I could easily rattle you off a dozen people from who show up and either play and give someone a terrible game or don't even bother playing and just wander from table to table shaking their head and saying "oh, I can't even BELIEVE that's what an army looks like now, that looks so broken, is THAT what a space marine looks like now, I'm thinking about ebaying my army..."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
For me the reason I like vehicle facing is it forces you and your opponant to move more tactically. I find it really annoying that a Shadow sword can sit on it's board edge all game and shoot anything. Facings allowed you to at least move out of LoS and force thing to move. Unlike now, volcano cannon outta my.bavk track.

Imo 8th finally got vehicles right, aisde from facings. Transports how ever really need to be fixed. Forcing you to unload before your movement makes transports only use to not get the unit inside shot turn on. It now twkes two turns to effectively use a transport to actually transport units.

And multi targeting/split fire another good thing 8th brought.

One thing 8th does I think was bad and clearly has shown, is garunteed deep strike and being able to charge out of it. That has proven to be very potant and I was calling it day one.

I'm also not a fan of how boring spells are now. Psyker phase is one of the most boring phases now, 7th was dumb, but 8th is a bore.

Personally I liked the old wounding system better, it really was not that hard to remember.

Another thing I'm not a fan of, the amount of - you can stack to hit, if they just capped it at -2 to hit can't get any better that would help a lot.

Terminators are another problem, that's more personal because I have a deathwing army but they still suck ass.

^^^

Basically imagine this, but in the form of a couple dudes shuffling around to each game table in turn and slowly saying each line in a sad, dejected tone of voice with his hands in his pockets, talking to the air space between the two players