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Fluff aside, purely in game terms and rules, only those with faction keyword "<Chapter>" can be made into a specific chapter unless otherwise noted.

Chapter "Minotaurs" is distinctively different from "<Chapter>". While units with "<Chapter>" keyword can be made to use "Minotaurs" chapter tactics, but units with "Minotaurs" keyword cannot be made into any other chapter as it is a fixed faction keyword.

You may run your "Minotaurs" model range as a count-as "Blood Angels", but you cannot run your "Minotaur" chapter with "Blood Angels" chapter tactics.

There are several canon Blood Angels successors from various sources (e.g., Black Library novels, previous codices, etc.) not listed in the codex. It is by no means an exhaustive list.

 skchsan wrote:
Fluff aside, purely in game terms and rules, only those with faction keyword "<Chapter>" can be made into a specific chapter unless otherwise noted.

Chapter "Minotaurs" is distinctively different from "<Chapter>". While units with "<Chapter>" keyword can be made to use "Minotaurs" chapter tactics, but units with "Minotaurs" keyword cannot be made into any other chapter as it is a fixed faction keyword.

You may run your "Minotaurs" model range as a count-as "Blood Angels", but you cannot run your "Minotaur" chapter with "Blood Angels" chapter tactics.

If FW hadn't meant for you to be able to take Minotaurs as counting as Blood Angels, they would have given them an exception in their FAQ answer:


Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

 doctortom wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Fluff aside, purely in game terms and rules, only those with faction keyword "<Chapter>" can be made into a specific chapter unless otherwise noted.

Chapter "Minotaurs" is distinctively different from "<Chapter>". While units with "<Chapter>" keyword can be made to use "Minotaurs" chapter tactics, but units with "Minotaurs" keyword cannot be made into any other chapter as it is a fixed faction keyword.

You may run your "Minotaurs" model range as a count-as "Blood Angels", but you cannot run your "Minotaur" chapter with "Blood Angels" chapter tactics.

If FW hadn't meant for you to be able to take Minotaurs as counting as Blood Angels, they would have given them an exception in their FAQ answer:


Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

Again, faction keyword (henceforth FK) "<CHAPTER>" can be replaced by FK "MINOTAURS" unless specifically prohibited.

However, FK "MINOTAURS" cannot be replaced with FK "<CHAPTER>", which you then replace with FK "BLOOD ANGELS".

The FAQ tells you he FK "<CHAPTER>" can be replaced with oher SM chapters. It does not, grant you permission to replace a fixed FK with flex FK.

So, as i understand it, the general consensus is...

1. The Minotaurs are a chapter from the cursed founding with UNKNOWN progenitors. They are incredibly aggressive and answer to no one save the high lords of Terra.

2. The vanilla marine codex says any chapter with UNKNOWN origins MAY use ANY of the chapter tactics listed in the book (just replacing the parent chapter name with the new/homebrew chapter), i just dont get characters/stratagems/relics for said original chapter (makes sense)

3. The Blood Angels codex says the literal same thing, only specfying that BA gets replaced by the new name.

So is the argument that ANY chapter with UNKNOWN lineage MUST use the vanilla codex only, and only known BA successors may use BA tactics? Because if thats the case, then no homebrew chapters can ever use the BA tactics. The argument, the way i see it, is "theres no fluff ANYWHERE that definitively states Minotaurs are BA successors, so they cant have BA tactics". If thats the case, then the same argument could be said about Minotaurs having BT, Salamander, or WS traits. Its either exclusive to the point that no successors/homebrews can use traits, or inclusive that anyone with questionable genealogy can use any available tactics. Sorry if that all over the place, contending with twin 2 year olds and dinner lol

 Mhoppe10 wrote:
3. The Blood Angels codex says the literal same thing, only specfying that BA gets replaced by the new name.

This is where you are totally incorrect. The Blood Angels codex does not copy the rules from the Vanilla codex.

If a unit is drawn from a Blood Angels successor Chapter, simply substitute the ‘BLOOD ANGELS’ keyword on the datasheet with the name of your Blood Angels successor Chapter.
[...]
Note, however, that you cannot do this for named characters[...]

The Minotaurs are not established in the fluff as a Blood Angels successor Chapter, thus may not use the Blood Angels rules. Is it stupid that GW expects us to refer to the fluff for a rule? Yes, but it is how it is.

But they also arent established as ANY OTHER successor chapter, which was my point. The argument saying they cant be blood angels successors is the same argument i can make saying they arent UM successors

You can also put it this way, the Forgeworld Index came out at the same time as the Index Imperium 1.

If I remember correctly, Index Imperium 1 says for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves to replace their <Chapter> key word with either <Bloold Angels>, <Dark Angels>, <Grey Knights>, <Deathwatch>, or <Space Wolves> depending on what army you play.

Going forward to Codex Blood Angels, can anyone point out where any Blood Angel dtatsheet actually hase the Keyword <Chapter> printed on it. I’m pretty sure it says Blood Angels.

Since Codex Blood Angels does not actually have a <Chapter> keyword, clearly you cannot make a <Minotaur> keyword unit a Blood Angel.

You could however say that you are painted as Minotaurs, call yourself a Minotaur, and take your Minotaur named characters. But the second you try to in a <Blood Angels> Detachment, then you will never get your benefit of being either.

It is easier to take them with Codex Space Marines as they were intended because Codex Space Marines actually has a fill in the blank <Chapter> keyword, which Codex Blood Angels does not.

Ok, i feel like ive misconstrued all this keyword BS. All i want is Moloc, Hecaton, and a bunch of termies. Hecaton and Moloc have the Minotaur keyword, no one is arguing that. With them leading a battalion, with 3 term and 3 tac squads, how do i go about making the codex units (the terms and tacs) Minotaurs? Then, once they are presumably minotaurs, how do i go about giving them tactics, from either the vanilla or BA codex? If i give them the minotaur keyword (so moloc can buff them), do i subsuquently have to change that keyword to something else for the traits? This is where im getting hung up. I have 5 other regular marine (and deathwatch) armies, but none of them have FW stuff and none of them are a problem. I can only assume its something im missing or misunderstanding on my end making all this....difficult. Yall might have to spell it out step by step for me lol

If I understand your dilemma correctly...As an unknown you just choose from the main SM book which tactic you like. You also get to use their stratagem. You do not get to use their named characters or relics (but yes to generic marines). Note I do not have any of the FW stuff so may be off on this

 Mhoppe10 wrote:
So, as i understand it, the general consensus is...

1. The Minotaurs are a chapter from the cursed founding with UNKNOWN progenitors. They are incredibly aggressive and answer to no one save the high lords of Terra.

2. The vanilla marine codex says any chapter with UNKNOWN origins MAY use ANY of the chapter tactics listed in the book (just replacing the parent chapter name with the new/homebrew chapter), i just dont get characters/stratagems/relics for said original chapter (makes sense)

3. The Blood Angels codex says the literal same thing, only specfying that BA gets replaced by the new name.

So is the argument that ANY chapter with UNKNOWN lineage MUST use the vanilla codex only, and only known BA successors may use BA tactics? Because if thats the case, then no homebrew chapters can ever use the BA tactics. The argument, the way i see it, is "theres no fluff ANYWHERE that definitively states Minotaurs are BA successors, so they cant have BA tactics". If thats the case, then the same argument could be said about Minotaurs having BT, Salamander, or WS traits. Its either exclusive to the point that no successors/homebrews can use traits, or inclusive that anyone with questionable genealogy can use any available tactics. Sorry if that all over the place, contending with twin 2 year olds and dinner lol

From what I can tell:
In order to use the Minotaurs unique characters from forgeworld, you would need to use the MINOTAURS keyword.
However, to use the blood angel tactics/models/etc. Then you need to use the BLOOD ANGELS keyword.
Obviously you can't have units which possess two <CHAPTER> keywords in your army, so you cannot have Minotaurs characters with BA chapter tactics, as they are locked in with <MINOTAURS>.
Finally, successor chapters that do not have their own rules may use that of their founding chapter - Minotaurs don't get this because they have their own models etc. Provided by forgeworld.
However, nothing isn't stopping you from running a blood angels army where all the models are painted bronze (like the Minotaurs) because there isn't anything in the rules to say your colour scheme needs to match the chapter tactics being used.

Tl:dr it's the special characters/unique models that throw a monkey wrench in your idea. Anything with the chapter keyword preselected cannot change it, and therefore cannot be used as part of a different chapter to the one already on the data sheet

 hippyjr wrote:

 Mhoppe10 wrote:
So, as i understand it, the general consensus is...

1. The Minotaurs are a chapter from the cursed founding with UNKNOWN progenitors. They are incredibly aggressive and answer to no one save the high lords of Terra.

2. The vanilla marine codex says any chapter with UNKNOWN origins MAY use ANY of the chapter tactics listed in the book (just replacing the parent chapter name with the new/homebrew chapter), i just dont get characters/stratagems/relics for said original chapter (makes sense)

3. The Blood Angels codex says the literal same thing, only specfying that BA gets replaced by the new name.

So is the argument that ANY chapter with UNKNOWN lineage MUST use the vanilla codex only, and only known BA successors may use BA tactics? Because if thats the case, then no homebrew chapters can ever use the BA tactics. The argument, the way i see it, is "theres no fluff ANYWHERE that definitively states Minotaurs are BA successors, so they cant have BA tactics". If thats the case, then the same argument could be said about Minotaurs having BT, Salamander, or WS traits. Its either exclusive to the point that no successors/homebrews can use traits, or inclusive that anyone with questionable genealogy can use any available tactics. Sorry if that all over the place, contending with twin 2 year olds and dinner lol

From what I can tell:
In order to use the Minotaurs unique characters from forgeworld, you would need to use the MINOTAURS keyword.
However, to use the blood angel tactics/models/etc. Then you need to use the BLOOD ANGELS keyword.
Obviously you can't have units which possess two <CHAPTER> keywords in your army, so you cannot have Minotaurs characters with BA chapter tactics, as they are locked in with <MINOTAURS>.
Finally, successor chapters that do not have their own rules may use that of their founding chapter - Minotaurs don't get this because they have their own models etc. Provided by forgeworld.
However, nothing isn't stopping you from running a blood angels army where all the models are painted bronze (like the Minotaurs) because there isn't nothing I need the rules to say your colour scheme needs to match the chapter tactics being used.

TLR it's the special characters/unique models that throw a monkey wrench in your idea. Anything with the chapter keyword preselected cannot change it, and therefore cannot be used as part of a different chapter to the one already on the data sheet

Seconding this post.

So if BA are out, and Minotaurs dont get their own tactics or the tactics of their parent chapter, why all the push to use the vanilla book? Wouldnt it be the exact same scenario? I take moloc and friends, all already with the Minotaur keyword, and a bunch of vanilla units. How do i get chapter tactics then? I dont know why im having such a hard time understanding this, i must be missing something simple


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if keywords from FW models cant be changed (makes sense), does that mean the lamenters character cant use BA tactics? Can Lias Issadon use RG tactics for his Raptors or are they S.O.L. too?

The main thing is that Forgeworld obviously wrote their Indexes in a vaccuum compared to everything else thatbwould be coming out later. They must have thought to update these Indexes more often than they have.

But to run an actual <Minotaurs> Army using the Named Characters from Forgeworld, you would have to use Codex Space Marines. At that point you can fill in the open <Chapter> keyword with <Minotaurs> and then have a detachment legal list that gives you a chapter tactic.

Then since the <Minotaurs> don’t have a chapter tactic in Codex Space Marines, you will choose which Chapter tactic of those listed in that codex to use to represent your army. This will give you the Chapter tactic! BUT will not give you the associating Strategem of the Chapter becuase those are locked to a specfic <Chapter> keyword. Also the same for the relics.

For example. Say you decide to play with the Black Templars Chapter tactic, but your keyword is <Minotaurs>, you will not be able to use the Black Templar Strategem that allows you to stop a psychic power on a 4+ roll. Or if you are playing with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic but have your keyword as <Minotaurs>, you will not have acess to the Axe of Medusa relic because it says for an “Iron Hands Character with a power axe.”

I hope this helps untangle the situation.

It does, at least to my sleep deprived brain it does lol. Thanks everyone for all the input.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh one last thing. Will the BT chapter tactic apply to moloc and hecaton as well?

 Longshadow7 wrote:
You can also put it this way, the Forgeworld Index came out at the same time as the Index Imperium 1.

If I remember correctly, Index Imperium 1 says for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves to replace their <Chapter> key word with either <Bloold Angels>, <Dark Angels>, <Grey Knights>, <Deathwatch>, or <Space Wolves> depending on what army you play.

Going forward to Codex Blood Angels, can anyone point out where any Blood Angel dtatsheet actually hase the Keyword <Chapter> printed on it. I’m pretty sure it says Blood Angels.

Since Codex Blood Angels does not actually have a <Chapter> keyword, clearly you cannot make a <Minotaur> keyword unit a Blood Angel.

You could however say that you are painted as Minotaurs, call yourself a Minotaur, and take your Minotaur named characters. But the second you try to in a <Blood Angels> Detachment, then you will never get your benefit of being either.

It is easier to take them with Codex Space Marines as they were intended because Codex Space Marines actually has a fill in the blank <Chapter> keyword, which Codex Blood Angels does not.

It has a different way of handling successors though, whereby you swap BLOOD ANGELS for their Chapter name, so this logic doesn’t quite work.

Yeah, you can replace Blood Angels with Successor Name keyword, It is not like with Space Wolves and Deathwatch which have unchangeable keyword.

 Mhoppe10 wrote:
does that mean the lamenters character cant use BA tactics? Can Lias Issadon use RG tactics for his Raptors or are they S.O.L. too?

IIRC someone got DQ'd from a major event using a Lamenters' character and a BA relic in the same detachment.

 Longshadow7 wrote:


Then since the <Minotaurs> don’t have a chapter tactic in Codex Space Marines, you will choose which Chapter tactic of those listed in that codex to use to represent your army. This will give you the Chapter tactic! BUT will not give you the associating Strategem of the Chapter becuase those are locked to a specfic <Chapter> keyword. Also the same for the relics.

Space Marines Page 196 (first page of stratagems) actually says you do get to use the stratagem. Correct about Relics and Warlord traits however.