US & NA Politics Thread

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**d-usa**

One of my former inmates was in federal prison for hiring undocumented workers and paying them under the table, resulting in just over half a million in unpaid payroll taxes (taxes, that’s how the feds always get you). He and his wife managed this business together and were equally guilty and both sentenced to a couple years in prison. They had children as well. He was allowed to basically serve pre-prison probation to stay at home with the kids, and then was allowed to self surrender after his wife served her sentence and was released and now able to take care of the kids.

**Frazzled**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Harder for those who are not citizens, yes.

As someone who works for Social Security, let me tell you: the same issues that we run into getting everyone an SS card? They mean that this WILL make it harder for actual citizens to vote too. And also, those same issues? They also mean that it would actually make it easier for non-citizens to vote.

Just understand folks, I'm opposed to the idea of a national ID card because I've seen the gak we run into at SSA, where we spend millions on investigations, and bust a lot of bad guys, true, but before it gets to that point, a lot of people lose everything, even if we are absolutely on the ball. The fraud records alone are a pile of filing cabinets that cover an area the size of an Olympic swimming pool and are stacked 20 feet high. As my boss said on the first day: 'I want you to think of how many people's lives being ruined this pile represents.'

I hesitate to imagine what can be done with a 'citizenship card'.

All citizens have a Social Security Card.
You cannot write a check, make a major payment, or even enter many government offices without ID.
I am fully behind making it easy to get said ID. Any post office, DMV, police station, or grocery store/department store which meets minimal criteria should be able to issue one, free of charge to the citizen.

If I have to have government approved ID to avail myself of my Second Amendment rights, then voters should have to have ID to vote to elect people who could change those rights.

**A Town Called Malus**

Frazzled wrote:
Tannhauser42 wrote:
The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.

Please cite evidence to support the statement.

How many laws requiring ID to vote have also included provisions for the free distribution of voter IDs to everyone on the electoral roll?

**Ustrello**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Tannhauser42 wrote:
The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.

Please cite evidence to support the statement.

How many laws requiring ID to vote have also included provisions for the free distribution of voter IDs to everyone on the electoral roll?

As if frazz would ever listen to this argument since I've seen it happen at least half a dozen times and he always wheels out the same tired and blatantly false responses every time

**Frazzled**

Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are not getting the whole story. (edited by Frazzled)

**Ustrello**

Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.

Or just ignore the dozens of similar stories that follow this same path that have occurred since trump became president

**Grey Templar**

Frazzled wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Harder for those who are not citizens, yes.

As someone who works for Social Security, let me tell you: the same issues that we run into getting everyone an SS card? They mean that this WILL make it harder for actual citizens to vote too. And also, those same issues? They also mean that it would actually make it easier for non-citizens to vote.

Just understand folks, I'm opposed to the idea of a national ID card because I've seen the gak we run into at SSA, where we spend millions on investigations, and bust a lot of bad guys, true, but before it gets to that point, a lot of people lose everything, even if we are absolutely on the ball. The fraud records alone are a pile of filing cabinets that cover an area the size of an Olympic swimming pool and are stacked 20 feet high. As my boss said on the first day: 'I want you to think of how many people's lives being ruined this pile represents.'

I hesitate to imagine what can be done with a 'citizenship card'.

All citizens have a Social Security Card.
You cannot write a check, make a major payment, or even enter many government offices without ID.
I am fully behind making it easy to get said ID. Any post office, DMV, police station, or grocery store/department store which meets minimal criteria should be able to issue one, free of charge to the citizen.

If I have to have government approved ID to avail myself of my Second Amendment rights, then voters should have to have ID to vote to elect people who could change those rights.

Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.

**A Town Called Malus**

Grey Templar wrote:

Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.

Okay, you now need ID to practice free speech. You need ID to be safe from cruel and unusual punishments. You need ID to prevent an unreasonable search and seizure. You need ID to get a fair trial. You need ID to not have excessive bail forced upon you. And so on.

The idea that all rights need equal rules is ridiculous.

**Vaktathi**

On a note about SS cards, SS numbers were not originally intended to have any sort of ID or verification purposes beyond trackimg of benefits, they were not developed to be an ID but ended up being one out of convenience, and at this point have been so badly compromised that their value as such is extremely suspect, no serious security professional is going to consider an SSN or card to be worth squat for such purposes, and if you're a working age US adult with any credit history, your SSN is already compromised and available for sale.

**Spinner**

Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.

Why?

**Grey Templar**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.

Okay, you now need ID to practice free speech. You need ID to be safe from cruel and unusual punishments. You need ID to prevent an unreasonable search and seizure. You need ID to get a fair trial. You need ID to not have excessive bail forced upon you. And so on.

The idea that all rights need equal rules is ridiculous.

It’s not rediculous at all. If all rights don’t have equal rules then they arent rights, they become privileges at that point. Double standards are bad.

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.

**Ustrello**

Grey Templar wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.

Okay, you now need ID to practice free speech. You need ID to be safe from cruel and unusual punishments. You need ID to prevent an unreasonable search and seizure. You need ID to get a fair trial. You need ID to not have excessive bail forced upon you. And so on.

The idea that all rights need equal rules is ridiculous.

It’s not rediculous at all. If all rights don’t have equal rules then they arent rights, they become privileges at that point. Double standards are bad.

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.

So we need to have IDs for each one of the rights granted to us? Better start revving up those id searches on preachers and churches then

**Frazzled**

Spinner wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.

Why?

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.
EDIT. On re-read I am being harsh, I don't doubt our fellow Dakkaite, but the employee. Let me re-edit that.

**A Town Called Malus**

Grey Templar wrote:

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.

You can certainly have tiers of rights. Any time rights interact, they are organised into tiers. You have the right of free speech, but people also have the right to not be slandered which trumps your right to free speech.

**Spinner**

Frazzled wrote:
Spinner wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.

Why?

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.

What about the story seems unbelievable to you? There was a 60 Minutes report about a restaurant owner being deported after 20 years in the country. ICE detained and tried to deport a Dreamer with a young family, claiming he was part of a gang because he had a tattoo with the name of his birthplace. They're putting children in camps and refusing to allow more than brief glimpses of what's happening inside.

The story seems entirely in keeping with this administration's attitude toward immigration, legal and otherwise. Doesn't matter whether it's coming from E or from the woman who worked for him.

**Ustrello**

Spinner wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Spinner wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.

Why?

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.

What about the story seems unbelievable to you? There was a 60 Minutes report about a restaurant owner being deported after 20 years in the country. ICE detained and tried to deport a Dreamer with a young family, claiming he was part of a gang because he had a tattoo with the name of his birthplace. They're putting children in camps and refusing to allow more than brief glimpses of what's happening inside.

The story seems entirely in keeping with this administration's attitude toward immigration, legal and otherwise. Doesn't matter whether it's coming from E or from the woman who worked for him.

It's because it doesn't fit the narrative that the GOP and Fox news have been pushing about illegal immigrants for the better part of a decade

**BaronIveagh**

Frazzled wrote:

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.
EDIT. On re-read I am being harsh, I don't doubt our fellow Dakkaite, but the employee. Let me re-edit that.

Frazz, it's more common then you seem to think. A doctor in Michigan was hustled off after living here as a legal refugee alien for IIRC 50 years, because he had done something stupid as a kid.

And you still have not addressed ICE taking legal immigrants kids off them too. It's just not an illegal alien thing here anymore.

Or are you waiting for Trump to put YOUR kids in a camp so to try and force Congress to bend a knee to the new King of America.

In your own state of Texas at least one judge was caught by the press using children to get people to plead guilty to crimes. How'd you like it if they locked up your son, and told you to plead guilty or he would just disappear?

**d-usa**

I’m trying to square the fact that the same person arguing for the total and absolute equality of all rights to require papers to exist at all is also the same person arguing that giving innocent people the death penalty is acceptable as long as enough guilty people also die and it serves as a deterrent.

So there is no point trying to bring any kind of logical argument to an argument where logic never existed to begin with.

**Vaktathi**

Fundamentally, the voter ID thing is a solution to a problem that does not exist. There is no evidence that widespread voter fraud exists. There is no evidence that voter fraud has shifted any election.

The major push for voter ID laws comes from a slice of the political spectrum that is fighting against changing demographics and that has lost the popular vote but won the EC both time it has gained the presidency in the last generation. There is little mystery behind the push for such laws, those in power pushing them arent exactly subtle, again, witness Kobach's journey.

**Frazzled**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.
EDIT. On re-read I am being harsh, I don't doubt our fellow Dakkaite, but the employee. Let me re-edit that.

Frazz, it's more common then you seem to think. A doctor in Michigan was hustled off after living here as a legal refugee alien for IIRC 50 years, because he had done something stupid as a kid.

And you still have not addressed ICE taking legal immigrants kids off them too. It's just not an illegal alien thing here anymore.

Or are you waiting for Trump to put YOUR kids in a camp so to try and force Congress to bend a knee to the new King of America.

In your own state of Texas at least one judge was caught by the press using children to get people to plead guilty to crimes. How'd you like it if they locked up your son, and told you to plead guilty or he would just disappear?

I think you forgot my earlier post on this. I will restate:
To the topic.

Saw the Ministry of Propaganda's interview with Our Leader. While I agree with the positions, they literally have nothing to do with the immigration system now splitting kids.

Look I have a stickie note. That should take care of an immigration bill. What's the damn deal?
1. If you are here now, you are added to the list of people on the citizen track.

2. Budget for border control X500%.

3. H1Bs revamped for real need.

I'm out. (Drops Mike)

For an easy translation:
*His arguments on needing control on illegal immigration I generally agree with.
*BUT that has nothing to do with separating the children. Thats not conscionable to me. Further, I its so unconscionable I support impeachment on this ALONE.
*The issue of immigration reform. Its simple. See above. I fixed it. (picks up mike and drop kicks it into the audience). I need to send my bill to the government.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
I’m trying to square the fact that the same person arguing for the total and absolute equality of all rights to require papers to exist at all is also the same person arguing that giving innocent people the death penalty is acceptable as long as enough guilty people also die and it serves as a deterrent.

So there is no point trying to bring any kind of logical argument to an argument where logic never existed to begin with.

Who the feth are you talking about?

**Ouze**

He's referring to a horrible argument GT made, not referring to you.

**Easy E**

Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are not getting the whole story. (edited by Frazzled)

I know right! Cool story Bro!

The great thing is.... I don't care if you believe it or not. I know what I am going to do to try and stop this story from being repeated to anyone in my community and Nation.

Edit: I also have no doubt, that my employee and friend does not necessarily know or understand all the intricacies of her case, since she is not an immigration lawyer. Plus, I did not pesonally accompany her on every step of the process, so there is some bit of telephone involved. That being said, that is the understanding I have of the current situation. Can anyone point me to some compelling reason why I should not believe it?

**reds8n**

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1009105863473319936

BREAKING: U.S. plans to announce withdrawal from U.N. Human Rights Council on Tuesday - source

how does it go again..

The essential ingredient of politics is timing

**Ouze**

I'm not sure how to feel about that.

On the one hand, leaving the council because they rightfully called the US out for a horrible policy seems gakky.

On the other hand, how much value did a human rights council that includes China, Saudia Arabia, and Venezuela really have?

**Frazzled**

Ouze wrote:
He's referring to a horrible argument GT made, not referring to you.

Cool. My horrible arguments are indeed horrible, but different.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Easy E wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.

I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are not getting the whole story. (edited by Frazzled)

I know right! Cool story Bro!

The great thing is.... I don't care if you believe it or not. I know what I am going to do to try and stop this story from being repeated to anyone in my community and Nation.

Edit: I also have no doubt, that my employee and friend does not necessarily know or understand all the intricacies of her case, since she is not an immigration lawyer. Plus, I did not pesonally accompany her on every step of the process, so there is some bit of telephone involved. That being said, that is the understanding I have of the current situation. Can anyone point me to some compelling reason why I should not believe it?

Because its illegal.

Having said that, my defense is only based on that. As a Bill of Rights advocate, my distrust of the government by its nature demands that I note worse things have happened, so it is possible, and there's nothing about the current administration that I defend without proof.

**Steelmage99**

Ouze wrote:
I'm not sure how to feel about that.

On the one hand, leaving the council because they rightfully called the US out for a horrible policy seems gakky.

On the other hand, how much value did a human rights council that includes China, Saudia Arabia, and Venezuela really have?

"Because it isn't perfect, it should go away in it's entirety!"

"What?....no, I have nothing to replace it with. We'll look at that later."

Brings up memories of the horribly inane ACA rhetoric.

**WrentheFaceless**

Ironic the timing of leaving the human rights council with the border debacle going on.

**TheMeanDM**

As I said on my personal fb account:

How are we to be a beacon for all that is good and right in the world when we purposefully and intentionally surrender our place in history as a just and moral leader in the free world?

I never dreamed of a day when we would abandon the noble vision of human rights and equality for all peoples, but I fear that with the withdrawal of the US from the Human Rights Council we have turned a dream into a nightmare and snuffed out a sorely needed light in this darkening world. The repercussions of this ill conceived action will, I fear, trigger more pain and suffering in a world that already sees far too much of each.

**Ustrello**

While I do believe leaving is a bad thing, especially given the extreme anti-Israeli bias and hypocrisy of the HR council we need to be there. But at the same time we have left before and in recent memory

**d-usa**

Well, there were plenty of times we could have left to make a point rather than looking like we are just taking our ball and going home because someone was mean to us.