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Reminder that Rule One is Be Polite. I will be suspending access to the Off Topic sub forum to posters who keep breaking rules in the US Politics thread.

Thanks!

 KTG17 wrote:

What is your impression of what is going on? That the parents are thrown in prison and the kids are thrown out on to the curb?

There is no particular oversight of children of imprisoned parents. The family is on its own.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You could expand on that argument and widen it to how everyone is terrible and were all going to hell. No, there is a difference even if you don't like Obama.

I don't think that the difference is one that matters.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

Cages are cages.but I guess that was ok. You know, Obama.

 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

Few things, TPP was meant to collar China in regards to trade, Trump ended that idea in favor of a harmful trade war for his own voters. You can talk to NK without whatever that dog and pony show was supposed to be. Pissing off allies is a bad idea because said allies have been helping promote the US's self interest around the world. The US has enjoyed riding on the back of the world and Trump seems to forget that. Everything you listed Trump is basically doing more harm than good for the US.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

Cages are cages.but I guess that was ok. You know, Obama.

Ah ok, so if we narrow it down to the dictionary definition you can make the argument that its equal, bravo! Who cares about context right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You could expand on that argument and widen it to how everyone is terrible and were all going to hell. No, there is a difference even if you don't like Obama.

I don't think that the difference is one that matters.

Because you haven't heard of the concept of normative and soft power? There is a significant difference, regardless of how you wish to personally view it.

 d-usa wrote:
Remember that time PETA took dogs from people? It really was no different than all the times dogs wandering alone were put in a shelter. Totally the same, nothing to see.

Remember when grabbed a bunch of dogs and then killed them?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.

So, you admit then that taking the children of people who DIDN'T break that law is wrong then? Because that's also an effect of this policy. People in favor of this seem to have this weird delusion that every kid they're grabbing is from someone who committed a crime. And in other fun, at least one Immigration Court judge has already been using the seizure of their children to force people who may or may not have committed a crime to plead guilty if they want to see their kids again.

So, before you open your mouth and tell us all how great it is, please be sure to remove your foot from your mouth before speaking.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending either of those things and I think that a Judge that does things like that should be on the short-track to disbarment.

Just to clarify: they are not real judges, the families don’t have any access to the judicial branch, this is all just administrative procedures not actually legal procedures.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

Few things, TPP was meant to collar China in regards to trade, Trump ended that idea in favor of a harmful trade war for his own voters. You can talk to NK without whatever that dog and pony show was supposed to be. Pissing off allies is a bad idea because said allies have been helping promote the US's self interest around the world. The US has enjoyed riding on the back of the world and Trump seems to forget that. Everything you listed Trump is basically doing more harm than good for the US.

Canada and the EU and whatever aren't necessarily all that useful to the US, though. Taking a strictly US-centric view it is likely better to to be an American in a diminished and isolated empire than one that does the military work for the rest of the West, regardless of whether it benefits the US directly or not. Well, better to be the kind of American who makes these sorts of choices, anyway.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I think that a Judge that does things like that should be on the short-track to disbarment.

The list of Immigration Judges who have been disbarred for... questionable behavior and illegal dealings is rather long. Even compared to other legal professions. This is partially due to not actually being part of the Judicial Branch, but rather an arm of the Executive.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
[]So you do not support the Trump administration's actions, or you do and what I said is true. Let us know which.

The answer to this is a bit nuanced and not exactly a "yes or no". Ordering less leniency when it comes to catch and release does have it's ups and downs. Do I feel that more effort should be made to keep families together? Yes, I do. I feel that at least a good faith effort to keep them in the same facility should be made when possible, even if they aren't in the same "cell" in that facility. However, this is sometimes not possible when you consider space, age, gender, and other conditions and complications.

Temporary separation for medical and psychological evaluations are okay (measured in hours, not days)


If a parent has shown signs of drug use, gang activity, hostility, or has a warrant out for another crime or there are signs of child neglect or abuse, I'm totally fine with separating them. I think even you would agree with this.


If the parent crossed into the US, and in doing so put the child at great chance of physical harm (some desert crossings have a 10% chance of death for adults, let alone children), I'd possibly consider it okay to separate them.

So you DON'T support what the administration is doing? Because what you described is not the same as what they are doing.

I don't support the actions they are taking, no. I do feel that they are using the children as pawns and that's wrong. That being said, if the child falls into one of the previously mentions categories, it's likely best to separate them for their own safety.

That being said, I do support a stronger enforcement of the law. If people crossing the border illegally have children and are arrested, the children are along for the ride. The temporary detainment of the children is pretty unavoidable at that point. I think there needs to be A LOT more emphasis on the "temporary" part though.

I believe there should be more housing for mothers/fathers with young children to be housed together (kind of mini-dorm rooms). If the Alien has relatives or trusted friends that can take the child, I think that would be a decent option too. If they agree to expediated repatriation to their own country I think they should be reunited (or never separate) with their children and immediate escorted back home.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

Few things, TPP was meant to collar China in regards to trade, Trump ended that idea in favor of a harmful trade war for his own voters. You can talk to NK without whatever that dog and pony show was supposed to be. Pissing off allies is a bad idea because said allies have been helping promote the US's self interest around the world. The US has enjoyed riding on the back of the world and Trump seems to forget that. Everything you listed Trump is basically doing more harm than good for the US.

Canada and the EU and whatever aren't necessarily all that useful to the US, though. Taking a strictly US-centric view it is likely better to to be an American in a diminished and isolated empire than one that does the military work for the rest of the West, regardless of whether it benefits the US directly or not. Well, better to be the kind of American who makes these sorts of choices, anyway.

No, that is a woefully misinformed view on history. The US's European, Asian and South American allies have enabled decades of US hegemony and the construction of an economic system extremely beneficial to the US. The US's allies give it a power far beyond what it would have alone, but people only look at the military and ignore everything else. The US military is actively making the US money, it might not be clear to see, but the entire financial system and many of the international rules we have today are build on the backbone of that military. Leaving a vacuum would be detrimental to US economic and political interests.

 d-usa wrote:
Remember that time PETA took dogs from people? It really was no different than all the times dogs wandering alone were put in a shelter. Totally the same, nothing to see.

Probably better than where they came from still. Brazil for example has something of nasty reputation of the government using street kids for target practice.

I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.

 Easy E wrote:
I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.

I can get behind this notion. I like the idea of some of our posters being complicit in this. I've already had a sitdown today with my senator.

 Easy E wrote:
I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:

We're talking about illegal immigrants crossing the border, correct?

No. That's the problem. There's a little fine print to this: What they've been doing is just taking the kids of people like asylum seekers, and taking their kids too, even those that followed all the laws regarding their entry. Illegals are the biggest group having their kids taken, but not the ONLY one. What's going on is that under Zero Tolerance they're assuming that all asylum applications are fraudulent. This has already led to lawsuits over this, which are ongoing.

Do you have citation for that?

If you're going to the border entry, or other port of entries (ie, US consulate, airports, etc...) and claim asylum, then no laws are broken. Are you saying in this scenario, every kid is being separated?

I think there's a awful lot of conflation between those who legally follow the law vs those who illegally enter the country and then claim asylum when caught.

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?

You can prosecute them without family separations. Three other presidents have figured that out.

 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it.

Nobody does. Nobody is stepping up to offer practical solutions however and what Trump is doing isn't helping.

Illegal immigration is a reality, and being dicks to people isnt going to stop it.

NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change.

You want change, but why? Over what exactly? Do you understand these relationships?

Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them.

Nobody is upset that Trump is talking with NK. They are upset that Trump is treating Kim like an ally in person and admiring reprehensible aspects of his regime and seemingly offering up concessions over nothing and parading around a statement of intent as a solution...

And the previous months of directly taunting the dynamite monkey and awkwardly pulling out of the talks before rejoining didnt help.

Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river.

"Riding our back"? Your views of world history are...rather skewed, and more to the point, from a Realpolitik standpoint, we are the great current world empire and these are our allies and clients, pissing them off is generally not conducive to maintaining that status.

I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

For someone whos been running around with a Trump forum avatar, if youd never payed attention to Bannon before, you werent paying much attention...the dude literally ran a media outlet that was his personal political platform...

A couple of years ago, all the landscaping and tree service crews I noticed around my neighborhood looked like they had a lot of illegals in their crews, if not completely made up of illegals. Today? All red-blooded American from what I can tell. What does that mean? More Americans working. I like that. No, I love that.

Umm...how would you know? Are you in the business of asking the gardner for their papers? What exactly is a "red blooded american"?

I mean, unless you're engaging in some sort physical profiling, not sure how youd come to such a judgement.

More broadly speaking, overall employment figures note immigrants are a larger part of labor force than ever.

Is Trump a pig? Sure. I don't care. Didn't stop some hot women from sleeping with him left and right.

I suspect that there's very little Trump could do that you would care about.

Let's not forget our beloved Bill Clinton was sticking cigar's up Monica's cha-cha while discussing peace in the middle east on the phone with Arafat.

Nobody has forgotten what Clinton did, but that was also a generation ago, and was consensual, unlike many of the accusations against Trump.

I could care less. He's a liar you say? Find me one politician that isn't.

There's a difference between normal politician speak, and a daily deluge of direct and unrepentant lies. More to the point, theyre not even good at it.

They all sell their souls long before they move up the political ladder. I have never looked at a president as the guy to steer my moral compass. He is there to make sure the economy is doing well and to defend this country. Beyond that, you are making him out to be more than what he is.

Engaging in trade wars, tanking nuclear agreements, personally attacking allies, and threatening nuclear war are usually poor routes to the things you appear to value here.

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.

Context matters. We dont take peoples kids away for committing misdemeanor crimes. When we do take them away, there has to be a reason beyond that, and, more to the point, there are systems in place to reunite those families.

Such is not the case with the border separations. Also, people seeking asylum are being actively turned away from ports of entry, theyre not being given the option to enter legally.

** I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right. I am not racist, sexist, or anything else liberals like to use on Trump supporters. And I didn't even vote for the guy. But just about everyone in my family did. So yes, I resent that label of 'basket of deplorables'.

Well, your statements here dont seem to be doing anything to dispell that. You're post has been one long chain of excuses for literally anything Trump does, or statements about how much you dont care.

Its astonishing to me that many of the servicemen and women who are defending America's interest around the world are thrown into that basket too.

in what way? Beyond some idiots tumblr.

And then you have Bill Maher hoping for a recession so Trump loses? Of course he does, cause he know Trump will win re-election because the democrats haven't a single candidate to lead them. All liberals can do is hope Trump fails. Which is absolutely crazy and damn near treasonous to me.

This was point blank the role of the GOP during the entire Obama administration, like...openly. They werent subtle about it.

The last thing I want to see is Americans lose their jobs, families to suffer, etc, so my choice of candidate can take office.

Your post thus far would appear to indicate otherwise...

In fact, there appears to be a lot of "as long as it pisses off the liberals, i dont care".

So all those who bash the right and Trump should spend some time checking out what is coming from the left. Its pretty poisonous too.

Some of it absolutely is. However by and large these are fringe opinions, Maher for instance holds no office and is not a member of the Democratic party, and is actually pretty all over the map politically, usually describing himself as a small "l" libertarian. You dont see Schumer out there rooting for America to fail just to spite Trump.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?

The economy is not that great, we have rampant drug and substance abuse problems and a very complex rising set of social and racial problems. We have students in possession of record debt, and a man child for a president praising violent dictators and waging trade wars with both allies and enemies alike all the while both parties sit and gawk, unsure of what to do or how to proceed on anything. We have a massively broken healthcare system, and most people are not seeing monetary increases in their salaries, even though the upperclass are seeing their record stocks.

Other than that everything is great!

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.

I can get behind this notion. I like the idea of some of our posters being complicit in this. I've already had a sitdown today with my senator.

It's been awhile since anyone I voted for won an election.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

This is a view on how things started in 1933 in a certain country. It's definitely worth a read as a comparison to todays events.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1008724417470521344.html

Oh for the love of God, you know the thread has jumped the shark when someone whips out the Nazi parallels. Disingenuous at best.

Are you sure? The problem here is that folks jump to the last stage and think there are no parallels because it isn't like what the Nazi's did. The problem being is that it didn't start as it ended. It started with what a lot of people thought was OK, that people were criminalised for relatively minor infractions. If you compare what was happening in earlier 1930's history in Germany to what is happening here, there are unhappy parallels.
Humans looking for a better life are being criminalised for effectively entering the country because there is an opposition to "immigration". They are then being interred in temporary camps, children separated from families etc until something more permanent can be set up. There is no inevitability that things will end in the same way, but the methods being employed are similar but never will be identical.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?

I can't argue this with you because I don't know anything about it. I don't know what these detention centers are like, how the people are treated and what the eventual conclusion is. I can only be responsible for what I do, not what everyone else does.

 Togusa wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?

The economy is not that great, we have rampant drug and substance abuse problems and a very complex rising set of social and racial problems. We have students in possession of record debt, and a man child for a president praising violent dictators and waging trade wars with both allies and enemies alike all the while both parties sit and gawk, unsure of what to do or how to proceed on anything. We have a massively broken healthcare system, and most people are not seeing monetary increases in their salaries, even though the upperclass are seeing their record stocks.

Other than that everything is great!

Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say? Well, besides Trump trying to undermine it with his hobby of the week.

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants (edit: I in no way, shape or form want to imply that Togusa said immigrants caused this). They have been playing for a long time now. Some of these issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?

 Togusa wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?

I can't argue this with you because I don't know anything about it. I don't know what these detention centers are like, how the people are treated and what the eventual conclusion is. I can only be responsible for what I do, not what everyone else does.

I agree. So are you asking your Representative/Senator to stop the seperations?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?

The economy is not that great, we have rampant drug and substance abuse problems and a very complex rising set of social and racial problems. We have students in possession of record debt, and a man child for a president praising violent dictators and waging trade wars with both allies and enemies alike all the while both parties sit and gawk, unsure of what to do or how to proceed on anything. We have a massively broken healthcare system, and most people are not seeing monetary increases in their salaries, even though the upperclass are seeing their record stocks.

Other than that everything is great!

Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say?

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants. These issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?

I did not claim they were caused by immigrants. I said they were problems our nation faces.

The job numbers are what you say. I still have seen no relief in my family, or my communities lives. We're still limping along as are 99% of people I personally know. If it changes 1-2 years down the road, great! But for now, I am still struggling to get buy as much as I was in December of 2014, March of 2015 and June of 2016, as well as December 2017.

The issues that I mention cannot be solved by money. We've been throwing money at problems and waging "wars on things" for decades with little to show.

Drugs: Can't be fixed until we recognize that abuse is a medical issue and that these people belong in a hospital and not a prison.

We've more or less been at war for the last 70 some odd years in this country, moving from nation to nation sucking up resources and leaving only death in our wake.

Our politicians are corrupted and our population is lazy, devoid of the basic ability to reason. They don't even vote!

Racial issues will not be solved by money, these issues cannot be solved by a government. It is up to the society as a whole to correct these attitudes. Governments can put more restrictions and training on police and local agencies, but that won't do anything to control the skin head that lives down the street and works at the local mill.

Student debt issues were caused by government intrusion into the higher education system and the garuntee of FAFSA loans. ( I can provide more on this if you like as it is related to my actual job, and I am a victim of this issue as well personally.)

Healthcare also cannot be solely changed by throwing money at the problem. The society and the insurance groups have just as much influence and power as the actual government agencies and laws that police health in the US.

Also, I stated what I have heard from supporters of the presidents policy for the children. I did not state that I agreed with it, or supported it.

Also: I believe the heavy handed response now is designed to draw attention away from other high profile stories related to the president. It's calculated tail wagging to take attention away from Stormy Daniels, North Korea's Human Rights Violations and the Iranian Nuclear deal as well as the trade war.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.

A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.

Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?

I can't argue this with you because I don't know anything about it. I don't know what these detention centers are like, how the people are treated and what the eventual conclusion is. I can only be responsible for what I do, not what everyone else does.

I agree. So are you asking your Representative/Senator to stop the seperations?

No. I will not speak with them until I understand the basic aspects of the issue.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

 Togusa wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say?

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants. These issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?

I did not claim they were caused by immigrants. I said they were problems our nation faces. Nice try.

The job numbers are what you say. I still have seen no relief in my family, or my communities lives. We're still limping along as are 99% of people I personally know. If it changes 1-2 years down the road, great! But for now, I am still struggling to get buy as much as I was in December of 2014, March of 2015 and June of 2016, as well as December 2017.

The issues that I mention cannot be solved by money. We've been throwing money at problems and waging "wars on things" for decades with little to show.

Drugs: Can't be fixed until we recognize that abuse is a medical issue and that these people belong in a hospital and not a prison.

We've more or less been at war for the last 70 some odd years in this country, moving from nation to nation sucking up resources and leaving only death in our wake.

Our politicians are corrupted and our population is lazy, devoid of the basic ability to reason. They don't even vote!

Racial issues will not be solved by money, these issues cannot be solved by a government. It is up to the society as a whole to correct these attitudes. Governments can put more restrictions and training on police and local agencies, but that won't do anything to control the skin head that lives down the street and works at the local mill.

Student debt issues were caused by government intrusion into the higher education system and the garuntee of FAFSA loans. ( I can provide more on this if you like as it is related to my actual job, and I am a victim of this issue as well personally.)

Healthcare also cannot be solely changed by throwing money at the problem. The society and the insurance groups have just as much influence and power as the actual government agencies and laws that police health in the US.

Also, I stated what I have heard from supporters of the presidents policy for the children. I did not state that I agreed with it, or supported it.

Sorry, i did not mean to imply you said that. I'm just saying that the statement that the US "cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state" is simply not true, because all these problems existed when the US economy did a lot worse and there was a far larger influx of people crossing the border, with the US surviving just fine.

What you are describing is tragic, but the only reason that that is going the way it is is because of how business and society works. Whether people cross the border or not has no effect on anyone trying to solve the situation you and the people you know are in, its completely unrelated. If anything the bizarre focus on people crossing the border is diverting funds from places that could use it far more. You need structural solutions completely unrelated and unaffected by this.