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Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Prestor Jon wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The informal US empire is always better than the chaos a hegemonic transition brings. Especially as the US at least tries to pretend human rights and international law are important while the other contenders view it as an entirely optional Western construct.


Nah. We did better without being in continuous wars.


We've never not been in continuous wars.


Since 1991 we have been in conflict with someone, somewhere. There has never been a period in my kid's life where we weren't fighting somewhere. Thats insane.

Iraq,
Somalia,
Serbia,
Iraq II
Afghanistan
Iraq III.

special forces from here to Antarctica.


It goes back farther than 1991. You're omitting Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Libya, El Salvador, Lebanon, Bolivia and the Philippines just from the 1980s plus the Cold War. Again, you're yearning for some nonexistent past when the US wasn't actively conducting military operations on foreign soil that never existed.

It goes even further back. Even before 1940 the US was engaged in plenty of South American countries. If you include Native American Nations the entire history of the US has been one of non-isolation. It really is nonexistent as you say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
As a foreigner, you bear none of the burden, so whatevs Bro.

Lets see the EU do it. You can't even defend yourself from Russia.

None of the burden? The Dutch went to Iraq and Afghanistan with the US, even though we had no dog in this fight. Allied support is what helped the US become what it is today, regardless of military strength.

Also you do realize two (one in a few years) EU countries have nukes right? The idea that the US is the only one standing in the way is a bit silly. If the US leaves then its only natural that the European countries start shifting more budget towards defense. Europe had sizable armies during the Cold War, it wasn't always like this.


Cool, then Europe no longer needs the US umbrella. Self empowerment. go for it!

Sure, but when Europe starts making deals with Iran or China to the detriment of the US don't complain, as is happening now with Trump.

I'm all for a more independent and assertive Europe allied with the US.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 15:53:27


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Crazyterran wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.


You are not making a positive argument here...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Wolfblade wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Not surprising, really. As the US irresponsibly vacates its various positions on the world stage, other countries will move in. John Oliver did a good bit on China this week that ended with a commentary that China is ready and able to fill in for the US, and that we probably shouldn't be so eager to give them that chance.


John Oliver can screw himself. There is nothing more that I can't stand is someone from another country coming to our country and dictating how screwed up our society is while making millions of dollars in the process. Sort out the UK's problems first and then I'll appreciate what you have to say. Same with Trevor Noah. Trevor criticizes the South African elite for leaving South Africa to all its problems while doing the exact same thing. What a clown.


So, do you have any actual argument against John Oliver? Otherwise what you're claiming is similar to "you're not a doctor, you can't tell me you're hurt" when you clearly are spewing blood from a missing arm.


I don't think John Oliver is a bad guy and he can be entertaining but let's not pretend that his hot take multi media monologues are objective truth disseminations. Oliver is trying to make a point, usually an exaggerated and humorous one and he supports his commentary with information that is true but is also cherry picked for confirmation bias and entertainment value. It's like when the Daily Show covers presidential elections it's a completely different kind of coverage than NPR's coverage of the elections. Enjoy John Oliver for what he is, he's very good at it, but don't just accept whatever he says as the whole truth at face value.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.


You are not making a positive argument here...

Actually its a pretty good argument. The US set up the system to benefit itself the most. A consequence is that US allies also benefitted from said system and started supporting the US in spreading that system around the world. You help your allies by helping yourself the most, its a pretty good deal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:01:01


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
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Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.


You are not making a positive argument here...

Actually its a pretty good argument. The US set up the system to benefit itself the most. A consequence is that US allies also benefitted from said system and started supporting the US in spreading that system around the world. You help your allies by helping yourself the most, its a pretty good deal.


No its a pretty good deal for the wealthy.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The informal US empire is always better than the chaos a hegemonic transition brings. Especially as the US at least tries to pretend human rights and international law are important while the other contenders view it as an entirely optional Western construct.


Nah. We did better without being in continuous wars.


We've never not been in continuous wars.


Since 1991 we have been in conflict with someone, somewhere. There has never been a period in my kid's life where we weren't fighting somewhere. Thats insane.

Iraq,
Somalia,
Serbia,
Iraq II
Afghanistan
Iraq III.

special forces from here to Antarctica.


It goes back farther than 1991. You're omitting Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Columbia, Libya, El Salvador, Lebanon, Bolivia and the Philippines just from the 1980s plus the Cold War. Again, you're yearning for some nonexistent past when the US wasn't actively conducting military operations on foreign soil that never existed.

It goes even further back. Even before 1940 the US was engaged in plenty of South American countries. If you include Native American Nations the entire history of the US has been one of non-isolation. It really is nonexistent as you say.


Yes, it goes all the way back to before our War for Independence but I stuck to just the preceding decade before Frazz's 1991 cutoff because I could cite a pretty comprehensive list for the 1980s in one short post whereas listing over 2 centuries of conflicts would a much more time consuming undertaking.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Prestor Jon wrote:

I don't think John Oliver is a bad guy and he can be entertaining but let's not pretend that his hot take multi media monologues are objective truth disseminations. Oliver is trying to make a point, usually an exaggerated and humorous one and he supports his commentary with information that is true but is also cherry picked for confirmation bias and entertainment value. It's like when the Daily Show covers presidential elections it's a completely different kind of coverage than NPR's coverage of the elections. Enjoy John Oliver for what he is, he's very good at it, but don't just accept whatever he says as the whole truth at face value.

While overall the above is true in a sense, I think bringing it back around is that whatever Oliver's opinions on America are, they don't really affect episodes about China that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote:


Yes, it goes all the way back to before our War for Independence but I stuck to just the preceding decade before Frazz's 1991 cutoff because I could cite a pretty comprehensive list for the 1980s in one short post whereas listing over 2 centuries of conflicts would a much more time consuming undertaking.

I think Wikipedia might have a list to cover for you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.


You are not making a positive argument here...

Actually its a pretty good argument. The US set up the system to benefit itself the most. A consequence is that US allies also benefitted from said system and started supporting the US in spreading that system around the world. You help your allies by helping yourself the most, its a pretty good deal.


No its a pretty good deal for the wealthy.

You say this like the average American is still living in the 1930's Great Depression and hasn't move forward one inch.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:05:51


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well do you think China is going to be more benevolent towards its enemies.


*shrug*

The fact of the matter is that the US ruling the world isn't something I want because of the damage it's doing right here and now. Anti-imperialism is correct and the biggest empire is the US. That smaller powers also exist doesn't mean that it's wrong to want to be rid of the biggest one. You're just making excuses.
   
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Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I mean quite, besides war with China is avoidable. In the long term neither side really wants to have a conflict, which is why they keep inventing all kinds of ways around international law that avoid direct conflict with the US. If war would be inevitable, then retreating back to the Pacific Islands is no use as some in China dream of a Chinese Hawaii. Retreating is only going to make China bolder, and that boldness could cross into accidental recklessness and war you want to avoid.

And its not just the wealthy who have benefitted. Sure they have benefitted immensly more because of the way our system works. But the average US citizen has enjoyed a life style not attainable without the system set up after WW2.


No. We can avoid war by returning our forces home, eliminating military support treaties with every country on the planet, and returning to just being a commercial power.

The current system only benefits the wealthy who have given up any pretense of caring. Communism is dead. We did our part.

China was strong before the US existed, as did its hegemonic aspirations. It will be the same after the US.
Same for Russia.

No need for us to be involved any more. The people who think we should be are the wealthy who benefit from it. Theirs sons and daughters haven't been in a war since forever so there is no downside for them.


We have isolationists, anarchists, and wanna-be freikorps all over the place. The US feels more and more like the 1930's have been catching up with us.

Perhaps this is common after all big recessions?


I like how you aggregate people who don't want to be imperialists any more with analysts and Nazis.


I am just citing ideologues that went out of fashion in the 30's but have come back stronger than previous decades. I am not categorizing or making judgements on the merits of such ideas.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.


You are not making a positive argument here...

Actually its a pretty good argument. The US set up the system to benefit itself the most. A consequence is that US allies also benefitted from said system and started supporting the US in spreading that system around the world. You help your allies by helping yourself the most, its a pretty good deal.


No its a pretty good deal for the wealthy.


No Frazz it's a pretty good deal for everybody. Do you drive a car? Heat your home? Use electricity? Then you're affecting by energy production and prices which is a big driver of a lot of our foreign policy and military involvement in foreign countries. Yes, companies like Exxon Mobil benefit as well but oil executives aren't part of a secret cabal that calls up Congress and tells them where to send the troops. Our foreign policy is designed to benefit the US, benefit US energy production and by extension US energy companies. You're getting confused and asserting that the tail wags the dog instead of the other way around.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Rosebuddy wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well do you think China is going to be more benevolent towards its enemies.


*shrug*

The fact of the matter is that the US ruling the world isn't something I want because of the damage it's doing right here and now. Anti-imperialism is correct and the biggest empire is the US. That smaller powers also exist doesn't mean that it's wrong to want to be rid of the biggest one. You're just making excuses.

That's all fine, but reality dictates that once the US steps back a worse one will take over. You can call that an excuse, but that's just world politics. China is a 'smaller' power now, but in 20 to 30 years it will reach a level of decent parity with the US (on account of it being easier to catch up than to be a trailblazer tech wise (plus China stealing everything not digitally nailed down), no longer a 'smaller' power. Its already throwing its weight around against India, Vietnam, Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines, as well as starting to focus on others in the region. Getting rid off the US won't magically make the world a better place, no matter how much you want to believe that.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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6000 pts Disciples of Fate
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Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
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Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Rosebuddy wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Well do you think China is going to be more benevolent towards its enemies.


*shrug*

The fact of the matter is that the US ruling the world isn't something I want because of the damage it's doing right here and now. Anti-imperialism is correct and the biggest empire is the US. That smaller powers also exist doesn't mean that it's wrong to want to be rid of the biggest one. You're just making excuses.


There's always going to be a biggest power. As someone who isn't the hugest fan of the United States (especially after this whole Trump business started), I still understand that the United States is the lesser of the evils that could crop up.

The way the world works now is that there will never be just bunches of smaller powers. If it's not the USA, it will be China. If it's not China, it'll be Russia or the EU. Someone will always be the imperial power, for the rest of us it mostly depends on who will have the softer touch.

And the USA's touch is softer than China's or Russia's.

 warboss wrote:
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Frazzled wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
So, news coming from the detention centers is getting worse and worse from physical abuse to kids being force fed drugs


Whats cool is how none of this appeared during the Obama administration...


That's because routine separation of children wasn't a policy during the Obama administration. If it had been, all the ancillary bad stuff such as above would have happened, too, because that kind of stuff is inevitable in the US when you detain a lot of people.

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The Great State of Texas

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:

I don't think John Oliver is a bad guy and he can be entertaining but let's not pretend that his hot take multi media monologues are objective truth disseminations. Oliver is trying to make a point, usually an exaggerated and humorous one and he supports his commentary with information that is true but is also cherry picked for confirmation bias and entertainment value. It's like when the Daily Show covers presidential elections it's a completely different kind of coverage than NPR's coverage of the elections. Enjoy John Oliver for what he is, he's very good at it, but don't just accept whatever he says as the whole truth at face value.

While overall the above is true in a sense, I think bringing it back around is that whatever Oliver's opinions on America are, they don't really affect episodes about China that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote:


Yes, it goes all the way back to before our War for Independence but I stuck to just the preceding decade before Frazz's 1991 cutoff because I could cite a pretty comprehensive list for the 1980s in one short post whereas listing over 2 centuries of conflicts would a much more time consuming undertaking.

I think Wikipedia might have a list to cover for you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Yeah, the fact that there are carrier groups anywhere that water has salt and military bases on every continent pretty much means that the US can politely (or inpolitely) tell other people how it’s going to be. That is how the US has sustained such prosperity, even now it’s very prosperous. After all, pretty much everyone has food, water, internet and a phone.


Crazily, Canada, Europe, and Asia have the same without it.


Canada, Europe and parts of Asia have been riding on American Coat tails for years. Funnily enough, when the Americans, our biggest trading partner, tells all the peasants how it's going to be, America's allies benefit as well.


You are not making a positive argument here...

Actually its a pretty good argument. The US set up the system to benefit itself the most. A consequence is that US allies also benefitted from said system and started supporting the US in spreading that system around the world. You help your allies by helping yourself the most, its a pretty good deal.


No its a pretty good deal for the wealthy.

You say this like the average American is still living in the 1930's Great Depression and hasn't move forward one inch.


Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
So, news coming from the detention centers is getting worse and worse from physical abuse to kids being force fed drugs


Whats cool is how none of this appeared during the Obama administration...


That's because routine separation of children wasn't a policy during the Obama administration. If it had been, all the ancillary bad stuff such as above would have happened, too, because that kind of stuff is inevitable in the US when you detain a lot of people.


Children have been separated ever since there have been jails.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:15:13


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:

Children have been separated ever since there have been jails.

If you drag this statement to its inevitable absurd conclusion this is going to be a trainwreck of epic proportions covered in burning puppies...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:19:19


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP) 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.[/quote

Exactly. So the argument doesn't work.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






Prestor Jon wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Not surprising, really. As the US irresponsibly vacates its various positions on the world stage, other countries will move in. John Oliver did a good bit on China this week that ended with a commentary that China is ready and able to fill in for the US, and that we probably shouldn't be so eager to give them that chance.


John Oliver can screw himself. There is nothing more that I can't stand is someone from another country coming to our country and dictating how screwed up our society is while making millions of dollars in the process. Sort out the UK's problems first and then I'll appreciate what you have to say. Same with Trevor Noah. Trevor criticizes the South African elite for leaving South Africa to all its problems while doing the exact same thing. What a clown.


So, do you have any actual argument against John Oliver? Otherwise what you're claiming is similar to "you're not a doctor, you can't tell me you're hurt" when you clearly are spewing blood from a missing arm.


I don't think John Oliver is a bad guy and he can be entertaining but let's not pretend that his hot take multi media monologues are objective truth disseminations. Oliver is trying to make a point, usually an exaggerated and humorous one and he supports his commentary with information that is true but is also cherry picked for confirmation bias and entertainment value. It's like when the Daily Show covers presidential elections it's a completely different kind of coverage than NPR's coverage of the elections. Enjoy John Oliver for what he is, he's very good at it, but don't just accept whatever he says as the whole truth at face value.


That however is not his argument for dismissing him. His argument for dismissing him amounts to "he's not an american!" (despite having gone through the process to be an american).

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
So, news coming from the detention centers is getting worse and worse from physical abuse to kids being force fed drugs


Whats cool is how none of this appeared during the Obama administration...


That's because routine separation of children wasn't a policy during the Obama administration. If it had been, all the ancillary bad stuff such as above would have happened, too, because that kind of stuff is inevitable in the US when you detain a lot of people.


Children have been separated ever since there have been jails.


I was gonna have a serious reply, but I wanted to see how quickly and far you'd move the goal posts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:20:14


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bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:

Children have been separated ever since there have been jails.

If you drag this statement to its inevitable absurd conclusion this is going to be a trainwreck of epic proportions covered in burning puppies...


Its epic conclusion is that this is a ginned up topic, just like the media discovering we had homeless the day after Reagan was elected.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.


Exactly. So the argument doesn't work.

So you do agree the lives of US citizens have improved since the start of US Empire, great! Because a lot of the above mentioned was sponsored by that, especially getting rid of the mustache people.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
So, news coming from the detention centers is getting worse and worse from physical abuse to kids being force fed drugs


Whats cool is how none of this appeared during the Obama administration...


That's because routine separation of children wasn't a policy during the Obama administration. If it had been, all the ancillary bad stuff such as above would have happened, too, because that kind of stuff is inevitable in the US when you detain a lot of people.


Did the thousands of unaccompanied minors detained during the Obama administration suffer the same abuses and forced drug treatments that are currently happening? Not trying to deflect just honestly curious whether these abuses are SOP that are only coming to light because of the focus on the child separations versus additional new procedures drawn up to deal with the new policy of child separations. I can understand why drugging people in detention centers makes them easier to control and how such a morally and ethically reprehensible practice could be rationalized but since we've been detaining minors that are caught illegally crossing the border for decades that there should be an established SOP for detaining minors that either does or doesn't include drugging them into a catatonic state for the sake of convenience.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.


Exactly. So the argument doesn't work.

So you do agree the lives of US citizens have improved since the start of US Empire, great! Because a lot of the above mentioned was sponsored by that, especially getting rid of the mustache people.


The mustache people were a threat to you. That was 1945. The only powers that still exist from that war are the UK and the US. Its been THREE generations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:25:20


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Wolfblade wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Not surprising, really. As the US irresponsibly vacates its various positions on the world stage, other countries will move in. John Oliver did a good bit on China this week that ended with a commentary that China is ready and able to fill in for the US, and that we probably shouldn't be so eager to give them that chance.


John Oliver can screw himself. There is nothing more that I can't stand is someone from another country coming to our country and dictating how screwed up our society is while making millions of dollars in the process. Sort out the UK's problems first and then I'll appreciate what you have to say. Same with Trevor Noah. Trevor criticizes the South African elite for leaving South Africa to all its problems while doing the exact same thing. What a clown.


So, do you have any actual argument against John Oliver? Otherwise what you're claiming is similar to "you're not a doctor, you can't tell me you're hurt" when you clearly are spewing blood from a missing arm.


I don't think John Oliver is a bad guy and he can be entertaining but let's not pretend that his hot take multi media monologues are objective truth disseminations. Oliver is trying to make a point, usually an exaggerated and humorous one and he supports his commentary with information that is true but is also cherry picked for confirmation bias and entertainment value. It's like when the Daily Show covers presidential elections it's a completely different kind of coverage than NPR's coverage of the elections. Enjoy John Oliver for what he is, he's very good at it, but don't just accept whatever he says as the whole truth at face value.


That however is not his argument for dismissing him. His argument for dismissing him amounts to "he's not an american!" (despite having gone through the process to be an american).


True. I was just throwing my $0.02 in about John Oliver since he came up in the conversation.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Prestor Jon wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
So, news coming from the detention centers is getting worse and worse from physical abuse to kids being force fed drugs


Whats cool is how none of this appeared during the Obama administration...


That's because routine separation of children wasn't a policy during the Obama administration. If it had been, all the ancillary bad stuff such as above would have happened, too, because that kind of stuff is inevitable in the US when you detain a lot of people.


Did the thousands of unaccompanied minors detained during the Obama administration suffer the same abuses and forced drug treatments that are currently happening? Not trying to deflect just honestly curious whether these abuses are SOP that are only coming to light because of the focus on the child separations versus additional new procedures drawn up to deal with the new policy of child separations. I can understand why drugging people in detention centers makes them easier to control and how such a morally and ethically reprehensible practice could be rationalized but since we've been detaining minors that are caught illegally crossing the border for decades that there should be an established SOP for detaining minors that either does or doesn't include drugging them into a catatonic state for the sake of convenience.


Good luck getting the media to answer that question.

Elian Gonzalez was separated at gunpoint from his family.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.


Exactly. So the argument doesn't work.

So you do agree the lives of US citizens have improved since the start of US Empire, great! Because a lot of the above mentioned was sponsored by that, especially getting rid of the mustache people.


The mustache people were a threat to you. That was 1945. The only powers that still exist from that war are the UK and the US. Its been THREE generations.


So your argument is that we should stop adhering to the policies that have kept the mustache people away for 3 generations because they've been proven to be effective? America should never stop advocating and safeguarding American interests, that would clearly be a counter productive policy change.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Europe is stuck in the 1930s as well?

Not really, social welfare systems, limited borders and no murderous moustachioed figures and rampant nationalism, quite a bit friendlier and better.


Exactly. So the argument doesn't work.

So you do agree the lives of US citizens have improved since the start of US Empire, great! Because a lot of the above mentioned was sponsored by that, especially getting rid of the mustache people.


The mustache people were a threat to you. That was 1945. The only powers that still exist from that war are the UK and the US. Its been THREE generations.

You're missing the point. 45 kickstarted a golden age for the US economy and the population. Business profited the most but living standards improved a great deal. The problem is that technology has allowed business to shed the people that helped build them up. US hegemony allowed for that golden age, US political unwillingness to tackle wealth inequality led to the current situation. For business its still a great time thanks to Trump's tax cut, but that is Trump making the rich richer, not the world forcing that upon you. That isn't going to change once the US pulls back from the world, if anything the people who aren't rich might be more adversely affected, because they can't move money around like the rich can. The current US wealth level is tied up in its hegemonic position.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Frazzled wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
So, news coming from the detention centers is getting worse and worse from physical abuse to kids being force fed drugs


Whats cool is how none of this appeared during the Obama administration...


That's because routine separation of children wasn't a policy during the Obama administration. If it had been, all the ancillary bad stuff such as above would have happened, too, because that kind of stuff is inevitable in the US when you detain a lot of people.


Children have been separated ever since there have been jails.


Yes, of course. But please don't do the intentionally obtuse thing, and pretend I didn't write "routinely" in there. You're seeing more mistreatment of interned kids because there are thousands more of them.

It's like being lactose intolerant and saying "why do we have diarrhea all the time, now" when you're suddenly eating ice cream 3 times a day after a long time of rarely eating ice cream.

Prestor Jon wrote:
Did the thousands of unaccompanied minors detained during the Obama administration suffer the same abuses and forced drug treatments that are currently happening? Not trying to deflect just honestly curious whether these abuses are SOP that are only coming to light because of the focus on the child separations versus additional new procedures drawn up to deal with the new policy of child separations.


I think once you collect enough kids, you're going to start being forced to drug some of them, and some of them will be abused, regardless of who the president is. I think it's a reality of the way we do mass detainment in the US.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:36:24


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Welp, it has just come down that the Internet is no longer exempt from sales tax.

How this unfolds will be...interesting. Compliance is going to be almost impossible for many retailers. This may be the great economic gakstorm of our time.


Suuuuuuuuuuper glad I live in a state with no sales tax. Ill eat that income tax all day long, but wont have to worry about this

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:39:10


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






 Frazzled wrote:

Elian Gonzalez was separated at gunpoint from his family.


Indeed he was, which coincidentally also shocked the nation and sparked a media firestorm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:38:21


   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

The government in this case was also highly reluctant to take the kid and only did so when all other legal alternatives had been exhausted; and taking the kid was the right thing to do both morally and legally despite the bad optics.

Pointing to one kid (who was a foreign national ordered to be returned to his living family by numerous courts) being taken and using that to justify routinely and needlessly separating thousands of children from their living parents, like a child with down's syndrome or a baby feeding at the breast, is honestly stupid AF and I'm not even really going to deign to address that line of thought anymore. We can do better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 16:41:58


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
 
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