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That's the best fantasy translation of both sides I've read in these threads to date. Is your plan of resistance more on the level of Red Dawn or Independence Day?

text removed.

reds8n

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mrs. Esterhouse wrote:
I have no fear of the possibilty I’m wrong on some of the things I feel. Being wrong on Dakka isn’t something I’ll lose sleep over. I’ve made my feelings known. Alot of you disagree. Some appear to think I’m the problem. So be it. I’ll continue to take action in the ways I feel is best for myself and my country. Maybe I’m just the guy on the beach screaming at the approaching hurricane. An exercise in futility. But I’ll take that over compromise.

So do you actually have any evidence for your position to dispute the evidence that you are wrong, or just stubborn determination not to admit that you're doing something wrong?

And yea, I guess I’m an a-hole for not shedding tears over the children. I feel bad about it, but don’t tell me I’m somehow endorsing it because I’m voting third party.

I'll tell you that because it's the truth. You have three choices here:

1) Vote for the party putting children in cages.

2) Vote for the other party.

3) Stay home on election day (or vote third-party, which is exactly equivalent to staying home on election day) as a statement that you don't care enough to take even the most minimal action against putting children in cages.

Anything but a D vote is endorsement of Trump's policy of putting children in cages. If you're in agreement with that policy, fine, but don't pretend that your voting choices are anything but a passive endorsement of it.

I have no problem with anything that is happening at the boarder in regards to children or families. Unwanted alien invaders will not be treated well. The process will likely be scary - hopefully scary enough to the point they wont try to do it again...(they will try again). Lets get real here...no one is even getting hurt (and anyone that does - it's their fault). Call me an A-Hole but I really don't care - every single parent knows what they are getting into attempting to come here illegally. It is entirely on the criminal here.

"but the kids - they are crying"
Had a 2 kids crying in the new Jurassic park Movie I watched over the weekend. It ruined the whole experience for me. Anyways - sometimes kids cry even when they are at a movie about freaking dinosaurs. Kids cry...It's not the end of the world.

Also lets completely ignore the fact that Dems have done a complete 180 on illegal immigration and these policies were in place under Obama as well. AND trump has put some legislation into place to keep families together during the deportation process.

Are you aware that this automatic detention policy has been applied to families that attempted to enter the country by legal asylum means? Not all families effected by this new Trump admin policy are border-jumpers.

Then it's clearly not being implemented correctly. Why would families be incarcerated coming here legally?


It is evil to have a sovereign nation? Okay...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then it's clearly not being implemented correctly. Why would families be incarcerated coming here legally?

Because it's a policy intended as a means of ethnic cleansing.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I have no problem with anything that is happening at the boarder in regards to children or families. Unwanted alien invaders will not be treated well. The process will likely be scary - hopefully scary enough to the point they wont try to do it again...(they will try again). Lets get real here...no one is even getting hurt (and anyone that does - it's their fault). Call me an A-Hole but I really don't care - every single parent knows what they are getting into attempting to come here illegally. It is entirely on the criminal here.

"but the kids - they are crying"
Had a 2 kids crying in the new Jurassic park Movie I watched over the weekend. It ruined the whole experience for me. Anyways - sometimes kids cry even when they are at a movie about freaking dinosaurs. Kids cry...It's not the end of the world.

Also lets completely ignore the fact that Dems have done a complete 180 on illegal immigration and these policies were in place under Obama as well. AND trump has put some legislation into place to keep families together during the deportation process.

"Unwanted alien invaders", or legitimate asylum seekers from one of the most violence wracked places in the world? Asylum seeking is NOT illegal.

Apparently you cannot tell the difference between kids crying in a movie theatre and the trauma of being separated from your parents against your will and detained for weeks at a time. Do you have children? Would you be relaxed if someone took them from you for doing something which is your legal right? I must also ask, are you a Christian?

I'm an atheist. I control my emotions - they don't control me. Using "breaking up families" is just a crutch to gain emotional support from weak minded people.

Million of illegals cross the boarder each year. Some of them get caught...do you think it's a great smooth process for them? No - resources are limited. They do the best they can. Plus most of them who get caught and deported - come back again.

Do the "asylum seekers" (this isn't asylum seeking - that would be done by legal methods - these are by all means - trespassers) not bear any responsibility for putting their children in jeopardy? OFC not - they are victims here aren't they? No - I don't have children. It keeps me objective. Men/women/children - they are all the same to me. They are human beings responsible for their own actions (a child is a human being with their parents being responsible for their actions). The movie theater example was to draw attention to the fact that people don't give 2 cents for a crying baby in a movie theater - in fact they probably look at the parents with scorn. However when it's in a jail cell because their parents decided to trespass in a sovereign nation...now that is just criminal to treat those people badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then it's clearly not being implemented correctly. Why would families be incarcerated coming here legally?

Because it's a policy intended as a means of ethnic cleansing.

You can't be serious. The US is literally the most diverse nation on earth.

No. You may apply for asylum no matter how you have arrived in the US.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.

Crispy78 wrote:
No. You may apply for asylum no matter how you have arrived in the US.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.

Which doesn't work when people are prosecuting you, immediately, for illegally entering the country.

Wait, so pointing out that seperating families the way they do which inevitably ends up with kids being lost in the system is "just a crutch to gain emotional support from weak minded people"? You might just want to stop digging.

It isn't millions crossing the border each year, we're talking about a couple hundred thousand each year. The days it went over a million a year is long behind us. Also doing the best they can is just facetious, we have more than enough sources ITT to show that they aren't doing their best on purpose, its what this whole policy was designed for.

Again, as has been pointed out, they are doing this to people offering themselves up at legal points of entry too.

Still equating children crying from being forcefully seperated and that might never see their parents again with kids crying in a movie theater. And yes, it is criminal to treat them badly, hence the police not being allowed to beat up on suspects/convicts. But kuddos for being 'objective' about it in the face of facts, reason, human rights and basic empathy.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'm an atheist. I control my emotions - they don't control me. Using "breaking up families" is just a crutch to gain emotional support from weak minded people.

Million of illegals cross the boarder each year. Some of them get caught...do you think it's a great smooth process for them? No - resources are limited. They do the best they can. Plus most of them who get caught and deported - come back again.

Do the "asylum seekers" (this isn't asylum seeking - that would be done by legal methods - these are by all means - trespassers) not bear any responsibility for putting their children in jeopardy? OFC not - they are victims here aren't they? No - I don't have children. It keeps me objective. Men/women/children - they are all the same to me.

*starts backing away slowly*


That is a... disturbing opinion. And just for the record, the fact that they are responsible, or that they are 'trespassers' does in no way justify the horrible treatment of their children. This sounds suspiciously like stuff the Nazis used to say, to justify imprisoning and later murdering Jewish kids.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Million of illegals cross the boarder each year.

That appears to be wrong, based on any source I can find.

Let's do this the reasonable way;

Do you have any sources for your claim?

Classy eh ?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/fact-check-trump-north-dakota-rally.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytpolitics&smtyp=cur

In a wide-ranging campaign speech, the president spread inaccuracies on health care, the steel industry, military spending and Representative Maxine Waters.

the return of alternative facts.

 reds8n wrote:


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/fact-check-trump-north-dakota-rally.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytpolitics&smtyp=cur

In a wide-ranging campaign speech, the president spread inaccuracies on health care, the steel industry, military spending and Representative Maxine Waters.

the return of alternative facts.

A series of lies and exaggerations that will be accepted and repeated by his supporters, and take part in the formation of opinions of those of low intelligence and lacking critical thinking skills of all stripes.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Also - you might notice how the numbers decreased in the years Obama was president. In other words...they stopped catching as many people. This is intentional.

 reds8n wrote:

In a wide-ranging campaign speech, the president spread inaccuracies on health care, the steel industry, military spending and Representative Maxine Waters.

the return of alternative facts.

Daniel Dale, the Washington correspondant from the Toronto Star, does some excellent Trump speech fact-checking. E.g.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1012121346913001474?s=19

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Yeah! It could be any number like 4 or 11 billion! We dont know! Lets speculate wildly!

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Yeah! It could be any number like 4 or 11 billion! We dont know! Lets speculate wildly!

Is it really unreasonable to think it's something like a 1:1 ratio? The boarder is freaking huge.

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Lol, by your own source the estimated total number of illegals in the US is 11 million. That's an impossible number if as you say more than a million cross illegally each year, unless you also believe millions are crossing the other way. The downtrend is also clearly visible in your source, but why look at it from a reasonable angle when we pretend only 1% gets caught and millions are swarming across each years. Your basic statement was flawed beyond recovery once you brought up millionS, your sentence structure even made it out to be plural.

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Yet, you ,and apparently many others including the President of the United States, seemingly feel justified in making bold definitive declarative statements about those numbers (that you yourself declare that nobody knows).

This really put those people in a bad intellectual light.

Even making baseless speculations is suspect. That fact that such speculations are utterly worthless seems of lesser importance to people desperately looking for confirmation of unfounded convictions.

The description of how ironic it must be to be victims of Fake News to such an extent, is only overshadowed by the effort it must take to deny it.


Anyway, you made the statement that "Million of illegals cross the boarder each year."

Do you have anything to support that statement?




As a complete aside, with no impact on any arguments presented either way, would you please start spelling it "border".

Lot of random number-pulling from the coldly logical paragon of rationality.

 Spinner wrote:
Lot of random number-pulling from the coldly logical paragon of rationality.

Hey man, like children he doesn't have the numbers, its what keeps him objective

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Lol, by your own source the estimated total number of illegals in the US is 11 million. That's an impossible number if as you say millions cross illegally each year, unless you also believe millions are crossing the other way. The downtrend is also clearly visible in your source, but why look at it from a reasonable angle when we pretend only 1% gets caught and millions are swarming across each years

Lots don't stay for very long. A lot get caught and sent back. A lot go back and sneak in again. The estimation of 11 million illegal pop is exactly that - it is an extremely unintelligent guess to. How exactly do you calculate how many people are avoiding being counted? I've seen it estimated as high as 20 million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you guys know what an average is? I said millions per year. So lets say over the past 20 years - what has been the average?

About half those years are over a million caught at the board and half are under. with the max being 1.6 million and the min being .4 million. This is around a 1 million average.

This doesn't even include the people that don't get caught.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Lol, by your own source the estimated total number of illegals in the US is 11 million. That's an impossible number if as you say millions cross illegally each year, unless you also believe millions are crossing the other way. The downtrend is also clearly visible in your source, but why look at it from a reasonable angle when we pretend only 1% gets caught and millions are swarming across each years

Lots don't stay for very long. A lot get caught and sent back. A lot go back and sneak in again. The estimation of 11 million illegal pop is exactly that - it is an extremely unintelligent guess to. How exactly do you calculate how many people are avoiding being counted? I've seen it estimated as high as 20 million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you guys know what an average is? I said millions per year. So lets say over the past 20 years - what has been the average?

About half those years are over a million caught at the board and half are under. with the max being 1.6 million and the min being .4 million. This is around a 1 million average.

This doesn't even include the people that don't get caught.

I heard it estimated that it was four guys in a pickup truck that took a wrong turn looking for a campground.

This means that we had four times as many illegal immigrants as last year, when it was estimated to be a jogger named Dave.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Yeah! It could be any number like 4 or 11 billion! We dont know! Lets speculate wildly!

Is it really unreasonable to think it's something like a 1:1 ratio? The boarder is freaking huge.

You mean, you would - without any reasonable justification - like to double the official numbers in order to support your otherwise unfounded assertion?

 whembly wrote:
Mitch the Cocaine taught democrats the reprecussion of nuking the filibuster for lower courts and political appointee on the Gorsuch pick.

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time in the past explaining why your claim there is pure bs that no honest person could ever believe. And of course that's something a lot of people have done with a lot of Republicans over a lot of years now, we all kept coming back to the well, debating in good faith thinking that maybe this next fact, or this next line of discussion will get them to see reason.

It was, of course a total waste of time.

Look at the stupid debate happening right now over McConnell inventing stupid reasons to pretend there is some political or judicial reason to deny Garland a hearing, but appoint this latest Justice as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter how many times Democrats show Republicans as complete hypocrites, it will never change a Republican mind. None of it matters because everyone knows McConnell did it for purely partisan gain and McConnell simply doesn't care that people know it, and no Republican supporter cares either.

There was a famous moment in the waning days of WWII, Churchill was advising Stalin not to oppress the Catholics in his newly claimed territories, out of deference to the Pope. Stalin replied 'how many divisions does the Pope have?' Stalin was pointing out that he didn't care for international niceties like respect to figureheads. Stalin had raw power, and the only thing he would respect was raw power.

That is where we are at. For a long time now the left has operated on the assumption that as long as it can argue its case with reason and facts, that will win the day. That if it can prove someone like McConnell, or indeed Trump, is telling obvious, self-serving lies then either their own shame, or the shame of their party will force them in to a more moral form of politics. Hasn't worked in the slightest. The GOP leaders don't care, and their supporters don't either. McConnell tells such obvious lies about denying Garland then appointing whoever Trump puts up, and when called on it the answer is 'how many divisions have you got, Chuck?'

At this point the only answer is for Democrats to shift to pure power. Forget debating the liars, they'll keep repeating their bs until the end of time. Focus on getting out every Democratic vote and then really using that power when they hold it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Honestly Seb I know and respect your patience for illogical arguments but at some point if Whembly is so insistent on ignoring reality you should probably move along the lines you detailed above and ignore him. If someone wants to engage in discussion with no semblance of good faith then (to a certain extent) responding to them at all is giving their statements more validity than they deserve. If someone posts an argument so irrational that it's a literal delusion then show them that such a statement is not part of the conversation.

I don't disagree at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Riquende wrote:
Well... yeah. If one party starts to unravel and break the tools of democracy, and the other side once in power do nothing to fix them and instead just break them harder and faster, then where does it stop?

I have to explain this constantly to 12 year olds on the school playground who seem to think that this is time that the punch they land will be the one that ends the argument forever, rather than just escalating the conflict, but depressingly it's just part of the human condition to react to being wronged with any sort of retribution rather than conciliation.

In real life in the world of politics there are no teachers to break up the fight. If a kid hits you, well then maybe you can try to back off one time, but when he comes at you time and again, sooner or later you can't keep getting hit and being nice. There comes a point when the only way the fight is ever going to end is when that kid realises that you are willing to hit back, and that kid is much better off not fighting because he's gonna get hurt as well.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Obama was a solid domestic president but I find that he was weak on foreign affairs.

I'm not 100% sure he was that great on domestic either. His hopelessly naive view of GOP obstructionism meant that a majority in the house and senate was all but squandered.

I guess I'm saying that with the benefit of hindsight, but I think it was clear how it was by the time the Merrick Garland situation unfolded, and still he essentially rolled over when he could have been using the bully pulpit each and every night remaining to him.

I agree on the reaction to obstructionism. He tried harder than he should have to compromise with a side that absolutely would not compromise no matter what.

Yeah... sure... Mr. I Won would totes compromise with the GOP.

He should have seen that with Obamacare and been ready to just hammer the GOP on publicity every time. Call them a do-nothing congress, highlight their refusal to act, make sure as many people as possible know the extent to what's going on (still needs to be done today...).

Um... him, democrats and their media lackeys *did* hammer that point. I'm confused that you would think that this was some subterfuge, "wool over eyes" thing.

But while I wouldn't say he was a great domestic president I do feel he was a good one. Simply put, the country did well under his administration.

Mediocre at best. Democrats in 2009-2010 missed golden opportunities to pass big things.

You want to post his exact quote from the article or are you going to keep the awfully paraphrased quote from the article? Mr. I Won? Words that never left his mouth? Really?

Its an apt paraphrase, because it encapsulate his arrogance:
““Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won. So I think on that one I trump you.” – President Obama to House Republican Whip Eric Cantor, January 23, 2009.

That was the source of that.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You want to post his exact quote from the article or are you going to keep the awfully paraphrased quote from the article? Mr. I Won? Words that never left his mouth? Really?

What's the point of debating with him? He's saying that Obama wouldn't have done anything to compromise with the GOP, which is presumably why the public option is available now, right? He knows what he is saying isn't true. He doesn't care.

The public option wasn't even an option by some democrats. There was *no way* they were going to get it by just the democrats. They *could've* engaged the GOP on trying to craft some bipartisan measure, but Reid and Pelosi largely shut them out.

C'mon, you don't seriously believe there was good faith efforts to compromise with the GOP there... hence why NONE OF THE REPUBLICANS voted for the final bill!

Just, for the love of god, put him on ignore. He's shown time and time and time again he has no interest in honest debate, it's just lazy, no-effort feigned obtuseness and bs talking points that are debunked ad nauseum until people get tired of debunking them.

It's been many years and it's not going to change. We can at least stop giving him attention and engagement.

God forbid for dissenting opinions.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Yeah! It could be any number like 4 or 11 billion! We dont know! Lets speculate wildly!

Is it really unreasonable to think it's something like a 1:1 ratio? The boarder is freaking huge.

You mean, you would - without any reasonable justification - like the double the official numbers in order to support your otherwise unfounded assertion?

No my friend. The numbers in this source are ONLY the people that get caught. It does not include those that don't. We don't know how many don't get caught - lets ask some boarder patrol experts how many slip through the nets. I've heard a 1:1 ratio is reasonable in different documentaries and such. If you want to squabble about how accurate estimations are fine. You must acknowledge that even with a low-ball estimate - it is close to a million people coming here per year illegally and acknowledge that it could be even more.

This is A LOT of people.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
That's the best fantasy translation of both sides I've read in these threads to date. Is your plan of resistance more on the level of Red Dawn or Independence Day?

Red Dawn, the original version not the gakky remake. And obviously you'll have to prove you're on the right side by answering a question regarding a state capital by providing the correct wrong answer. Independence Day style is reserved for an entirely different type of illegal alien invasion.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Yeah! It could be any number like 4 or 11 billion! We dont know! Lets speculate wildly!

Is it really unreasonable to think it's something like a 1:1 ratio? The boarder is freaking huge.

You mean, you would - without any reasonable justification - like the double the official numbers in order to support your otherwise unfounded assertion?

No my friend. The numbers in this source are ONLY the people that get caught. It does not include those that don't. We don't know how many don't get caught - lets ask some boarder patrol experts how many slip through the nets. I've heard a 1:1 ratio is reasonable in different documentaries and such. If you want to squabble about how accurate estimations are fine. You must acknowledge that even with a low-ball estimate - it is close to a million people coming here per year illegally and acknowledge that it could be even more.

This is A LOT of people.

I've heard in different documentaries and that sort of thing that the illegal alien problem is huge, too. You can't really keep track of them, especially since they move so fast. And stop all of them from coming in? Forget it, you saw that footage the government released. Our planes can't even keep up, much less stop them. You absolutely must acknowledge that UFOs are secretly landing all over the country. At least dozens, maybe thousands, probably tens of thousands, who knows?

Anyway, that's why I don't give a crap that the state is using child abuse as a form of terrorism.

LOL child abuse? Like bringing your children with you through burning deserts - where they might die of dehydration - picked up by human traffers or turned into prostitutes - all for a chance to live undocumented and illegal in a country that might cause you to be separated?

Really? Get off your moral high horse. If these were American citizens treating these children these parents would have their kids taken away. No money to feed your kid? We'd taken them away in a heartbeat.

Also - since you care so much...what would you recommend? Each boarder processing center have 10-12 nurseries so the kids of criminals have a nice place to stay before they get back to Mexico?

Why isn't your message to build nurseries and and have social workers who speak Spanish for each boarder processing center? So we can deport these people with kindness. Isn't it because what you really want is open boarders so you have chosen to be outraged by a process that is necessary (and put in place by democrats actually) due to the high volume of deportations going on?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
LOL and consider - these are just the Apprehensions. How many do you think DON'T get caught? No one really knows that number.

Lol, by your own source the estimated total number of illegals in the US is 11 million. That's an impossible number if as you say millions cross illegally each year, unless you also believe millions are crossing the other way. The downtrend is also clearly visible in your source, but why look at it from a reasonable angle when we pretend only 1% gets caught and millions are swarming across each years

Lots don't stay for very long. A lot get caught and sent back. A lot go back and sneak in again. The estimation of 11 million illegal pop is exactly that - it is an extremely unintelligent guess to. How exactly do you calculate how many people are avoiding being counted? I've seen it estimated as high as 20 million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you guys know what an average is? I said millions per year. So lets say over the past 20 years - what has been the average?

About half those years are over a million caught at the board and half are under. with the max being 1.6 million and the min being .4 million. This is around a 1 million average.

This doesn't even include the people that don't get caught.

The illegal immigrant population is estimated to be relatively stable if shrinking. You would need to deport hundreds of thousands a year at least if millions come in. So the people who do this for a living make a estimation and you call it "extremely unintelligent"? What does that make the numbers you're bringing up now?

You said millions a year, now you're backtracking to a million. You're using numbers no longer relevant from 10 years ago. What happened 10 years ago should not dictate policy now.