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You have made it clear that you don't think foreign citizens have the right to protest or spread propaganda. So, when illegal immigrants march for Immigrant rights you think that should be banned too, right?
What you just said. Also a false choice, and a red herring since you're just trying to segway discussion away from the mounting Russia investigation to prattle about Immigration.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 22:35:42
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
I've said it before to American dakka members, but I'll say it again on this symbolic day. Only Americans can defeat America.
Russians, Putin, foreign interference, North Koreans, Klingon, a POTUS on the take, or whatever the hell it is...
It doesn't add up to a bucket of horsegak.
Your country is in this state, because you as a nation have allowed it to be in this state: the hollowed out parties, the erosion of your constitution, voter apathy, gak politics etc etc
A USA fully engaged in the democratic system, confident in itself and its values, with an informed citizenry holding its politicians to account, would laugh Russian interference out of town.
This is not me blaming individual American dakka members, because myself and the rest of British society are responsible for the gakstorm that is British politics...
We're just as bad and we need to up our game as well.
But when you read Tocqueville, and re-visit it from time to time like what I do, and read those words of wisdom, you see the solution in front of you...
One day, America will get its revolutionary and early republican zeal back, and the Trumps and the Clintons of this world will be lucky if they get to run a hotdog stand, never mind a super power.
Only Americans can defeat America.
That tends to be my mind on the Russian interference with the election. If the Russians can spend a few million on Facebook ads and internet memes and measurably influence an American election, then that says far more about American voters than most people want to seriously consider, doesn't it? I mean, Republicans danced with vindictive glee when whatshisname got caught taking about the "stupidity of the American voter", but all politicians have depended on that "stupidity" for years, have stoked and nurtured it, weaponized it even, and only now they cry foul when it bites them in the ass after someone else made use of it?
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
I've said it before to American dakka members, but I'll say it again on this symbolic day. Only Americans can defeat America.
Russians, Putin, foreign interference, North Koreans, Klingon, a POTUS on the take, or whatever the hell it is...
It doesn't add up to a bucket of horsegak.
Your country is in this state, because you as a nation have allowed it to be in this state: the hollowed out parties, the erosion of your constitution, voter apathy, gak politics etc etc
A USA fully engaged in the democratic system, confident in itself and its values, with an informed citizenry holding its politicians to account, would laugh Russian interference out of town.
This is not me blaming individual American dakka members, because myself and the rest of British society are responsible for the gakstorm that is British politics...
We're just as bad and we need to up our game as well.
But when you read Tocqueville, and re-visit it from time to time like what I do, and read those words of wisdom, you see the solution in front of you...
One day, America will get its revolutionary and early republican zeal back, and the Trumps and the Clintons of this world will be lucky if they get to run a hotdog stand, never mind a super power.
I like how he keeps on pretending that there are somehow zero regulations on political activities on US citizens inside the US.
But yeah, it’s not like there aren’t sligh gradients between “Foreign government shouldn’t be allowed to be active agents in our elections”, “foreign people and organizations should follow regulations just like US citizens and organizations”, and “let foreign people do whatever the feth they want, 1A bitches!”.
Or you know, a gradient between “foreign immigrants should be able to riot and burn the city down”, “foreign immigrants should be able to peacefully assemble under the same rules as citizens”, and “ no rights for immigrants, bitches!”.
d-usa wrote: I like how he keeps on pretending that there are somehow zero regulations on political activities on US citizens inside the US.
But yeah, it’s not like there aren’t sligh gradients between “Foreign government shouldn’t be allowed to be active agents in our elections”, “foreign people and organizations should follow regulations just like US citizens and organizations”, and “let foreign people do whatever the feth they want, 1A bitches!”.
Or you know, a gradient between “foreign immigrants should be able to riot and burn the city down”, “foreign immigrants should be able to peacefully assemble under the same rules as citizens”, and “ no rights for immigrants, bitches!”.
I've literally never said any of that. I even said that I did have a problem with active Russian interference, and that their hacking was obviously illegal. I will say that foreign nationals assembling trying to influence policy isn't really any different than paid protestors assembling trying to passively influence policy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 22:51:22
A segue is used to transition from one theme or topic to another without interruption.
A segway is a fun toy you can ride around on.
[/pedant]
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
d-usa wrote: I like how he keeps on pretending that there are somehow zero regulations on political activities on US citizens inside the US.
But yeah, it’s not like there aren’t sligh gradients between “Foreign government shouldn’t be allowed to be active agents in our elections”, “foreign people and organizations should follow regulations just like US citizens and organizations”, and “let foreign people do whatever the feth they want, 1A bitches!”.
Or you know, a gradient between “foreign immigrants should be able to riot and burn the city down”, “foreign immigrants should be able to peacefully assemble under the same rules as citizens”, and “ no rights for immigrants, bitches!”.
I've literally never said any of that. I even said that I did have a problem with active Russian interference, and that their hacking was obviously illegal. I will say that foreign nationals assembling trying to influence policy isn't really any different than paid protestors assembling trying to passively influence policy.
You're right in the sense you didn't -literally- say it. But you did say that supporting immigrants being allowed to utilize constitutional rights to peacefully assemble was equivalent to supporting Russian interference in the election:
cuda1179 wrote: I just thought of this, but haven't many in this thread declared that even foreign non-citizens still have Constitutional rights in the US? If that's how people feel, then doesn't Russia still have 1st Amendment rights to say whatever they want within US borders?
Xenomancers wrote: Plus after 2 plus years of trying to link that to Trump - and utterly failing...it really is time to burry that hatchet.
The Mueller investigation began on 17th of May 2017. I know that President Trump consistently lies and exaggerates about even the most pathetic (and verifiable) things, but that kind of behaviour isn't actually normal for an adult.
As a point of comparison;
Watergate investigation (26 months): June 20, 1972 - August 9, 1974
Whitewater Investigation (49 months): August 1994 - September 1998
Benghazi investigation (54 months): Sep 13, 2012 - Dec 7, 2016
Iran-Contra (80 months): Nov 26, 1986 - Aug 4, 1993
Donald Trump Campaign/Russia Investigation: May 2017 - ??......14 months, so far
Don't make the mistake of assuming;
1. That the Mueller investigation is as leaky as the current amazingly dysfunctional White House.
2. That the public is told anything at all before the investigation is finished. Notice the number of press releases and interviews from the Mueller investigation?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 00:50:19
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
I've said it before to American dakka members, but I'll say it again on this symbolic day. Only Americans can defeat America.
Russians, Putin, foreign interference, North Koreans, Klingon, a POTUS on the take, or whatever the hell it is...
It doesn't add up to a bucket of horsegak.
Your country is in this state, because you as a nation have allowed it to be in this state: the hollowed out parties, the erosion of your constitution, voter apathy, gak politics etc etc
A USA fully engaged in the democratic system, confident in itself and its values, with an informed citizenry holding its politicians to account, would laugh Russian interference out of town.
This is not me blaming individual American dakka members, because myself and the rest of British society are responsible for the gakstorm that is British politics...
We're just as bad and we need to up our game as well.
But when you read Tocqueville, and re-visit it from time to time like what I do, and read those words of wisdom, you see the solution in front of you...
One day, America will get its revolutionary and early republican zeal back, and the Trumps and the Clintons of this world will be lucky if they get to run a hotdog stand, never mind a super power.
Only Americans can defeat America.
Yeah. When the Americans get worried that a some Russian Facebook posts were capable of interfering in their election, you know that American democracy is in a dire state. Even if the Russians were to spam every single Facebook page in existence and make a million fake news sites, a healthy, stable democracy would not be shaken by that. But then again, healthy, stable democracies also do not elect unstable demagogues to be their leader. Trump is the perfect symbol for the political crisis the US is going through right now. This is a crisis that a lot of Western countries are experiencing right now, but none as bad as the US (Britain comes close though.). Instead of wasting energy chasing foreign straw men, as great for distracting people from domestic issues as they may be, US politicians need to spend their energy on fixing the problems that put them in a situation where they feel threatened by the likes of Russian Facebook trolls. In other words, the American people need to have a good think about how they are going to heal the rifts in American society.
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
I've said it before to American dakka members, but I'll say it again on this symbolic day. Only Americans can defeat America.
Russians, Putin, foreign interference, North Koreans, Klingon, a POTUS on the take, or whatever the hell it is...
It doesn't add up to a bucket of horsegak.
Your country is in this state, because you as a nation have allowed it to be in this state: the hollowed out parties, the erosion of your constitution, voter apathy, gak politics etc etc
A USA fully engaged in the democratic system, confident in itself and its values, with an informed citizenry holding its politicians to account, would laugh Russian interference out of town.
This is not me blaming individual American dakka members, because myself and the rest of British society are responsible for the gakstorm that is British politics...
We're just as bad and we need to up our game as well.
But when you read Tocqueville, and re-visit it from time to time like what I do, and read those words of wisdom, you see the solution in front of you...
One day, America will get its revolutionary and early republican zeal back, and the Trumps and the Clintons of this world will be lucky if they get to run a hotdog stand, never mind a super power.
Only Americans can defeat America.
Yeah. When the Americans get worried that a some Russian Facebook posts were capable of interfering in their election, you know that American democracy is in a dire state. Even if the Russians were to spam every single Facebook page in existence and make a million fake news sites, a healthy, stable democracy would not be shaken by that. But then again, healthy, stable democracies also do not elect unstable demagogues to be their leader. Trump is the perfect symbol for the political crisis the US is going through right now. This is a crisis that a lot of Western countries are experiencing right now, but none as bad as the US (Britain comes close though.). Instead of wasting energy chasing foreign straw men, as great for distracting people from domestic issues as they may be, US politicians need to spend their energy on fixing the problems that put them in a situation where they feel threatened by the likes of Russian Facebook trolls. In other words, the American people need to have a good think about how they are going to heal the rifts in American society.
Ad campaigns wouldn't be used if they didn't work. Again, trump won by 80,000 votes across a few states, and that's not even getting into the actual hacking they did (and that trump refuses to protect against). And It's not that Russia is the causes of all of America's problems, but they ARE partially responsible for the last election.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 01:14:50
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
Yeah. When the Americans get worried that a some Russian Facebook posts were capable of interfering in their election, you know that American democracy is in a dire state. Even if the Russians were to spam every single Facebook page in existence and make a million fake news sites, a healthy, stable democracy would not be shaken by that. But then again, healthy, stable democracies also do not elect unstable demagogues to be their leader. Trump is the perfect symbol for the political crisis the US is going through right now. This is a crisis that a lot of Western countries are experiencing right now, but none as bad as the US (Britain comes close though.). Instead of wasting energy chasing foreign straw men, as great for distracting people from domestic issues as they may be, US politicians need to spend their energy on fixing the problems that put them in a situation where they feel threatened by the likes of Russian Facebook trolls. In other words, the American people need to have a good think about how they are going to heal the rifts in American society.
Yeah, let's pretend that your claims are what happened.
Not a concerted disinformation effort coupled with timed leaks of massive dumps of information that the average voter won't read in detail(much less understand in detail!) and a voter base that is already antagonistic towards the opposition.
I get that you have to tow the party line, but at least be honest about your motives here.
Xenomancers wrote: Plus after 2 plus years of trying to link that to Trump - and utterly failing...it really is time to burry that hatchet.
The Mueller investigation began on 17th of May 2017. I know that President Trump consistently lies and exaggerates about even the most pathetic (and verifiable) things, but that kind of behaviour isn't actually normal for an adult.
As a point of comparison;
Watergate investigation (26 months): June 20, 1972 - August 9, 1974
Whitewater Investigation (49 months): August 1994 - September 1998
Benghazi investigation (54 months): Sep 13, 2012 - Dec 7, 2016
Iran-Contra (80 months): Nov 26, 1986 - Aug 4, 1993
Donald Trump Campaign/Russia Investigation: May 2017 - ??......14 months, so far
Don't make the mistake of assuming;
1. That the Mueller investigation is as leaky as the current amazingly dysfunctional White House.
2. That the public is told anything at all before the investigation is finished. Notice the number of press releases and interviews from the Mueller investigation?
Collusion is also only one of multiple directives for the investigation. And it has already found quite a lot of wrongdoing and even what, four guilty pleas already? It's the exact opposite of a witch hunt, regardless of whatever lies Fox is selling.
cuda1179 wrote: I just thought of this, but haven't many in this thread declared that even foreign non-citizens still have Constitutional rights in the US? If that's how people feel, then doesn't Russia still have 1st Amendment rights to say whatever they want within US borders
Of course foreign ciitzens have some constitutional rights. Is it a controversial idea that if a non-citizen is arrested in this country, they have a right to a lawyer, the right not to be tortured, the right to not have their property arbitrarily seized, and so on? There are constitutional precedents for these cases going back to like the 1800s. No one really disputes that, right?
And similarly, no one thinks that foreign citizens have all of the constitutional rights we do. No one seriously advocates ideas like, foreign citizens should have the right to contribute to elections, or vote, or own firearms. I know there are some exceptions to those, like for permanent residents, but lets keep it general. Because clearly we all understand that foreign citizens in the US, and hell, foreign citizens abroad in places under US control, have some constitutional rights, but not all of them.
But this is all kind of bs anyway, because getting into the weeds of what exactly a foreign citizen has the right to do or not do in the US is sidestepping the fact that it was a state-sponsored action, not that of individual Russians.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It's the exact opposite of a witch hunt, regardless of whatever lies Fox is selling.
If it's a witch hunt, then it's found a lot of witches.
In any event, if we agree that Russia interfered with the 2016 election, then it's largely immaterial if it was effective or not. You'd be pretty mad if I was firing a gun at your house even if I didn't actually hit the house.
I agree that, just as we should do with a mad gun man, the police should arrest Russia.
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
I've said it before to American dakka members, but I'll say it again on this symbolic day. Only Americans can defeat America.
Russians, Putin, foreign interference, North Koreans, Klingon, a POTUS on the take, or whatever the hell it is...
It doesn't add up to a bucket of horsegak.
Your country is in this state, because you as a nation have allowed it to be in this state: the hollowed out parties, the erosion of your constitution, voter apathy, gak politics etc etc
A USA fully engaged in the democratic system, confident in itself and its values, with an informed citizenry holding its politicians to account, would laugh Russian interference out of town.
This is not me blaming individual American dakka members, because myself and the rest of British society are responsible for the gakstorm that is British politics...
We're just as bad and we need to up our game as well.
But when you read Tocqueville, and re-visit it from time to time like what I do, and read those words of wisdom, you see the solution in front of you...
One day, America will get its revolutionary and early republican zeal back, and the Trumps and the Clintons of this world will be lucky if they get to run a hotdog stand, never mind a super power.
Only Americans can defeat America.
Yeah. When the Americans get worried that a some Russian Facebook posts were capable of interfering in their election, you know that American democracy is in a dire state. Even if the Russians were to spam every single Facebook page in existence and make a million fake news sites, a healthy, stable democracy would not be shaken by that. But then again, healthy, stable democracies also do not elect unstable demagogues to be their leader. Trump is the perfect symbol for the political crisis the US is going through right now. This is a crisis that a lot of Western countries are experiencing right now, but none as bad as the US (Britain comes close though.). Instead of wasting energy chasing foreign straw men, as great for distracting people from domestic issues as they may be, US politicians need to spend their energy on fixing the problems that put them in a situation where they feel threatened by the likes of Russian Facebook trolls. In other words, the American people need to have a good think about how they are going to heal the rifts in American society.
Ad campaigns wouldn't be used if they didn't work. Again, trump won by 80,000 votes across a few states, and that's not even getting into the actual hacking they did (and that trump refuses to protect against). And It's not that Russia is the causes of all of America's problems, but they ARE partially responsible for the last election.
LOL, now we’re blaming Russia for people not voting for Hillary? Right because the reason Hillary lost states like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania wasn’t because she wasn’t nearly as great of a candidate as she thought she was, nope, it was a carefully crafted social media ad campaign by the Russian intelligence services. So all it takes to suppress the Democrat vote in a half dozen swing states to guarantee a Republican victory is a ad campaign on Facebook? Then it looks like we’re going to have Republicans in the White House for a long time. Lodestar victimizes himself by falling for a phishing scam and the DNC “hack” only exposed the actions the DNC was willingly taking. If the routine workings of the DNC were so awful that their exposure to the public pushed Democratic voters to stay home on Election Day that’s the DNC’s fault.
All the posts in this thread about the 62 million Trump voters needing to take responsibility for electing Trump because they’re so enamores with his horrific character flaws and now we’re absolving the lack of Democratic turnout by blaming Russian social media campaigns that call the legitimacy of the election into question. The US and Russia have been messing with each other directly and via proxy for over 60 years, voter apathy has plagued the US for even longer for a variety of reasons, our current political system emphasizes protecting the two party duopoly ahead of producing quality candidates for public office. Blaming Russia for the mess we made ourselves would be laughable if it was just plain sad. It’s amazing how Trump is President but neither Party wants the American electorate to shoulder any blame for it.
I believe what he is saying is that it is foolish to discount Russian interference as a factor. No one is absolving the Dems/Clinton of the crap they pulled, it just isn't as relevant anymore. In fact, that's been so well established that unless someone actually says they aren't at fault the only reason to bring it up at this point is whataboutism.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I believe what he is saying is that it is foolish to discount Russian interference as a factor. No one is absolving the Dems/Clinton of the crap they pulled, it just isn't as relevant anymore. In fact, that's been so well established that unless someone actually says they aren't at fault the only reason to bring it up at this point is whataboutism.
That's basically what I'm saying. Russia most likely swung the election between polarizing groups (i.e. organizing opposing rallies on the same day), a massive ad campaign (126 million people reached or so from facebook alone, and who knows how many more from youtube, twitter, etc?), and actual hacking of the election. 80,000 people is not a large number of votes to win by, and if Russia's ad campaign had a 0.001% effectiveness it still would have been over a 120,000 votes from facebook alone.
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
NinthMusketeer wrote: [ it has already found quite a lot of wrongdoing and even what, four guilty pleas already? It's the exact opposite of a witch hunt, regardless of whatever lies Fox is selling.
Let's be honest here. Not saying these guys are innocent, as they likely are guilty. But the guilty pleas aren't absolute proof. Even the actual Salem Witch Hunt had many guilty pleas, yet no actual witches.
MrDwhitey wrote: Drunk driving/Texting while driving should be punished extremely harshly.
I do remember when we had a thread here ages ago and several people went on about how it was vital they text/take calls while driving.
Yes agreed. It's hideous neglience and annoyingly it's often enough totally innocent people get hurt. It's devastating enough when your friends wife loses niece and brother to a drunk driver. Shudder to think how I would have felt if it would have been even closer.
No excuse. "Vital to text". Well if it's vital howabout stop your car to do so?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I believe what he is saying is that it is foolish to discount Russian interference as a factor. No one is absolving the Dems/Clinton of the crap they pulled, it just isn't as relevant anymore. In fact, that's been so well established that unless someone actually says they aren't at fault the only reason to bring it up at this point is whataboutism.
That's basically what I'm saying. Russia most likely swung the election between polarizing groups (i.e. organizing opposing rallies on the same day), a massive ad campaign (126 million people reached or so from facebook alone, and who knows how many more from youtube, twitter, etc?), and actual hacking of the election. 80,000 people is not a large number of votes to win by, and if Russia's ad campaign had a 0.001% effectiveness it still would have been over a 120,000 votes from facebook alone.
Your numbers are a little off. only 119 million people voted in the election. If the Russians did sway 80,000 voters in key states, that means (if they ended up not swaying any towards Hillary) they had a .067% sway rate. And that is among the entire country. If you only count the key swing states as is being discussed (Michigan, Nevada, New Hampshire, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin) that's less than 20 million voters, so that means Russians would need a .34% sway rate in those key states. Once again, that's over the ENTIRE voting base. The only ones that really mattered were the ones sitting on the fence, and 75-80% of voters were dead set on their voting months before hand, heck some would vote party lines before knowing who the candidates were going to be. So we are looking at undecided voters, and that 80,000 represents about 1.5% of them. But then again, that's assuming all of them would have voted for Hillary anyway. We'd have to assume that at least SOME of the undecided voters would have had to vote for Trump even without Russian involvement.
So, realistically Russia would have had to have had at least a 2% influence rate among undecided voters in those key states to make a difference. Is it feasible that Russia changed the minds of 1 in 50 people? I'm not sure. Maybe?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 03:50:57
Yeah. When the Americans get worried that a some Russian Facebook posts were capable of interfering in their election, you know that American democracy is in a dire state. Even if the Russians were to spam every single Facebook page in existence and make a million fake news sites, a healthy, stable democracy would not be shaken by that. But then again, healthy, stable democracies also do not elect unstable demagogues to be their leader. Trump is the perfect symbol for the political crisis the US is going through right now. This is a crisis that a lot of Western countries are experiencing right now, but none as bad as the US (Britain comes close though.). Instead of wasting energy chasing foreign straw men, as great for distracting people from domestic issues as they may be, US politicians need to spend their energy on fixing the problems that put them in a situation where they feel threatened by the likes of Russian Facebook trolls. In other words, the American people need to have a good think about how they are going to heal the rifts in American society.
Yeah, let's pretend that your claims are what happened.
Not a concerted disinformation effort coupled with timed leaks of massive dumps of information that the average voter won't read in detail(much less understand in detail!) and a voter base that is already antagonistic towards the opposition.
I get that you have to tow the party line, but at least be honest about your motives here.
That is exactly what I am talking about. Please, continue blaming the Russians instead of your own problems. Russia will only be happy because of it, because this is exactly what their aim is. Their aim was never to influence the outcome of the US elections, they are not fools, they know they can't really do that. Their plans reach far, far beyond just a simple election. Their goal is just to sow division in any way possible, to widen rifts in American society and disrupt the West. They want to see the Democrats accuse Trump of colluding with the Russians. They'll do anything to make Democrats mad at Trump and Republicans, and vice versa. That is how they will drive the US apart. Hack by hack and leak by leak. Again, a healthy society would not be really affected by that. But a society that is already as divided as the US? You guys need to get closer to one another again. Or you will become vulnerable. The same goes for many European countries. Because Russia isn't just doing this in the US. They are doing it everywhere. Yes, you can blame Russia for that, but it is useless. Because it won't make Russia stop. Yes, you can blame the people colluding with Russia for that. But that too is useless, and is in fact exactly the kind of infighting Russia is aiming to create. Instead, you should blame yourself for letting your own society get so divided in the first place. There is only two ways to make this stop. Either repair the rifts in society or repair the rifts with Russia. Or preferably, both.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 04:03:18
Let's be honest here. Not saying these guys are innocent, as they likely are guilty. But the guilty pleas aren't absolute proof. Even the actual Salem Witch Hunt had many guilty pleas, yet no actual witches.
No, guilty pleas are not proof, they're an admission of guilt. The major difference here is, much as I'd like to crush Trump's cabinet with hundreds of pounds of rock until they plead guilty, like they did at witch trials, we have modern systems that disallow that sort of coercion. Ironically, the same systems that Trump apparently despises until he can slant the courts his way.
That is exactly what I am talking about. Please, continue blaming the Russians instead of your own problems..
While I cannot deny that Russia is exploiting this to their own benefit, you do have a point. However, I think it;'s well and truly past that. The time till the worlds first nuclear armed Civil War is slowly advancing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 04:14:29
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Let's be honest here. Not saying these guys are innocent, as they likely are guilty. But the guilty pleas aren't absolute proof. Even the actual Salem Witch Hunt had many guilty pleas, yet no actual witches.
No, guilty pleas are not proof, they're an admission of guilt. The major difference here is, much as I'd like to crush Trump's cabinet with hundreds of pounds of rock until they plead guilty, like they did at witch trials, we have modern systems that disallow that sort of coercion. Ironically, the same systems that Trump apparently despises until he can slant the courts his way.
So you don't think anyone has ever taken a guilty plea under current US law because an uncertain jury verdict might be worse? (once again, I do think they're likely guilty, but still).
18.000 
3.500 
8.200 
3.300 
2.400 
3.100 
5.500 
2.500 
3.200 
3.000
but not quite so crazy...
