US & NA Politics Thread

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**Crispy78**

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/im-not-trump-says-trump-20180718175427

**Kilkrazy**

warhead01 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
All citizens have a right to vote. If it's made a legal requirement to have an ID card to do so, the state should make 100% certain to issue cards to all citizens and pay for it from general tax revenue. There should be zero malarkey about accepting driving licenses or utility bills or whatever, and it should be made extremely easy to get the necessary card.

But of course we all know that Voter ID actually is a GOP plan to disenfranchise minority groups considered more likely to vote Democrat. That is why it is being made difficult to obtain the ID.

I absolutely agree that anything mandatory should be provided. It's not like it would cost that much to provide the ID's.

However, I am not sold on the idea that ID's are used to discourage voting now. The idea of needing an ID to vote as a boggyman, sure. But not the ID it self.
There is a disconnect in the US about the "minorities" ability to do anything. One side of the country thinks a group needs their hands held to accomplish anything. The other side, literally the easy when interviewed on the street were in disbelief that people in California thought they couldn't get a drivers licence or for that matter use a smart phone. Random people asked all seemed to both have their various ID's and know where to go the get them. Granted that was New York but why should it be different anywhere else.

I live in a town of 1500. We have a DMV in the center of town.

ID's don't fix everything for voting but they might be a step in the right direction for a while. I think I would be for prosecuting anyone committing intentional vote fraud with harsher penalties for those Organizing and enabling it.

What I haven't seen in this thread so far is any mention of the social shift toward Socialism and Communism in the left.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Defending-the-Right-to-Vote-Voter-ID-Briefing.pdf

**Disciple of Fate**

godardc wrote:
In France it is a fixed amount of money, 25 or 30, you have to go to the city hall to get a new one, where do you buy yours in Netherland ? Very surpised there are different costs !
What's funny is we have voter cards too, used only to vote, in addition of our ID card. But you can vote without the voter card, whereas you can't vote if you have your voter card but not your ID card...

Also city hall, but the cost is up to the local municipality. So one city hall might charge 50% less than another. The national goverment only sets a maximum limit on cost.
As for voting, we too have voting cards that the government mails to all eligible voters for each election.

**warhead01**

Bran Dawri wrote:

But I agree that in the US this would either not fly or (as is sometimes currently attempted) would be implemented in such a way it keeps the other side from voting. Which is just plain wrong.

To me it's would be mitigated by not putting party affiliation on the ID. Unfortunately it involves presenting a party affiliation card to vote in a primary. But If we're asking for one ID already. lol. is two really that much to ask for.

**Disciple of Fate**

Bran Dawri wrote:
@ Disciple: I think that fingerprint stuff wasn't actually implemented until after the court confirmation then. My passport's from 2015.
But I agree that in the US this would either not fly or (as is sometimes currently attempted) would be implemented in such a way it keeps the other side from voting. Which is just plain wrong.

Well that really depends, I renewed my passport twice between 2009 and 2016 and couldn't get one without. They just flat out refused. Your municipality should have requested it though as they are obligated to do so, did you have to refuse? Curious that you got one without, are you sure they didn't print you before your 2015 renewal time? Doing it once and they should just have it on file for renewal and not have you give it again.
As for implementation, agreed. The US has the wrong driving force behind it.

**KTG17**

Kilkrazy wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
d-usa wrote:
earlofburger wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, Voter ID laws tend to disenfranchise people. Specifically, minorities, the poor, and the elderly.

Care to elaborate on that?

Just because I should probably give a bit of a more helpful answer, even if I feel it's a futile effort on this board:

As it has been explained, many of the demographics that have a hard time getting the required IDs are often demographics that are tend to vote a certain way (ie: Democratic), while almost all laws implementing voter ID requirements are passed by Republican legislatures.

One of the most obvious examples of voter ID laws and voting access was a few years ago in South Carolina I think. We had a big discussion on here and when you actually looked at the election results it made it pretty easy to see how each specific change affected the demographics: Early Registration (registering before you turned 18, if you will be 18 on the date of the election) was restricted, and that demographic voted Democrat. Sunday voting was eliminated, and that demographic was mainly black senior citizens being driven to polls after church voting Democrat. Early voting was cut down to fewer days (most early voters voted Democrat). For Voter IDs, Student IDs were not accepted (mostly voted Democrat), Concealed Carry IDs were accepted (mostly voted Republican), expired IDs were not allowed, unless you were over 60something (old people voted Republican). Etc.

One of the big red herrings you will often see is that Voter ID laws often target minorities, which ultimately brings the defense of "stop calling the GOP racist". I personally think that race really isn't the issue here, and that the GOP would be happy to get rid of any laws that disenfranchise minorities if they would vote Republican instead of Democrat.

I just got a new drivers license. I had to go in and get it and not order a new one online because its in a new format (REAL ID Act). The old one will keep me from gaining entry to federal buildings, or even flying on commercial flights in 2020.

Phase Location Enforcement Date
Phase 1 Restricted areas (i.e., areas accessible by agency personnel, contractors, and their guests) for DHS headquarters in Washington. April 21, 2014
Phase 2 Restricted areas for all Federal facilities and nuclear power plants. July 21, 2014
Phase 3 Semi-restricted areas (i.e., areas available to the general public but subject to ID-based access control) for most Federal facilities.
3a. Federal Security Levels 1 and 2 January 19, 2015
3b. Federal Security Levels 3, 4, and 5, and military facilities October 10, 2015
Phase 4 Boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft. A driver's license or identification card from a noncompliant state may only be used in conjunction with a second form of ID for boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft. October 1, 2020

https://www.flhsmv.gov/driver-licenses-id-cards/real-id/

If I have to go through getting the right ID to gain access to commercial flights, I sure as hell should have some ID to prove who I am when I go to vote.

It is a false equivalence.

It’s also fake news! <rolls eyes>

**BrotherGecko**

I can vote in a party primary without presenting any form of ID.

**warhead01**

Kilkrazy wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
All citizens have a right to vote. If it's made a legal requirement to have an ID card to do so, the state should make 100% certain to issue cards to all citizens and pay for it from general tax revenue. There should be zero malarkey about accepting driving licenses or utility bills or whatever, and it should be made extremely easy to get the necessary card.

But of course we all know that Voter ID actually is a GOP plan to disenfranchise minority groups considered more likely to vote Democrat. That is why it is being made difficult to obtain the ID.

I absolutely agree that anything mandatory should be provided. It's not like it would cost that much to provide the ID's.

However, I am not sold on the idea that ID's are used to discourage voting now. The idea of needing an ID to vote as a boggyman, sure. But not the ID it self.
There is a disconnect in the US about the "minorities" ability to do anything. One side of the country thinks a group needs their hands held to accomplish anything. The other side, literally the easy when interviewed on the street were in disbelief that people in California thought they couldn't get a drivers licence or for that matter use a smart phone. Random people asked all seemed to both have their various ID's and know where to go the get them. Granted that was New York but why should it be different anywhere else.

I live in a town of 1500. We have a DMV in the center of town.

ID's don't fix everything for voting but they might be a step in the right direction for a while. I think I would be for prosecuting anyone committing intentional vote fraud with harsher penalties for those Organizing and enabling it.

What I haven't seen in this thread so far is any mention of the social shift toward Socialism and Communism in the left.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Defending-the-Right-to-Vote-Voter-ID-Briefing.pdf

I skimmed that but read the international evidence section.
I think what I am getting at is to me it is ridicules to think that a minority can't get any ID anyone else can. I mean if it is such a problem where are all the ID drives ? If I am a higher up in a party under this system I am going to go out of my way to help people I want to vote my way get what they need to vote as it is good for my party to have a high number of voters.
There will always be some kind of human error. My Dad was voting at the same place he had voted for years and they tried to turn him away because they didn't have him on the rolls. I don't know if that was human error on their part or if it happen shortly after my parents moved to a new house up the road. (I don't know if the new address put them in a new voting area.) He did vote there after an argument. He very probably still votes there, I have never heard otherwise.

If ID's don't help enough to bother with then what's to be done? I know chipping ID becoming popular over seas. (But no thank you.)

**War Drone**

I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet that your Pres has backtracked on a pretty important statement at Helsinki ...

Trump Putin: US president reverses remark on Russia meddling

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44864739

US President Donald Trump has said he accepts US intelligence agencies' conclusion that Russia interfered in the 2016 election - despite declining to do so just a day ago.
He said he had misspoken on Monday and had meant to say he saw no reason why it was not Russia that meddled.

What Trump said then...
TRUMP: My people came to me... they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin; he just said it's not Russia. I will say this: I don't see any reason why it would be.

.... what he says now
Mr Trump said he had reviewed the transcript and realised he needed to clarify.
"In a key sentence in my remarks, I said the word 'would' instead of 'wouldn't," he said.
"The sentence should have been: 'I don't see any reason why I wouldn't' or 'why it wouldn't be Russia'. Sort of a double negative."

The US president added: "I accept our intelligence community's conclusion that Russia's meddling in the 2016 election took place. Could be other people also. A lot of people out there."

**d-usa**

The “I misspoke” excuse is pretty thin, considering he doubled down on his “misspeak” in subsequent interviews before pretending he didn’t.

**Kilkrazy**

The first point about "personation", which is the crime Voter ID is supposedly intended to prevent, is that it is very rare.

Therefore Voter ID laws are not needed, except to create unnecessary barriers to entry.

As soon as there are more barriers to entry, more people some way or another are going to be stopped from voting.

The fact that all the Voter ID laws are being created by GOP governments is a clue to their real purpose.

You may find it difficult to imagine not being able to get ID, but that isn't a positive reason for requiring one just to exercise your citizen's right to vote.

**skyth**

In other news, the NRA was caught colluding with a Russian spy and less than 24 hours later the NRA is no longer required to disclose it's donors...what a coincidance.

**Prestor Jon**

BrotherGecko wrote:
I can vote in a party primary without presenting any form of ID.

That will vary state to state depending on whether your state has primaries or caucuses and if the primaries are open or closed.

On election day here in NC I have to be on the voter rolls show up at my assigned polling station give my name to the senior citizen volunteer manning the polling station who will then look me up in the appropriate alphabetized 3 ring binder of registered voters find my name and ask me what my address is and they will check the information on the voter rolls to make sure my answer is correct. The system we have already requires me to provide my name and address, we're just still using verbal responses and the honor system because while it would be easy for me (or anyone else) to pretend to be one of my neighbors or friends and vote in their stead it is extremely uncommon for anyone to do so.

The way we should be approaching the issue of our voting systems is by comparing them to the ideal system that would serve us best instead deciding that an arbitrary prerequisite of evidence of massive voter fraud must be proved to justify changes. We have low voter turnout, outdated registration systems, haphazard voter roll maintenance and the bare minimum of security. This is not the best system we could have so we should make improvements to it that address the problems in the system.

**d-usa**

I know that there isn’t any evidence that they were hacked, but I’m not a big fan of electronic machines with no paper backup. I think Oklahoma has a good balance there. We fill out a paper ballot, it is scanned into the machine, the machine reads and tallies all your votes, and then submits the totals to the election commission together with all the their machines. You get the instant results, but you still have the actual paper ballots as well for recounts and verification that the machines gave the correct totals.

**Frazzled**

Da Boss wrote:
Seems like he can lie as much as he wants. The republican base will eat up any amount of bs.

However the Republican base is shrinking.

**whembly**

skyth wrote:
In other news, the NRA was caught colluding with a Russian spy and less than 24 hours later the NRA is no longer required to disclose it's donors...what a coincidance.

Caught colluding... how?

**YeOldSaltPotato**

whembly wrote:
skyth wrote:
In other news, the NRA was caught colluding with a Russian spy and less than 24 hours later the NRA is no longer required to disclose it's donors...what a coincidance.

Caught colluding... how?

Fund raising with an unregistered foreign agent I believe.

**whembly**

d-usa wrote:
I know that there isn’t any evidence that they were hacked, but I’m not a big fan of electronic machines with no paper backup. I think Oklahoma has a good balance there. We fill out a paper ballot, it is scanned into the machine, the machine reads and tallies all your votes, and then submits the totals to the election commission together with all the their machines. You get the instant results, but you still have the actual paper ballots as well for recounts and verification that the machines gave the correct totals.

Best system imo too.

Allows for easier 'recounts' as the original ballot is retained.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
whembly wrote:
skyth wrote:
In other news, the NRA was caught colluding with a Russian spy and less than 24 hours later the NRA is no longer required to disclose it's donors...what a coincidance.

Caught colluding... how?

Fund raising with an unregistered foreign agent I believe.

Did they *know* she was a spy? Or, did she...yaknow... used her spy skillz to pretend she's someone she's not?

**Vaktathi**

Trump says no 'time limit' on North Korea denuclearisation

US President Donald Trump says there is "no time limit" for North Korea to denuclearise and that there is no need to rush the process.

It marks a shift in tone from Mr Trump who previously said nuclear disarmament would start "very quickly".

Last month, the US president and North Korean leader Kim Jong-un held historic talks and pledged to denuclearise the Korean peninsula.

The accord did not have a timetable for the process or plan to carry it out.

**Disciple of Fate**

Vaktathi wrote:
Trump says no 'time limit' on North Korea denuclearisation

US President Donald Trump says there is "no time limit" for North Korea to denuclearise and that there is no need to rush the process.

It marks a shift in tone from Mr Trump who previously said nuclear disarmament would start "very quickly".

Last month, the US president and North Korean leader Kim Jong-un held historic talks and pledged to denuclearise the Korean peninsula.

The accord did not have a timetable for the process or plan to carry it out.

I posted it too, didn't get a lot of traction. Like I said, Trump must have gotten a spooky visit from his 'nuclear uncle'. Some amazing backtracking, perhaps his staff is slowly convincing him that Kim really isn't as honest as Trump was seduce... I mean led to believe.

**Da Boss**

Actual success or achievement does not matter to Trump or his supporters. Just declaring victory is the main thing.

**Vaktathi**

Da Boss wrote:
Actual success or achievement does not matter to Trump or his supporters. Just declaring victory is the main thing.

That appears to be the gist of it. If it made the other side mad, that's all that mattered.

Disciple of Fate wrote:

I posted it too, didn't get a lot of traction. Like I said, Trump must have gotten a spooky visit from his 'nuclear uncle'. Some amazing backtracking, perhaps his staff is slowly convincing him that Kim really isn't as honest as Trump was seduce... I mean led to believe.

Perhaps, the backtracking of the last 24 hours has been...whipsaw

whembly wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
whembly wrote:
skyth wrote:
In other news, the NRA was caught colluding with a Russian spy and less than 24 hours later the NRA is no longer required to disclose it's donors...what a coincidance.

Caught colluding... how?

Fund raising with an unregistered foreign agent I believe.

Did they *know* she was a spy? Or, did she...yaknow... used her spy skillz to pretend she's someone she's not?

I mean, it's not like she was going to run around with a sign around her head saying "I'm a government agent!", but she did just about everything short of that. A Russian 20-something grad student generally doesn't just end up in high end US political circles, pushing pro-russia policies and arranging trips to Russia, out of nowhere

**Disciple of Fate**

Vaktathi wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:

I posted it too, didn't get a lot of traction. Like I said, Trump must have gotten a spooky visit from his 'nuclear uncle'. Some amazing backtracking, perhaps his staff is slowly convincing him that Kim really isn't as honest as Trump was seduce... I mean led to believe.
Perhaps, the backtracking of the last 24 hours has been...whipsaw

Well if he is at it anyway he might as well go all the way, next thing you know he will start denying ever talking to Kim or Putin, silly MSM, Finland doesn't even exist that's just Santa's make belief land!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:
Actual success or achievement does not matter to Trump or his supporters. Just declaring victory is the main thing.

Mission accomplished, as they say

**BaronIveagh**

whembly wrote:

Did they *know* she was a spy? Or, did she...yaknow... used her spy skillz to pretend she's someone she's not?

Well, about that....

Seems her handler, Alexander Torshin, is a lifetime NRA member, and makes no bones about being a Russian agent himself. Maria, well known among NRA brass to be his girl Friday,

You know, THIS Alexander Torshin:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-09/mobster-or-central-banker-spanish-cops-allege-this-russian-both

**whembly**

Da Boss wrote:
Actual success or achievement does not matter to Trump or his supporters. Just declaring victory is the main thing.

I disagree...

Most Trump supporters shrug their shoulders for things he says... simple points out the things his administration have done.

**Spinner**

whembly wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Actual success or achievement does not matter to Trump or his supporters. Just declaring victory is the main thing.

I disagree...

Most Trump supporters shrug their shoulders for things he says... simple points out the things his administration have done.

Abducted children?

**Disciple of Fate**

Man, that most be an incredibly short list, basically involving pointing at things Obama did and Trump reversed.

**whembly**

Spinner wrote:
whembly wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Actual success or achievement does not matter to Trump or his supporters. Just declaring victory is the main thing.

I disagree...

Most Trump supporters shrug their shoulders for things he says... simple points out the things his administration have done.

Abducted children?

You mean, separating children when someone breaks the law?

**sebster**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Good post from Sebster.

Thanks.

We haven't had American or British Conservatives since Thatcher and Reagan.

That isn't quite right. After Reagan there was GHW Bush, who was a straight up conservative. Nor was Reagan actually much of a conservative - his embrace of whackadoo supply side economics wasn't conservative at all. In a sense the decline of the GOP, at least on a policy/academic sense, really began with the movement conservatism that Reagan first brought to the fore.

And for the record, the Democrats are just as bad and ideologically devoid.

The Democrats policy positions are pretty messy right now, but that's true of just about every party in opposition in US political history. It's just how the system there works, remember there is nothing like the party discipline of Westminster politics.

But this certainly does not make the Democrats just as bad. The Democrats are not attacking lifelong FBI members over trumped up bs, just to provide cover to an obviously guilty president. The Democrats did not just have a Russian agent arrested after spending years operating within their party systems. No Democrat was just named as having requested and received Russian intelligence on their opponent, but a Republican congressman was.

When Trump stops being useful to the GOP, they will drop him.

The GOP is not running this show, free to drop when they want. But the GOP is hostage to the Donald. The base is strongly loyal to Trump, but just about everyone else in the GOP has underwater popularity. If any of them turn on Trump, then the base turns on them, and that leaves with no voters at all.

**jouso**

godardc wrote:
In France it is a fixed amount of money, 25 or 30, you have to go to the city hall to get a new one, where do you buy yours in Netherland ? Very surpised there are different costs !

It's 10 Euro in Spain.

Plus even an expired ID card is a valid form of ID even though technically you can still be fined for having an expired ID card.

Driving licenses in the old format (the pink booklet) weren't a valid form of ID but the new credit card size format is as the number is the same on both.