US & NA Politics Thread

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Disciple of Fate**

Easy E wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
I hope enough people wake up from this senseless political nihilism in the US, but we will see, sad though.

I don;t thinkt he nihilism is just political. I think it is also cultural.

I don't necesarily think it is, there is the perception that 'our culture' is dissapearing, but culture is fluid, we have an entirely different culture from our grandparents. Sure some elements are the same but the idea of cultural nihilism is based on thinking that people can hold onto something that has always been subject to change. You can't even get people to agree on what the defenitive American culture even is.

**Easy E**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Easy E wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
I hope enough people wake up from this senseless political nihilism in the US, but we will see, sad though.

I don;t thinkt he nihilism is just political. I think it is also cultural.

I don't necesarily think it is, there is the perception that 'our culture' is dissapearing, but culture is fluid, we have an entirely different culture from our grandparents. Sure some elements are the same but the idea of cultural nihilism is based on thinking that people can hold onto something that has always been subject to change.

Let me define my meanign of "Culture of Nihilism"- It is a defining characteristic int eh culture that "Nothing Matters".

Therefore, I do not see it as simple cultural change, but as a shift int eh culture that represents Nihilism as opposed to the loss of a former culture. So, i would argue that the culture has in fact changed, and that fluid change ahas been to Nihilism itself.

**Disciple of Fate**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Let's be brutally honest here.

Before Trump, US foreign policy gave us:

The Iraq and Afghanistan debacle.

Torture and rendition.

Guantanamo Bay.

Civilians killed by Obama's drone strikes.

Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos going up in smoke, and various CIA backed coups all over South America etc etc

So when people say that Trump is upsetting the international apple cart, I have to laugh. Trump is a logical continuation of what went before him.

Laugh? They are right, all of the above was not directed at allies or trying as hard to undermine its own system. Its not a logical continuation, its doing a 180 on the last 70 years. How is the first President actively undermining the US abroad a continuation? We have had a few less than genius presidents before, but like this?

**KTG17**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Let's be brutally honest here.

Before Trump, US foreign policy gave us:

The Iraq and Afghanistan debacle.

Torture and rendition.

Guantanamo Bay.

Civilians killed by Obama's drone strikes.

Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos going up in smoke, and various CIA backed coups all over South America etc etc

So when people say that Trump is upsetting the international apple cart, I have to laugh. Trump is a logical continuation of what went before him.

I actually think Trump wants peace more than most presidents before him. He certainly has hot spots he could unleash on if he wanted to go that route. But he is trying to avoid conflict with North Korea by talking, even though its doubtful that will come to anything. Lord knows what people would say if he didn't bother. Even with China he is trying to give them a chance to play fair before playing hardball on tariffs. Russia is the same thing. He grew up in the Cold War. Most young people today don't really grasp nuclear war because its been all about terrorism for 20 years. There was a time when mutually assured destruction was on the forefront of everyone's minds. I am sure Trump remembers that. That thinking might be a little dated, but if you remove Putin, is Russia just as terrible? Some elements, but not with your average Russian. Trump has done business there and no doubt likes some of them. I am sure he thinks if he can get along with them, so can others. I don't think Obama had any ties there, so it was easier for him to distance himself.

I am no fan of the Russian government nor its intentions, but I can see Trump's point of view. I also know that whatever positives might come from improving relations wont last long either.

But I do think the vocal point of Trump's focus is on China, and everything else is taking a back seat to that.

Trump is usually better in interviews than he is on a podium. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/07/20/watch-cnbcs-full-exclusive-interview-with-president-donald-trump.html

**Disciple of Fate**

Easy E wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Easy E wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
I hope enough people wake up from this senseless political nihilism in the US, but we will see, sad though.

I don;t thinkt he nihilism is just political. I think it is also cultural.

I don't necesarily think it is, there is the perception that 'our culture' is dissapearing, but culture is fluid, we have an entirely different culture from our grandparents. Sure some elements are the same but the idea of cultural nihilism is based on thinking that people can hold onto something that has always been subject to change.

Let me define my meanign of "Culture of Nihilism"- It is a defining characteristic int eh culture that "Nothing Matters".

Therefore, I do not see it as simple cultural change, but as a shift int eh culture that represents Nihilism as opposed to the loss of a former culture. So, i would argue that the culture has in fact changed, and that fluid change ahas been to Nihilism itself.

Ah ok, I read the first comment as cultural nihilism, not culture of nihilism. But then its kind of a chicken or egg question, did politics push that change or did that change push politics? Its noticable here a little, but that is mostly politics nurturing self interest to get voters, nihilistic in a sense of 'feth you got mine' mindset.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not going to go to deep into this, but Trump's actions in regard to ZTE don't really seem to promote the idea Trump is trying to make China play fair.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Let's be brutally honest here.

Before Trump, US foreign policy gave us:

The Iraq and Afghanistan debacle.

Torture and rendition.

Guantanamo Bay.

Civilians killed by Obama's drone strikes.

Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos going up in smoke, and various CIA backed coups all over South America etc etc

So when people say that Trump is upsetting the international apple cart, I have to laugh. Trump is a logical continuation of what went before him.

Laugh? They are right, all of the above was not directed at allies or trying as hard to undermine its own system. Its not a logical continuation, its doing a 180 on the last 70 years. How is the first President actively undermining the US abroad a continuation? We have had a few less than genius presidents before, but like this?

Trump is not the first POTUS to ask NATO allies to cough up more money on their defence. Both GW Bush and Obama were critical of the lack of defence spending in Europe.

Eisenhower threw Britain and France under a bus with Suez.

On the eve of the Falklands War, the USA was 50/50 on backing Britain, its closest ally. It was only when the British fleet set sail did the Americans fully back us.

**KTG17**

This is worth watching too.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/watch-cnbcs-full-interview-with-steve-bannon-at-delivering-alpha.html

I actually agree with a lot of what I have seen Steve Bannon say in interviews. I am kind of late to the show on him though, but I am having a hard time finding something I really disagree with him on.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

KTG17 wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Let's be brutally honest here.

Before Trump, US foreign policy gave us:

The Iraq and Afghanistan debacle.

Torture and rendition.

Guantanamo Bay.

Civilians killed by Obama's drone strikes.

Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos going up in smoke, and various CIA backed coups all over South America etc etc

So when people say that Trump is upsetting the international apple cart, I have to laugh. Trump is a logical continuation of what went before him.

I actually think Trump wants peace more than most presidents before him. He certainly has hot spots he could unleash on if he wanted to go that route. But he is trying to avoid conflict with North Korea by talking, even though its doubtful that will come to anything. Lord knows what people would say if he didn't bother. Even with China he is trying to give them a chance to play fair before playing hardball on tariffs. Russia is the same thing. He grew up in the Cold War. Most young people today don't really grasp nuclear war because its been all about terrorism for 20 years. There was a time when mutually assured destruction was on the forefront of everyone's minds. I am sure Trump remembers that. That thinking might be a little dated, but if you remove Putin, is Russia just as terrible? Some elements, but not with your average Russian. Trump has done business there and no doubt likes some of them. I am sure he thinks if he can get along with them, so can others. I don't think Obama had any ties there, so it was easier for him to distance himself.

I am no fan of the Russian government nor its intentions, but I can see Trump's point of view. I also know that whatever positives might come from improving relations wont last long either.

But I do think the vocal point of Trump's focus is on China, and everything else is taking a back seat to that.

Trump is usually better in interviews than he is on a podium. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/07/20/watch-cnbcs-full-exclusive-interview-with-president-donald-trump.html

I've always said that the USa should never roll up the white flag for anybody, and that goes for Russia.

But given that the USA and Russia could wipe out the world many times over with their respective nuclear arsenals, I see nothing wrong with at least some kind of working-relationship there.

Hell, even during the Cold War, both sides knew where to draw the line.

**KTG17**

Watch the Bannon interview. It sums up what is going on pretty well.

**Disciple of Fate**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Let's be brutally honest here.

Before Trump, US foreign policy gave us:

The Iraq and Afghanistan debacle.

Torture and rendition.

Guantanamo Bay.

Civilians killed by Obama's drone strikes.

Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos going up in smoke, and various CIA backed coups all over South America etc etc

So when people say that Trump is upsetting the international apple cart, I have to laugh. Trump is a logical continuation of what went before him.

Laugh? They are right, all of the above was not directed at allies or trying as hard to undermine its own system. Its not a logical continuation, its doing a 180 on the last 70 years. How is the first President actively undermining the US abroad a continuation? We have had a few less than genius presidents before, but like this?

Trump is not the first POTUS to ask NATO allies to cough up more money on their defence. Both GW Bush and Obama were critical of the lack of defence spending in Europe.

Eisenhower threw Britain and France under a bus with Suez.

On the eve of the Falklands War, the USA was 50/50 on backing Britain, its closest ally. It was only when the British fleet set sail did the Americans fully back us.

But asking them for more money compared to whatever this is supposed to be is worlds apart. He insults them, he berates them, he has his staff saying they deserve a place in hell. Sure, you can be critical, but they are still your allies, Trump seems to forget that.

Eisenhower threw Britain and France under the bus because he was looking at the bigger picture, Trump does it for no reason except that he gets mad.

There is a difference between approaching issues in question while keeping an eye on what would be best for American hegemony (both Argentina and the UK being allies of the US at the time) and just because you can do it. What did this achieve for the US, instead of just what it did for Trump?

**BrotherGecko**

Disciple of Fate wrote:It might be demoralizing, but it should also be incredibly motivating. What does it say about you as a voter if you're content to let a quarter of the population who doesn't care about trivialities such as objective facts run your country and you just stay at home because your candidate just can't woo you with their way of words? I hope enough people wake up from this senseless political nihilism in the US, but we will see, sad though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherGecko wrote:
I am interested in the years following Trump and his effect on international relations theory.

While I don't think Trump has a favored school of thought, from the outside looking in he seems to be both a irrational realist and realism in action. He is projecting American anxiety on the world which is helping is some way to relieve it here in the states and he is also not supporting liberal and neo-liberal institutions in the expected manner of a realist. All the while seemingly committing policies that have a good chance of producing negative results on the country.

So while a realist would forsake international institutions for benefit, Trump seems to be doing it for disadvantage but at the same time doing things realism theorists (I wish I could recall some of them at this time by name) have been saying the US should do at some point.

But neorealists from a international theory perspective care little for neoliberal institutions because true power is wielded by the state, not some outside institution, which was more expressed by GW Bush and the UN in regards to Iraq (although neoconservatism has some elements of classical realism). Supporting them is more of a neoliberalist approach to international relations, or neoliberal institutionalism if you will. If anything Trump is drifting more towards hardcore classical realism (as in outdated, not only about power but his own perception in and of the world, still doesn't fit well though). He is drifting further into realism than any president since WW2.

The theorist you're thinking about that might sort of align vaguely is Mearsheimer (which as an offensive realist and who wrote quite a bit on China and the US should fit Trump more than a defensive realist like Waltz). But that would be hard to pin down as Trump's international relations approach isn't rational, while that is the assumed starting position in the first place.

I miss typed on my phone. I had intended to say that Trump supports liberal/neoliberal institutions in the expected way of a realist. In that he will use what he thinks benefits himself or others important to him. However, at this time I'd say it's irrational to abadon international institutions that benefit the US and are bases of it's power projection currently.

I do have Mearsheimer in mind, thank you but there are some more. But I'm at work.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Let's be brutally honest here.

Before Trump, US foreign policy gave us:

The Iraq and Afghanistan debacle.

Torture and rendition.

Guantanamo Bay.

Civilians killed by Obama's drone strikes.

Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos going up in smoke, and various CIA backed coups all over South America etc etc

So when people say that Trump is upsetting the international apple cart, I have to laugh. Trump is a logical continuation of what went before him.

I'm not trying to be a bdag but none of that is really as pointed as you think where it comes to theory. Foreign policy theory already knows that stuff and either spends it's time rationalizing why it happens (realism) or explains how it happens and in some cases searches for ways to prevent those thing. But you can't stop everything and no theory actually says to do any of those things at any time. Furthermore while the many countries have used neoliberal and liberal theory for foreign policy for their own benefit, for the most part it has been entirely realism in action.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

@BrotherGecko

The point I'm trying to make is that US foreign policy has been a shambles since the fall of the Berlin Wall, and short of hitting the red button, I don't see how Trump could make it any worse.

Take Crimea for example. It would be a very hard sell to the US public to get them to send their sons and daughters over to die in the Ukraine.

**Disciple of Fate**

BrotherGecko wrote:

I miss typed on my phone. I had intended to say that Trump supports liberal/neoliberal institutions in the expected way of a realist. In that he will use what he thinks benefits himself or others important to him. However, at this time I'd say it's irrational to abadon international institutions that benefit the US and are bases of it's power projection currently.

I do have Mearsheimer in mind, thank you but there are some more. But I'm at work.

Ah ok that makes sense. But personal benefit instead of national benefit doesn't really fall neatly into these theories. I fully agree with yoh.

Mearsheimer is just the most vocal one I guess which would sort of line up ok-ish, I wonder if he has written something on Trump, should see when I'm home. But there are indeed plenty more, larger countries like the US have no shortage of neorealist academics/theorists

**Da Boss**

Apparently 80% of republican voters are happy with how Trump dealt with Putin.

Hahahaha. They really have lost any claim to being the party of strong, pro-America patriots.

**Crispy78**

This is a fun little tweet.

https://twitter.com/th3j35t3r/status/1020136475298414592?s=19

**Disciple of Fate**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@BrotherGecko

The point I'm trying to make is that US foreign policy has been a shambles since the fall of the Berlin Wall, and short of hitting the red button, I don't see how Trump could make it any worse.

Take Crimea for example. It would be a very hard sell to the US public to get them to send their sons and daughters over to die in the Ukraine.

Just like any war though. The US public was terrified that thousands of US troops would die to liberate Kuwait. Vietnam eventually got the same backlash. Its how you edge yourself into the conflict that is important, if that had been a civilian airliner full of US citizens that would have generated quite some public support for example. US foreign policy is for the most part no better or worse than during the Cold War, its just transitioning into different realities.

**Easy E**

Da Boss wrote:
Apparently 80% of republican voters are happy with how Trump dealt with Putin.

Hahahaha. They really have lost any claim to being the party of strong, pro-America patriots.

Yeah, they also have very high approval ratings of Putin compared to Dems IIRC.

**Crazyterran**

Trump seems To be the American personification of their ‘yeah, but what does that do for me?’ Attitude towards government and politics. The rest of the world seems to do great with publicly funded healthcare and education, but here you guys are trying to get rid of it or undermine it.

/shrug. Hopefully his government doesn’t throw the train off the tracks.

**Da Boss**

I think Trumps trade policies run a pretty good risk of causing another global recession.

**KTG17**

China's economy is one giant Ponzi scheme, and would no doubt cause issues when it collapses, but oh well. Something has to be done. I think confronting them is great, and I don't doubt the US will come out stronger in the end because of this.

Watch the Bannon interview. He address it. Its a fascinating interview. And it does a great job explaining why Trump got elected. Bannon represents Trump's base.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/07/19/full-interview-former-trump-advisor-steve-bannon.html

Its also interesting the link between towns that have lost factories to China and the rise of the opioid crisis in those areas. Makes perfect sense. I have been to some of those areas and there is nothing going on. Liberals talk about drug treatment or taxing the rich but nothing about getting those jobs back. Those areas are the areas that got Trump elected.

Also:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_156738.htm

All Allies have heard President Trump’s message loud and clear.
We understand that this American president is very serious about defence spending.
And this is having a clear impact.

After years of decline, when Allies were cutting billions,
now they are adding billions.
Before, the trend was down.
Now, the trend is up.
In fact, since President Trump took office, European Allies and Canada have added an additional 41 billion dollars to their defence spending.

And all Allies have committed to raise this number substantially.
So we are stepping up as never before.

Allowing US spending to go down.

Can't say Trump isn't having a positive effect...

**Mozzyfuzzy**

They'd started increasing under Obama, but I guess that's easy to forget when you're a schi....independent.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

KTG17 wrote:

Can't say Trump isn't having a positive effect...

Given they agreed to commit to amounts they'd previously agreed to. Yeah, we can.

When do we get to drop the defense budget anyway?

And on the topic of Bannon, you at all familiar with his history?

**Disciple of Fate**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
KTG17 wrote:

Can't say Trump isn't having a positive effect...

Given they agreed to commit to amounts they'd previously agreed to. Yeah, we can.

When do we get to drop the defense budget anyway?

And on the topic of Bannon, you at all familiar with his history?

Between the China stuff, getting jobs back and now Bannon I feel like he's not even trying anymore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
They'd started increasing under Obama, but I guess that's easy to forget when you're a schi....independent.

You forget they promised him huge increases! Easily as big as his hands!

**Da Boss**

KTG17: I actually agree with you about these old industrial areas that have lost out due to capitalism taking jobs where they are cheaper.

However, I see this as a consequence of America's deep mistrust of democratic socialism. The Democrats are more of a free market loving but socially liberal party, they obviously do not care about people living in these depressed communities, which is why they have drifted away from the Democrats. This is because the Democrats are not really a left wing party or a party of the worker, just a party of a particular section of the elite.
From where I am sitting the Republicans pretend to be a party of the average worker while just caring about a different section of the elite.

I do not think Trump is trying to fix these people's lives, I think he has no empathy or understanding for them, and I think he does not care about them at all. I reckon this trade war is a blunt instrument where a scalpel was needed, a quick and simple fix where these problems are complex and require long term engagement.

**Disciple of Fate**

Unless the US tarrifs the entire world those jobs won't come back. Its just damaging relations and multiple economies. The TPP was meant to combat Chinese trade practices, but TPP bad because it doesn't screw over US allies enough! The idea that these companies left because of these trade agreements is just far too simplistic.

**Frazzled**

And...CNN is reporting Cohen made recordings of he and Trump discussing the payments to the porno star.

Correction: this is a new payment to a former Playboy playmate. Fox is now saying its the first of "many" tapes. Wooo...

Jeez how many intelligence agencies have massive dirt on this guy?

**KTG17**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
KTG17 wrote:

Can't say Trump isn't having a positive effect...

Given they agreed to commit to amounts they'd previously agreed to. Yeah, we can.

When do we get to drop the defense budget anyway?

And on the topic of Bannon, you at all familiar with his history?

Well, as I said:

KTG17 wrote:
This is worth watching too.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/watch-cnbcs-full-interview-with-steve-bannon-at-delivering-alpha.html

I actually agree with a lot of what I have seen Steve Bannon say in interviews. I am kind of late to the show on him though, but I am having a hard time finding something I really disagree with him on.

Regardless of his history, what he is saying on economic and international affairs I have been waiting to hear for over 20 years. If you have an issue with his history, can you find me a democrat or republican of any influence who is saying the same things now?

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
They'd started increasing under Obama, but I guess that's easy to forget when you're a schi....independent.

A what? Go on and say it, don't be a coward and hide behind your own censorship. Besides, who am I going believe here? Some random on the internet or the leader of NATO?

**Da Boss**

It is also not an uniquely American experience to be struggling with jobs going overseas to cheaper markets. It is one of the defining features of late stage capitalism, and no one seems to have a particularly decent solution to the problem.

In Europe we are struggling with similar issues in many places, especially those that had a large manufacturing tradition. The North of England, the North of France, Nord-Rhein Westfalen in Germany, all have similar problems.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

Da Boss wrote:
they obviously do not care about people living in these depressed communities, which is why they have drifted away from the Democrats. This is because the Democrats are not really a left wing party or a party of the worker

I'm genuinely curious what would be done to change this. The old mechanism for democrats working with workers was unions, and we don't have those much anymore.

A large number of democratic policies favored these people, but they've been shot down time and time again because they don't do so obviously. I mean, universal health care, social safety nets, labor rights, these are democratic issues, but they get shot down time and time again by republicans.

**Disciple of Fate**

You believe Stoltenberg? You know, the head of NATO, good thing he didn't back up Trump.