Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Vaktathi wrote: Brutal, it will be interesting to see what exactly stuck and why did not.
I'm reminded of the Batman sketch, it may have been posted earlier in the thread, where the Joker talks about how he's crazy enough to take on Batman, he's not crazy enough to take on the IRS
On another note, Trump's former personal attorney and his former campaign manager have been convicted of fraud crimes on literally the same day, that's...an accomplishment.
The Jury couldn't decide on at least one of the ten charges due to their uncertainty about what qualified as a 'shelf company'
So not a single "not guilty" verdict out of the bunch?
Nope.
Guilty on 8 charges (which were the black & white variants... ie, not failing tax returns, etc...)
Mistrial on the other 10 (which, were pretty complicated to begin with)
Have they said if they will go for a retrial on those charges?
He's already on the hook for up to ~90 years in prison (he won't get all of that, but surely for the rest of his life)
He'll get a commutation or pardon shortly after Nov. 3rd, 2020. I mean... is that in any doubt? Especially after Sheriff Joe got his pardon for literally obstruction of justice and ignoring a judge's injunction. Which in my mind is worst than Manafort's white collar crime as Joe was fething around with civil rights.
As for Cohen... I'm spit balling here as my buddy brought up good point. Cohen pleading guilty on those charges does a few things:
1) He'll get a lighter sentence than if he takes this to court.
2) The guilty plea on his various tax violations is very much a "white collar" crime, and as such wouldn't likely get the full blown asset forfeiture penalties. That's gotta factor in a big way as to why he's pleading guilty, because if he fights this in court and then loses his assets in a court loss... he won't get those back even *if* Trump pardons him.
3) The pleading guilty to compaign finance charges really seems like the prosecution requiring "Admit that this was in pursuit of Trump's election" in order for them to accept a plea on these charges (for paying off them pornstars). Again, breaking campaign finance laws don't usually include jail time (definitely 6+ figure fines tho).
4) At first I thought it was weird... but, he's not agreeing to work with the prosecutor in lieu of this plead agreement probably indicates the prosecuturial policies of the SDNY FBI department, and Cohen's desire to "close" this chapter as soon as possible... because...
5) Who are we kidding... Cohen's getting a pardon soon. If not soon, definitely by Nov. 4th 2020.
Contrary to popular opinion, pleading guilty often leads to longer sentences.
A trial gives the chance for both the jury and the judge to see the defendant as a person, rather than asking for a quick sentencing.
Plea bargaining is a slightly different animal - pleading guilty to a lesser charge, to avoid being faced with the greater charge.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
I'm really wanting to quote Picard from Insurrection: "How many does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm?"
What are you implying about an article with the headline; "Authorities: Iowa student killed by Mexican in US illegally" in conjunction with your Picard quote?
Please, be really specific.
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
There is a rather growing list of people killed by illegal immigrants from several countries. Is that specific enough for you? This is well documented, and not anything new. I'm not even TOUCHING the massive list of other violent crimes committed by people who shouldn't have even been IN the country when it happened, just focusing on the murders ALONE should be enough to give anyone who lives here pause.
I understand why it doesn't give YOU pause, you aren't even on this continent.
There is a rather growing list of people killed by illegal immigrants from several countries. Is that specific enough for you? This is well documented, and not anything new. I'm not even TOUCHING the massive list of other violent crimes committed by people who shouldn't have even been IN the country when it happened, just focusing on the murders ALONE should be enough to give anyone who lives here pause.
I understand why it doesn't give YOU pause, you aren't even on this continent.
There's a large list of people killed by legal citizens born here in the US, what's your point?
(also, citation needed for your claim)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 00:34:22
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
There is a rather growing list of people killed by illegal immigrants from several countries. Is that specific enough for you? This is well documented, and not anything new. I'm not even TOUCHING the massive list of other violent crimes committed by people who shouldn't have even been IN the country when it happened, just focusing on the murders ALONE should be enough to give anyone who lives here pause.
I understand why it doesn't give YOU pause, you aren't even on this continent.
[Citation needed]
Usual caveats of "Fox News and blogposts don't count". Find actual, cited facts.
Of course the list is growing, since it is a number that can never go down....
Is that number disproportionate with the growing list of people murdered by natural born citizens? is the real question....
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 01:25:53
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Okay so what do you want to do about the violent crimes committed by citizens? Or does that not fit your rhetoric
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/22 01:41:08
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
I could have sworn that we WERE doing something about the violent crimes committed by citizens. We call it the Criminal Justice System. If you can find a way to make those crimes preventable, then I'm all ears. Violent crimes by illegal aliens are preventable insofar as preventing breaches of our border would eliminate them from the equation.
I know you're trying to spin this as racism or xenophobia. Let me give you a little more insight. I'm Lithuanian by genetics, American by birth. My family immigrated here legally in the beginning of the 20th century when Lenin came to power. If there are illegal Lithuanians here, they need gone, and better checks put in place to keep them from coming in without using the proper channels. A violent crime by an illegal immigrant is equally as egregious and preventable regardless of the immigrant's genetic make up or country of origin.
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
The intent of the first article is to dispel the myth that illegal immigrants have a higher propensity for violent crimes, and that the conflated numbers provided by Trump were inaccurate. Once again, I made reference to neither. I provided numbers showing the amount of violent crimes documented by illegal aliens. Don't look for something in my comments that isn't there.
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong?
No, but when people make stupid claims they are usually asked to source them before people believe them.
Especially when the person sourcing their claims while bitching about it ends up posting sources proving his own claim wrong.
Proving my own claim wrong? Show me which of those sources stated that illegals haven't committed violent crimes, or show me that there was a sudden stop in the crime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 01:51:42
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
The intent of the first article is to dispel the myth that illegal immigrants have a higher propensity for violent crimes, and that the conflated numbers provided by Trump were inaccurate. Once again, I made reference to neither. I provided numbers showing the amount of violent crimes documented by illegal aliens. Don't look for something in my comments that isn't there.
You clearly intended to use it as "look at all the bad immigrants!"
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
d-usa wrote: Just because the thing isn’t mentioned, doesn’t mean it isn’t the cornerstone of the complaint.
If people only cared about crimes in general, why even mention a specific subgroup at all.
But by getting rid of illegals, the overall violent crime rate will rise. So that will teach them!
To be fair, most violent crimes in the United States have a domestic origin. The main problem when it comes to illegals is the area of drug smuggling ("mules"), engaging with people smugglers ("coyotes", also illegal under Federal law), destruction of private property of U.S. citizens near the border, and violation of our sovereign borders (illegal). While this is serious business, and I believe it needs to be curbed or stamped out (a pipe dream on the second one), most illegals are not violent criminals (not counting the very few violent ex-cons coming here from Mexico).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 02:51:39
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
The intent of the first article is to dispel the myth that illegal immigrants have a higher propensity for violent crimes, and that the conflated numbers provided by Trump were inaccurate. Once again, I made reference to neither. I provided numbers showing the amount of violent crimes documented by illegal aliens. Don't look for something in my comments that isn't there.
You clearly intended to use it as "look at all the bad immigrants!"
I clearly intended to use it as "This is a preventable issue", not unlike drunk driving deaths are a preventable issue. The difference is that someone's feels are caught in a rut because some of the illegal aliens are not committing these crimes. Never once did I dispute that. However, that ENTIRE LIST of crimes would be gone if our immigration issues were handled.
I'm a rule of law guy, pure and simple. I don't give a flying feth about anyone's "feels", I care about adherence to the law. The examples I showed were flippant disregard to rule of law, AND to US sovereignty as a whole. Why is it so hard to see that?
d-usa wrote:Just because the thing isn’t mentioned, doesn’t mean it isn’t the cornerstone of the complaint.
If people only cared about crimes in general, why even mention a specific subgroup at all.
But by getting rid of illegals, the overall violent crime rate will rise. So that will teach them!
The cornerstones of my complaint are as follows: Rule of law, preventable crimes. Nothing more. Anything else is a projection on YOUR part to devalue my opinions or political beliefs.
And as far as crimes in general, is not effort made to discourage or circumvent all crime? From education to community engagement to basic concepts of morality to the discouraging nature of the penal system itself. Yet you latch on to the one aspect that catches you in the "feels" as it isn't a solution that caters to your OWN political beliefs.
Also, what they hell is your last line even trying to say? How would crime rise if a sizeable number of people who commit crimes repeatedly were suddenly taken out of the equation? That's like saying breathalizers installed in cars to prevent drunk driving would increase the number of drunk driving fatalities.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Of course the list is growing, since it is a number that can never go down....
Is that number disproportionate with the growing list of people murdered by natural born citizens? is the real question....
The Auld Grump
The fun part about that question is the Olympian levels of contortion made to dodge it.
Check the FBI crime stats sometime. You'll find that illegal immigrants make up a vanishingly small amount of the violent crimes prosecuted in a year. You want someone who makes up a bigger percentage? The police.
So, why are you not hot to ban the pigs? I mean, if police commit a percentage of violent crimes per year, the obvious solution is to do away with police.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
knowledge of subjects that should be of interest to the special counsel and is more than happy to tell the special counsel all that he knows, not just about the obvious possibility of a conspiracy to collude and corrupt the American democracy system in the 2016 election which the Trump Tower meeting was all about, but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not Mr. Trump knew ahead of time about that crime and even cheered it on.
Now, Lanny Davis is a wee bit of a character, and normally wouldn't link to anything from Maddow, but that's a ah...bold statement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 02:57:30
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
knowledge of subjects that should be of interest to the special counsel and is more than happy to tell the special counsel all that he knows, not just about the obvious possibility of a conspiracy to collude and corrupt the American democracy system in the 2016 election which the Trump Tower meeting was all about, but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not Mr. Trump knew ahead of time about that crime and even cheered it on.
Now, Lanny Davis is a wee bit of a character, and normally wouldn't link to anything from Maddow, but that's a ah...bold statement.
My question is, did he get Trump saying those things on tape?
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
knowledge of subjects that should be of interest to the special counsel and is more than happy to tell the special counsel all that he knows, not just about the obvious possibility of a conspiracy to collude and corrupt the American democracy system in the 2016 election which the Trump Tower meeting was all about, but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not Mr. Trump knew ahead of time about that crime and even cheered it on.
Now, Lanny Davis is a wee bit of a character, and normally wouldn't link to anything from Maddow, but that's a ah...bold statement.
Honestly I believe it when I see it. Cohen has more than a little drama queen in him, and I wouldn't put it past him to just make stuff up to maintain even negative spotlight. Honestly Trump seems to have surrounded himself with such people over the course of his life. Cohen. Giuliani. Omarosa. Some people don't seem to care that they're being made the fool so long as they get to bask in the infamy.
I do find it highly amusing that leftists are all of a sudden pro-capitialism, pro-private/free enterprise, and pro-private property when it comes to censoring ideas that they find distateful, or supressing rights that they think don't exist for the individual. But repeal equal opportunities/employment laws for private business and other private institutions, or let a private university start suppressing ALL political speech, and the left would throw a bitchfit that would reach to high heaven.
Being a gakstain is not a protected class nor a political belief. Therein lies the difference.
While it was a rather simplistic (read: unecessary and somewhat juvenile) thing do do, and totally out of left field, it was anything but racist.
Being surprised that a Hispanic officer speaks fluent English is very much a racist thing.
One person's "gakstain" is another's political belief. I despise wannabe communists and anarchists with a passion, and consider them to be braindead, know-nothing pricks. But I wouldn't think for one minute of disallowing them a voice on a public platform.
And the idea of a "protected class" is one that contradicts the mantra of "equal oppurtunity" and "equal protection under the law". It's an outdated concept that should've died back in the 1990's.
As for the last, that's just your opinion, not gospel fact. He praised him for speaking fluent English, as opposed to being surprised that he spoke English at all. Trump may be a lot of things, including trollish and juvenile. But "stupid" isn't one of them.
On a similar note, you would probably be surprised how many hispanic U.S. citizens cannot speak English, either very well or at all. That being said, in my humble opinion, praising somebody you would safely assume speaks good English (because, you know, the person's current employment), just because they can do so, is a dumb thing to do. But racist? Nah.
BaronIveagh wrote: Check the FBI crime stats sometime. You'll find that illegal immigrants make up a vanishingly small amount of the violent crimes prosecuted in a year. You want someone who makes up a bigger percentage? The police.
So, why are you not hot to ban the pigs? I mean, if police commit a percentage of violent crimes per year, the obvious solution is to do away with police.
In a way, I'd love to. If I were in power, I'd mandate that all police be pulled off the streets for a mandatory 180 days of reeducation, retraining, and incorporation of a different approach to potentially lethal situations. I would forbid ANY police from patrolling or responding to any calls during that 120 days.
knowledge of subjects that should be of interest to the special counsel and is more than happy to tell the special counsel all that he knows, not just about the obvious possibility of a conspiracy to collude and corrupt the American democracy system in the 2016 election which the Trump Tower meeting was all about, but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not Mr. Trump knew ahead of time about that crime and even cheered it on.
Now, Lanny Davis is a wee bit of a character, and normally wouldn't link to anything from Maddow, but that's a ah...bold statement.
Honestly I believe it when I see it. Cohen has more than a little drama queen in him, and I wouldn't put it past him to just make stuff up to maintain even negative spotlight. Honestly Trump seems to have surrounded himself with such people over the course of his life. Cohen. Giuliani. Omarosa. Some people don't seem to care that they're being made the fool so long as they get to bask in the infamy.
Lanny is a goof too... so, add the two together and whole knows what else will pop out.
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
The intent of the first article is to dispel the myth that illegal immigrants have a higher propensity for violent crimes, and that the conflated numbers provided by Trump were inaccurate. Once again, I made reference to neither. I provided numbers showing the amount of violent crimes documented by illegal aliens. Don't look for something in my comments that isn't there.
You clearly intended to use it as "look at all the bad immigrants!"
I clearly intended to use it as "This is a preventable issue", not unlike drunk driving deaths are a preventable issue. The difference is that someone's feels are caught in a rut because some of the illegal aliens are not committing these crimes. Never once did I dispute that. However, that ENTIRE LIST of crimes would be gone if our immigration issues were handled.
I'm a rule of law guy, pure and simple. I don't give a flying feth about anyone's "feels", I care about adherence to the law. The examples I showed were flippant disregard to rule of law, AND to US sovereignty as a whole. Why is it so hard to see that?
If violent crime is a "preventable issue" then just about everything is. So why single this guy out then? Why single this one group out? Why aren't you up in arms over every single murder, theft, or jaywalker if you're such a rule of law guy? Is it because this guy is an illegal and we need a wall to keep them out?
On another note, you tried to cherry pick examples to fit your narrative, when in reality your narrative is generally a rare occurrence and the sources you cited even say so. So, instead of accepting that fact, you just double down on the "illegals = bad" narrative and try to pass it off as being "anti-violent crime"
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
Just Tony wrote: I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
How do you feel about that kind of argument, if I sub in "Gun Violence" for "Illegal Immigration"?
When guns get up and shoot people unassisted, we'll make that comparison. A gun is a tool, it has no conscience or will to kill. How many stabbings happen worldwide, I don't see you trying to slyly sneak in a cutlery control debate. You want to talk about false equivalences, lets make a comparison that is equivocal. Replace illegal aliens in any of my earlier posts with mentally ill persons. How many mentally ill persons have committed crimes? A fraction of the total percentage of people suffering from mental health issues. However, if you provide oversight for the mentally ill, you can circumvent some of those crimes. Not all, it's not a perfect world. But I'd be willing to say most. Apply that to immigration. Do you remember the Polish doctor that was deported from Michigan? He had multiple DUIs. Multiple. Only sheer luck kept any of those from becoming fatalities. How many times was he handled without any sort of recourse? Had that person been monitored or actually processed when he first became an issue, how much would have changed? The now infamous San Francisco pier shooting is another great example. Whether you feel there was malice or incompetence that caused him to discharge the weapon at the pier is irrelevant at this point, the fact that he was caught and released rather than deported IS relevant. THAT is the cornerstone of my argument. THAT is what apparently nobody else can see.
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
The intent of the first article is to dispel the myth that illegal immigrants have a higher propensity for violent crimes, and that the conflated numbers provided by Trump were inaccurate. Once again, I made reference to neither. I provided numbers showing the amount of violent crimes documented by illegal aliens. Don't look for something in my comments that isn't there.
You clearly intended to use it as "look at all the bad immigrants!"
I clearly intended to use it as "This is a preventable issue", not unlike drunk driving deaths are a preventable issue. The difference is that someone's feels are caught in a rut because some of the illegal aliens are not committing these crimes. Never once did I dispute that. However, that ENTIRE LIST of crimes would be gone if our immigration issues were handled.
I'm a rule of law guy, pure and simple. I don't give a flying feth about anyone's "feels", I care about adherence to the law. The examples I showed were flippant disregard to rule of law, AND to US sovereignty as a whole. Why is it so hard to see that?
If violent crime is a "preventable issue" then just about everything is. So why single this guy out then? Why single this one group out? Why aren't you up in arms over every single murder, theft, or jaywalker if you're such a rule of law guy? Is it because this guy is an illegal and we need a wall to keep them out?
On another note, you tried to cherry pick examples to fit your narrative, when in reality your narrative is generally a rare occurrence and the sources you cited even say so. So, instead of accepting that fact, you just double down on the "illegals = bad" narrative and try to pass it off as being "anti-violent crime"
Stop projecting. "Illegals=bad" is a massive distillation of what I was trying to say. If distracted driving led to fatalities, I'd be all for installing jammers that keep you from getting signal while your car is in gear, if they made those sorts of things. ANY situation that makes violent crime preventable should be considered. Is it any different than being anti-gun? Is it any different than preventing people who get repeated DUIs from having a license? I fail to see how it can be any different with the exception of the "human" side of the immigration issue. If someone is starving and homeless, should they be completely excused from stealing everything in YOUR home to sell for food, and to eat what food you DID have? Same exact principle. Applying emotion to a rule of law issue does a disservice to both sides of the argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I never said I'm not up in arms over other crimes. I got my license suspended because my brother gave my name when he got pulled over and he didn't appear for the court date. I had JUST started working at Cat at the time. Do you know what I did when that happened? I didn't drive until the issue was resolved. Period. Twice he pulled that stunt. The first one, I was suspended for a week, the second had me unable to drive for 28 days. I was juggling college AND work on the second occasion, and the prosecutor somehow didn't drop the charges after my brother turned himself in. I had to attempt to ride buses, mooch rides at work, whatever it took. My wife had to get up off of bedrest from having her tubes reconnected solely because I refused to break the law. Even what others would have broken without thinking twice about.
Don't presume to judge my intentions. You know nothing.
At the end of the day, people are dead that wouldn't be dead if our borders were better enforced. If you refuse to acknowlege that portion of it, then we can chalk this up to "not arguing in good faith".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/22 04:34:14
So did Google shut down for all of you, or is this the usual MO when you know you're wrong? And before the usual rhetoric about inflated numbers by the POTUS on the campaign trail, I ask again, if illegal immigration can be curtailed, stymied, or even prevented, then how many of these violent crimes are too many?
Did you read the first thing you cited? Probably not, or you wouldn't have used it:
from http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 "In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves"
I only skimmed the last source, but it seems to agree with the above.
The intent of the first article is to dispel the myth that illegal immigrants have a higher propensity for violent crimes, and that the conflated numbers provided by Trump were inaccurate. Once again, I made reference to neither. I provided numbers showing the amount of violent crimes documented by illegal aliens. Don't look for something in my comments that isn't there.
You clearly intended to use it as "look at all the bad immigrants!"
I clearly intended to use it as "This is a preventable issue", not unlike drunk driving deaths are a preventable issue. The difference is that someone's feels are caught in a rut because some of the illegal aliens are not committing these crimes. Never once did I dispute that. However, that ENTIRE LIST of crimes would be gone if our immigration issues were handled.
I'm a rule of law guy, pure and simple. I don't give a flying feth about anyone's "feels", I care about adherence to the law. The examples I showed were flippant disregard to rule of law, AND to US sovereignty as a whole. Why is it so hard to see that?
If violent crime is a "preventable issue" then just about everything is. So why single this guy out then? Why single this one group out? Why aren't you up in arms over every single murder, theft, or jaywalker if you're such a rule of law guy? Is it because this guy is an illegal and we need a wall to keep them out?
On another note, you tried to cherry pick examples to fit your narrative, when in reality your narrative is generally a rare occurrence and the sources you cited even say so. So, instead of accepting that fact, you just double down on the "illegals = bad" narrative and try to pass it off as being "anti-violent crime"
Stop projecting. "Illegals=bad" is a massive distillation of what I was trying to say. If distracted driving led to fatalities, I'd be all for installing jammers that keep you from getting signal while your car is in gear, if they made those sorts of things. ANY situation that makes violent crime preventable should be considered. Is it any different than being anti-gun? Is it any different than preventing people who get repeated DUIs from having a license? I fail to see how it can be any different with the exception of the "human" side of the immigration issue. If someone is starving and homeless, should they be completely excused from stealing everything in YOUR home to sell for food, and to eat what food you DID have? Same exact principle. Applying emotion to a rule of law issue does a disservice to both sides of the argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I never said I'm not up in arms over other crimes. I got my license suspended because my brother gave my name when he got pulled over and he didn't appear for the court date. I had JUST started working at Cat at the time. Do you know what I did when that happened? I didn't drive until the issue was resolved. Period. Twice he pulled that stunt. The first one, I was suspended for a week, the second had me unable to drive for 28 days. I was juggling college AND work on the second occasion, and the prosecutor somehow didn't drop the charges after my brother turned himself in. I had to attempt to ride buses, mooch rides at work, whatever it took. My wife had to get up off of bedrest from having her tubes reconnected solely because I refused to break the law. Even what others would have broken without thinking twice about.
Don't presume to judge my intentions. You know nothing.
At the end of the day, people are dead that wouldn't be dead if our borders were better enforced. If you refuse to acknowlege that portion of it, then we can chalk this up to "not arguing in good faith".
"At the end of the day people are dead" True, but you're acting like illegals are responsible for a rather large number of violent deaths, instead of being relatively insignificant number of them in any sort of comparison. I'm not saying to totally ignore, not prosecute them, or anything of the sort, but you're blowing this issue way out of proportion as illegals commit fewer violent crimes than the average person and it's appearing as build the wall, illegals bad!
Also nice dodge on the gun violence there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 04:48:24
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
18.000 
3.500 
8.200 
3.300 
2.400 
3.100 
5.500 
2.500 
3.200 
3.000
