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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
s. Sure, they aren't, in the sense that they aren't card-carrying members of the NSDAP,

I know a few that are in fact, card carrying members of Amerikadeutscher Volksbund which was/is the US branch of NSDAP, so I think we can say they're equivalent.

The splitting of hairs is the bastion of the desperate

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sen-john-mccain-independent-voice-gop-establishment-dies-81-n790971

John McCain, who shed a playboy image in his youth to become a fighter pilot, revered prisoner of war and both an independent voice in the Republican Party and its 2008 presidential nominee, died on Saturday, little more than a year after he was told he had brain cancer. He was 81.

McCain’s office said in a statement "Senator John Sidney McCain III died at 4:28 p.m. on August 25, 2018." He announced on July 19, 2017, that he had been diagnosed with a glioblastoma, an aggressive type of brain tumor. Earlier this week his family announced he was discontinuing treatment.

Hopefully that will be the last we hear of him.

While i disagreed with him on many things, I can still say he was a good man. And that's not something I can say about most people.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Hopefully that will be the last we hear of him.

Rosebuddy, I may have disagreed with McCain but I respected him. I lot more than I respect you, particularly after slamming a man dying of cancer. My Grandfather died of cancer, so I can sympathize with his family.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Hopefully that will be the last we hear of him.

To be honest there were probably people hoping we heard the last of you when you went on your little rant defending racists

Obama issues a statement.

Reported Rosebuddy for being a jerk. That lack of respect isn’t needed.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Reported Rosebuddy for being a jerk. That lack of respect isn’t needed.

Agreed, and likewise. As i said, I disagreed with McCain, but was willing to admit, unlike the President, that he was a genuine American hero, and I think that the world will be a lesser place without him.


Interestingly, both Bush and Obama are set to give the eulogy. Trump is specifically not invited.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Agreed, and likewise. As i said, I disagreed with McCain, but was willing to admit, unlike the President, that he was a genuine American hero, and I think that the world will be a lesser place without him.

Yeah. All kinds of Dakka rules might get broken around here, but that? That's just low class even by US Politics standards.

Pretty shocking. Guy announced he was discontinuing treatment yesterday and still seemed like he might have a few years left. IDK. Maybe he was just ready to go.

snip

Never mind, just read what Rosebuddy Said, I’m done dealing with him, he is a ideological zealot and being glad someone just died of cancer is abhorrent.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Reported Rosebuddy for being a jerk. That lack of respect isn’t needed.

Agreed, and likewise. As i said, I disagreed with McCain, but was willing to admit, unlike the President, that he was a genuine American hero, and I think that the world will be a lesser place without him.


Interestingly, both Bush and Obama are set to give the eulogy. Trump is specifically not invited.

I wonder why Mccain left off Cadet Bonespurs off his list.... Maybe its calling him a coward? Making fun of McCain at every opportunity... Being an abomination to the values of our country? Or maybe its because the President is a complete and utter doofus. Probably a mix of all that and more. McCain made it no secret.... How much he hated him. I would leave him off as well, and that is gravely insulting... and amazing. Good on Mccain even death he still showed Trump the middle finger

I may of disagreed with Mccain, but man I saw him as honorable type of guy. He served our country long and well and his no vote against healthcare is still one of the most bravest things I've seen in the senate.

Good Man, Bad Politician.

I hope his family is doing well and celebrating the life he lived.

A very good obituary from The Guardian.

Fine, you want a longer reply? You get one, now that I'm back at a proper keyboard.

 Formosa wrote:
The Nazis have commited genocide, the Alt right has not

I didn't say they have, I said the alt-right wants to. This is not a fact you can dispute, as you yourself have stated that the alt-right wants a white ethno-state. They are technically innocent of genocide in the same way that (most) modern Nazis are, as they weren't alive in the 1930s-40s. That is, they want to have it, but they haven't been able to get enough power to do it.

again lets use your logic here, anyone on the left should be stopped utterly in there tracks because communism has killed millions

Uh, no, that is not the same at all.

Communism is an economic system. Communist dictatorships have killed people, but so have capitalist dictatorships. And they have killed people in the same way: removing enemies of the dictator to maintain the dictator's hold on power. Murder is not a necessary part of communism, most communists would be perfectly happy with a peaceful transition to a communist state by passing the appropriate laws.

Nazism, like white supremacism or whatever other label you want to give it, is a murder system. Extermination of the "lesser" races is its most important goal. If you showed a Nazi a Nazi state where genocide is not occurring the Nazi would wonder WTF is wrong and start working to implement genocide.

Please stop making a nonsense comparison between the two.

the "genocidal Extremists" statement can just as easily be directed at the regressive left using your logic.

Uh, no. Even by your absurd "communism is murder" argument it still isn't genocide. Genocide is not just a lot of murders, it refers specifically to the targeted destruction of a race/culture. The left does not contain "genocidal extremists", outside of maybe at most some obscure blogger with single-digit readers.

the alt right are NOT Nazis, the alt right HAVE nazis within the loosely based group, both groups have an overlap in their beliefs but one does not equate the other, now refute this point if you can or again I ask you to politely stop derailing the discussion.

If derailing is your concern you are free to stop your weird nitpicking of the difference between "Nazis" and "people who want to commit genocide to create a white ethno-state, but haven't been caught waving a swastika flag in public". But you and I both know why you won't: because you need to draw your false equivalence between the left and the right, and handwave away the fact that the alt-right is a bunch of (as you admit) genocidal extremists.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
While i disagreed with him on many things, I can still say he was a good man. And that's not something I can say about most people.

He worked as a politician to spread war and deny healthcare to millions. That is not the mark of a good man. The adage that you should not speak ill of the dead applies to, say, your aunt who struggled with alcoholism, not to wealthy and powerful people who used their influence to make the world worse.

 Peregrine wrote:
Fine, you want a longer reply? You get one, now that I'm back at a proper keyboard.

 Formosa wrote:
The Nazis have commited genocide, the Alt right has not

I didn't say they have, I said the alt-right wants to. This is not a fact you can dispute, as you yourself have stated that the alt-right wants a white ethno-state. They are technically innocent of genocide in the same way that (most) modern Nazis are, as they weren't alive in the 1930s-40s. That is, they want to have it, but they haven't been able to get enough power to do it.

again lets use your logic here, anyone on the left should be stopped utterly in there tracks because communism has killed millions

Uh, no, that is not the same at all.

Communism is an economic system. Communist dictatorships have killed people, but so have capitalist dictatorships. And they have killed people in the same way: removing enemies of the dictator to maintain the dictator's hold on power. Murder is not a necessary part of communism, most communists would be perfectly happy with a peaceful transition to a communist state by passing the appropriate laws.

Nazism, like white supremacism or whatever other label you want to give it, is a murder system. Extermination of the "lesser" races is its most important goal. If you showed a Nazi a Nazi state where genocide is not occurring the Nazi would wonder WTF is wrong and start working to implement genocide.

Please stop making a nonsense comparison between the two.

the "genocidal Extremists" statement can just as easily be directed at the regressive left using your logic.

Uh, no. Even by your absurd "communism is murder" argument it still isn't genocide. Genocide is not just a lot of murders, it refers specifically to the targeted destruction of a race/culture. The left does not contain "genocidal extremists", outside of maybe at most some obscure blogger with single-digit readers.

the alt right are NOT Nazis, the alt right HAVE nazis within the loosely based group, both groups have an overlap in their beliefs but one does not equate the other, now refute this point if you can or again I ask you to politely stop derailing the discussion.

If derailing is your concern you are free to stop your weird nitpicking of the difference between "Nazis" and "people who want to commit genocide to create a white ethno-state, but haven't been caught waving a swastika flag in public". But you and I both know why you won't: because you need to draw your false equivalence between the left and the right, and handwave away the fact that the alt-right is a bunch of (as you admit) genocidal extremists.

The alt right wants to, ok, so does the far left though social engineering, oppressor/oppressed dogma, thought policing etc. just like the alt right, I’m just repeating myself here but I’m happy to see both disappear into obscurity, are you peregrine ? As to a white ethno state, sure, they want it, they will never have the power to do it though, so you stating that they are guilty of genocide is utterly moot and without merit.


And Again you make a statement based on your skewed view of the world and attempt to pass it off as my view, if you are finding fault with the above logic then you only need look at yourself, not me, I am literally using your own train of thought to reach a logical conclusion.

Also if you honestly believe that communism has not led to the deaths of millions then it is for one of two very simple reasons, either you know your wrong and are doubling down in an attempt to hide it, or you are ignorant of the well documented history on the subject. It seems the key difference between us is that I have the ability to see when a dogma goes too far, like fascism or communism in the 20th century, where as you only
See fascism as the problem and are happy to wave away communism’s atrocities.

Your views on communism show me you lack a fundamental understanding of your own ideology, you didn’t even know it was a political system ... that’s worrying to say the least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

So to recap what we have had so far, you don’t know what he alt right is, you don’t know what communism is, you believe that communism is innocent of the atrocities of the 20th century, you believe people on the right are nazis (although that may have been Rosebuddy, sorry if I got that mixed up), you claim it’s nit picking to want clear and well defined terms and to use correct terminology when describing people, ironically a very collectivist standpoint, you are against carful use of language to describe your political opponents so as not to water down the impact of “loaded” words, so I feel I must ask this very important question peregrine, do you have any principles at all?

 Formosa wrote:
The alt right wants to, ok, so does the far left though social engineering, oppressor/oppressed dogma, thought policing etc.

Do you honestly think that if you post enough right-wing buzzwords you can somehow change the facts? Stop handwaving away the white supremacist ideology of the alt-right and trying to pretend that the left is the same. None of those things are equivalent to exterminating the undesirable races to produce a white state.

As to a white ethno state, sure, they want it, they will never have the power to do it though, so you stating that they are guilty of genocide is utterly moot and without merit.

I said they are guilty of wanting genocide, stop misrepresenting what I said. From a moral point of view arguing "but they haven't succeeded at genocide yet" is an incredibly weak defense of a person/group. It may be a true statement to make, but if that's what you have to resort to then it's probably best to conclude that the person/group in question is worthless that does not belong in a decent society.

Also if you honestly believe that communism has not led to the deaths of millions then it is for one of two very simple reasons

Sigh. You apparently didn't read the post you quoted, because I clearly stated that communist dictatorships killed a lot of people. The point is that, unlike Nazism and similar white supremacist ideologies, murder is not the end goal of communism. Nor is it an inherent requirement of communism. A person can advocate for communism without advocating genocide. A person can not advocate for Nazism without genocide.

Your views on communism show me you lack a fundamental understanding of your own ideology, you didn’t even know it was a political system ...

...

Apparently this is the "make up" part of the argument? Do you honestly think that I don't know that communism is political, or did you just think you could make a condescending comment and score some points because I didn't explicitly say the word "political"?

you don’t know what he alt right is

Remember, I'm using your definition here. You explicitly stated that the alt right wants a white ethno-state, and genocide is an inherent requirement for that.

you believe people on the right are nazis (although that may have been Rosebuddy, sorry if I got that mixed up)

Perhaps if you're going to preemptively apologize for an accusation you should consider it a suggestion that you should go back and check the facts? I never said that the right is all Nazis. I have specifically limited my accusations to white supremacists, which (as you have explicitly agreed with) the alt-right is. There are plenty of people on the right in general who are not white supremacists and who have nothing to fear from my accusations.

you claim it’s nit picking to want clear and well defined terms and to use correct terminology when describing people

It is nitpicking when the goal is to handwave away the fact that the alt-right is far worse than any relevant part of the left, using compelling arguments like "they share the Nazi goals of genociding their way to a white nation, but they haven't technically been seen in public with Nazi symbols yet".

 Formosa wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Fine, you want a longer reply? You get one, now that I'm back at a proper keyboard.

 Formosa wrote:
The Nazis have commited genocide, the Alt right has not

I didn't say they have, I said the alt-right wants to. This is not a fact you can dispute, as you yourself have stated that the alt-right wants a white ethno-state. They are technically innocent of genocide in the same way that (most) modern Nazis are, as they weren't alive in the 1930s-40s. That is, they want to have it, but they haven't been able to get enough power to do it.

again lets use your logic here, anyone on the left should be stopped utterly in there tracks because communism has killed millions

Uh, no, that is not the same at all.

Communism is an economic system. Communist dictatorships have killed people, but so have capitalist dictatorships. And they have killed people in the same way: removing enemies of the dictator to maintain the dictator's hold on power. Murder is not a necessary part of communism, most communists would be perfectly happy with a peaceful transition to a communist state by passing the appropriate laws.

Nazism, like white supremacism or whatever other label you want to give it, is a murder system. Extermination of the "lesser" races is its most important goal. If you showed a Nazi a Nazi state where genocide is not occurring the Nazi would wonder WTF is wrong and start working to implement genocide.

Please stop making a nonsense comparison between the two.

the "genocidal Extremists" statement can just as easily be directed at the regressive left using your logic.

Uh, no. Even by your absurd "communism is murder" argument it still isn't genocide. Genocide is not just a lot of murders, it refers specifically to the targeted destruction of a race/culture. The left does not contain "genocidal extremists", outside of maybe at most some obscure blogger with single-digit readers.

the alt right are NOT Nazis, the alt right HAVE nazis within the loosely based group, both groups have an overlap in their beliefs but one does not equate the other, now refute this point if you can or again I ask you to politely stop derailing the discussion.

If derailing is your concern you are free to stop your weird nitpicking of the difference between "Nazis" and "people who want to commit genocide to create a white ethno-state, but haven't been caught waving a swastika flag in public". But you and I both know why you won't: because you need to draw your false equivalence between the left and the right, and handwave away the fact that the alt-right is a bunch of (as you admit) genocidal extremists.

The alt right wants to, ok, so does the far left though social engineering, oppressor/oppressed dogma, thought policing etc. just like the alt right, I’m just repeating myself here but I’m happy to see both disappear into obscurity, are you peregrine ? As to a white ethno state, sure, they want it, they will never have the power to do it though, so you stating that they are guilty of genocide is utterly moot and without merit.

the alt right have become a larger force in recent years where their held beliefs DO matter, and helped put people in this administration, can you say the same of these supposed far lefts? oh and also citations for these genocidal far lefts?

And Again you make a statement based on your skewed view of the world and attempt to pass it off as my view, if you are finding fault with the above logic then you only need look at yourself, not me, I am literally using your own train of thought to reach a logical conclusion.

"stop misrepresenting me by trying to think like me, while I misrepresent you by trying to think like you"

Also if you honestly believe that communism has not led to the deaths of millions then it is for one of two very simple reasons, either you know your wrong and are doubling down in an attempt to hide it, or you are ignorant of the well documented history on the subject. It seems the key difference between us is that I have the ability to see when a dogma goes too far, like fascism or communism in the 20th century, where as you only
See fascism as the problem and are happy to wave away communism’s atrocities.

where was the hand waving? he pointed out a difference, as he sees it, and acknowledged the destruction of communist dictatorships, wheres the same for you and capitalism?

Your views on communism show me you lack a fundamental understanding of your own ideology, you didn’t even know it was a political system ... that’s worrying to say the least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

So to recap what we have had so far, you don’t know what he alt right is, you don’t know what communism is, you believe that communism is innocent of the atrocities of the 20th century, you believe people on the right are nazis (although that may have been Rosebuddy, sorry if I got that mixed up), you claim it’s nit picking to want clear and well defined terms and to use correct terminology when describing people, ironically a very collectivist standpoint, you are against carful use of language to describe your political opponents so as not to water down the impact of “loaded” words, so I feel I must ask this very important question peregrine, do you have any principles at all?

did we read the same posts? way to misrepresent statements and add a thinly veiled personal attack.

sidenote, first attempt at a multiquote, I hope it worked decently enough to follow what I said.

You call them right wing buzzwords, interesting since it’s the far left terminology that they themselves use, next thing you will tell me that “intersectionality” is a right wing buzz word

I must admit this second one was a bit of a trap, one which you fell into quite nicely good sir, so by the same logic, claiming that communism/Marxism has been shown to inevitably lead to the deaths of millions, venuzuala being the most recent example, so again by your logic advocating for this ideology means you advocate genocide, which leads me to yet another point I have made time and time again, stop making facile arguments peregrine, I am literally using your own rhetoric on you.

Communism inevitably leads to deaths when applied on a large scale, mainly due to collectivism and the de humanisation of its political opponents through the lense of oppressor/oppressed as shown by Nazi germany (facist collectivism) and many many communist regimes in the last century, denying history will only doom us to repeat it.

Yes, you tried to pass it off as a purely an economic system, you have also denied several very clear issues with the ideology either through ignorance or though being disingenuous.

You are using “part” of THE definition, not my definition, and you claim that genocide is part of that, along the same line of thought, how do you make people share their wealth if they don’t want to in your communist society, what happens if they refuse to pay? Hmmm history shows us it’s not pleasant.

No I have not stated that the alt right are white supremacists, they also have white supremacists, they also have nationalists etc. Because I undertand what they are and the threat they pose, and finally you admit that not everyone on the right is bad, now all we need in an admission that the left has some real issues these days and we’re getting somewhere.

Interesting projection here, you claim the alt right is far worse that the far left, which is untrue, both are collectivist bear baiters who just want to stir up trouble for money and votes... power, both are extremely dangerous when taken to their logical conclusions, both are extremely racist, bigoted and heavily biased, i deride both sides of the political spectrum for their extremes, I just see the far left as more dangerous currently as it’s much much larger.

And finally, I ask again, what principles do you hold peregrine, if any.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@soundwave

Sorry it’s hard to multi quote on a phone, yes I too have seen a rising number of the far right and alt right in the last few years, as to the far left putting people in power, we have Jeremy corbyn over here so the far left has made in roads, however due to the way they have treated people there has been a backlash against the left in general, specifically in tr U.K. where the choice is left or far left it’s led to a general distrust of the government, it has also led to rise of far right (by U.K. standard) parties such as UKIP, which in the USA would just be a centrist party.

Ok fair one, I shouldn’t engage is such mocking tactics, I was just trying to show peregrine how absurd his stance is by parroting it back at him, it doesn’t help anyone so I will stop.

Had he admitted the dangers of communism and conceded that the current political environment in the far left is the same issue that led to the deaths of millions, then I would just leave t alone, but he still has not stated such a thing, he keeps avoiding it, as for capitalism, I’m not a social constructionist, while I don’t like absolute capitalism, it’s the best system we have at the moment.

We did read the same statements and it’s not a thinly veiled personal attack, I recapped what he has stated and asked what principles he holds, we may have the same principles for example and this could lead to a more common ground in future discussions, im happy to state my principles to start off.

 Formosa wrote:
I must admit this second one was a bit of a trap, one which you fell into quite nicely good sir, so by the same logic, claiming that communism/Marxism has been shown to inevitably lead to the deaths of millions, venuzuala being the most recent example, so again by your logic advocating for this ideology means you advocate genocide, which leads me to yet another point I have made time and time again, stop making facile arguments peregrine, I am literally using your own rhetoric on you.

WTF are you going on about here? Genocide has a meaning, and it is not "kill lots of people". It specifically refers to the targeted destruction of a race or culture. For someone who claims to be so concerned with accuracy of terms you sure are eager to apply the "genocide" label where it doesn't fit.

Yes, you tried to pass it off as a purely an economic system

...

No, you just think that if I don't explicitly say "political" then it must be excluded. Whether you call it economic or political it's still not a murder system like Nazism. Murder is not the primary goal of communism, no matter how you define it.

how do you make people share their wealth if they don’t want to in your communist society, what happens if they refuse to pay?

The same thing that happens if you refuse to share your wealth in a capitalist society. If you refuse to pay your taxes in the US you will eventually be arrested and thrown in jail, and if you resist arrest you will probably die in a shootout with the police. The only difference with communism is what exactly the tax rate is set at.

No I have not stated that the alt right are white supremacists

Please do not lie. Here is a direct quote of your words previously:

the Alt Right is a loosely joined group of people with all manner of right wing views with the main thing uniting them is the desire for Ethno states

That is an explicit statement that the unifying belief in the alt right is white supremacy.

now all we need in an admission that the left has some real issues these days and we’re getting somewhere.

Ah yes, both-sides-ism. We can't discuss the fact that there is a significant white supremacist element on the right these days unless we also complain about the left, because both sides must be equally bad.

you claim the alt right is far worse that the far left, which is untrue

Are you seriously going to argue that a white supremacist movement that advocates genocide for the creation of a white state is not worse than the left? Sorry, but that is utter insanity. Whatever flaws the left may have, they do not come anywhere near genocide.

And finally, I ask again, what principles do you hold peregrine, if any.

Lots of them, but that is not relevant to this discussion. For someone who claims to object to derailing a thread you sure seem eager to ask derailing questions.

 Formosa wrote:




Sorry it’s hard to multi quote on a phone,

I'm on a computer, I'm just more of a lurker

we have Jeremy corbyn over here

being as I'm not familiar with him, and wiki is so so, what would you say makes him in your mind "far left" that would equate to the current far right in US politics?

Had he admitted the dangers of communism and conceded that the current political environment in the far left is the same issue that led to the deaths of millions, then I would just leave t alone, but he still has not stated such a thing, he keeps avoiding it, as for capitalism, I’m not a social constructionist, while I don’t like absolute capitalism, it’s the best system we have at the moment.

he did acknowledge them though, when he said it was the action of communist dictatorships, at worst he shifted the blame in lieu of ignoring them. I'm not sure if you understood my point about capitalism, if your going to bring up death tolls of political and/or economic systems, you wouldnt want to have to defend capitalism as its deaths are pretty abysmal as well.
edit: and claiming the current politics is similar to the ussr in the 50s or china during a similar period is absolutely apples to oranges, we (the west) arent undergoing huge economic, social, and political changes like they were

We did read the same statements and it’s not a thinly veiled personal attack, I recapped what he has stated and asked what principles he holds, we may have the same principles for example and this could lead to a more common ground in future discussions, im happy to state my principles to start off.

sorry but it clearly reads as a rhetorical question to suggest that he has none, especially when you first posed the question.

I'm surprised people still try to hold up Venezuela as the inevitable consequence of socialism, as opposed to the inevitable consequence of what happens when you're overly reliant as a country on a single export when export prices collapse and you have a wannabe dictator in charge. Its just ordinary politics and economics, nothing especially tied to the left or right spectrum.

I'm more surprised no one has remarked at the attempt to equate Jeremy Corbyn and people chanting "Blut und Boden!" and people walking around with Swastika flags TBH.

..do you remember poor old Dan Quayle and the potatoe ?



https://twitter.com/JonathanBlitzer/status/1032360812596346880

Did the outcry over family separation surprise the Administration? Yes, official said. “The expectation was that the kids would go to Office of Refugee Resettlement, that the parents would get deported, & that no one would care.”

uh huh.

Putting sociopaths into power to own the libs.

BUT HER EMAILS!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm more surprised no one has remarked at the attempt to equate Jeremy Corbyn and people chanting "Blut und Boden!" and people walking around with Swastika flags TBH.

Considering Corbyn is only a step or two away from chanting blood and iron when it comes to the Jews

 Ustrello wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm more surprised no one has remarked at the attempt to equate Jeremy Corbyn and people chanting "Blut und Boden!" and people walking around with Swastika flags TBH.

Considering Corbyn is only a step or two away from chanting blood and iron when it comes to the Jews

Even if that characterisation were accurate that's still a step or two away. When things are a step or two away from each other they're not equivalent by definition. What's your point?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm more surprised no one has remarked at the attempt to equate Jeremy Corbyn and people chanting "Blut und Boden!" and people walking around with Swastika flags TBH.

Considering Corbyn is only a step or two away from chanting blood and iron when it comes to the Jews

Even if that characterisation were accurate that's still a step or two away. When things are a step or two away from each other they're not equivalent by definition. What's your point?

That Corbyn is a massive anti Semite and the leader of the second largest UK political party so the comparison is more apt than you all want to believe

See, in order for the "both sides are just as bad!" BS argument to work you'd have to completely ignore the fact that something that is less bad than something else isn't equally bad as that thing. It's a busted argument, full stop.