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fe40k wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
My Pods are pissed because all of the dust thats collected on them this past year.

Make them free. Burn a CP to use one. Fixed

Exactly - I've suggested this many times. When armies can deep strike for CP - drop pods CAN NOT COST POINTS lol.

Or, get this - they CAN cost points, because they DON'T cost CP.

:thinking:

Marines get both worlds; Infiltrate for CP, or Drop Pods for points.

What is a CP worth...is it worth anywhere near 70 points? NO. For 180 points you get 5 CP and 3 10 man infantry squads and 2 hq's. Even if you were just buying the points and not getting 3 very useful anti infantry units putting out a combined 120 str 3 shots that can hold objectives. The cost of a cp if 180 for 5 cp is the messure. Is 36 points. So should we start there for the drop pods cost? Then factor in the 12 wounds to 38 - the 4 shots to 120. This makes a drop pod worth maybe 10-20 points - not 70.

 Billagio wrote:
Not to mention other armies have drop pods (tyranids) do they get CP only ones as well?

It'd work a whole lot better than the current nid drop pod. So sure.

The other option of course is

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not to mention other armies have drop pods (tyranids) do they get CP only ones as well?

Tyranids have a Deep Strike stratagem I'm pretty sure.

Interesting, didnt know that

Well nids also have a drop pod that doesn't suck. It's called a Trygon and it's worth it's points without the ability to transport a troop unit.

They can basically give the trygon ability to any infantry unit if they are jorm. So yeah - they do have a DS stratagem.

 Billagio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not to mention other armies have drop pods (tyranids) do they get CP only ones as well?

Tyranids have a Deep Strike stratagem I'm pretty sure.

Interesting, didnt know that

Hive Fleet Jormungandr does, but it isn't as simple as just deep strike - it allows you to deep strike an Infantry unit alongside a Ravener brood or a Mawloc, Trygon or Trygon Prime that deep strikes using their abilities.

Also; do Marine tactics and stratagems seem "lackluster", only because they were the first ones to use them?

People think "everyone got what Marines got" - when the only reason they think that, is because Marines were the first army released with the same rules that EVERYONE uses.

They're referred to as "Chapter Tactics", just because they were the first to use UNIVERSAL tactics/stratagems. Sure, some are reworded or slightly different, but they're all cut from the same cloth.

I'm going to concede that GW gotten better at designing factions and armies as the edition goes on -- but that's not the whole story.

There's also the aspect of "Imperial" as a faction itself; if it weren't for that, armies would be better designed in a codex-inclusive only fashion, and players would also have to adapt to using different units, and different roles.

As it stands now - why take anything except Imperial Guard, plus whatever melee BA/SM etc units to plug holes and fill weaknesses that the IG codex has?

"It'll be great" they said. "Once your army's folded into the Vanilla Codex you'll get updates every edition and won't have to be a crappy army!" they said.

And now I'm an entitled whiner because I'm dissatisfied with my army getting shafted for the fourth edition in a row and I should just shut up and think of how the poor, oppressed Xenos never get anything nice ever and how awful and selfish I am for wanting an army that isn't "the same as everyone else, except worse".

Yeah, feth us Walrus. We try melee marines. Feth us.

They've shitcanned power armor again, just like in 2nd. The results are the same.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Not to mention other armies have drop pods (tyranids) do they get CP only ones as well?

Tyranids have a Deep Strike stratagem I'm pretty sure.

Interesting, didnt know that

Hive Fleet Jormungandr does, but it isn't as simple as just deep strike - it allows you to deep strike an Infantry unit alongside a Ravener brood or a Mawloc, Trygon or Trygon Prime that deep strikes using their abilities.

Yeah, Tyranids have a whole slurry of options for DS. Besides just the Flying stuff stuff they get:

Raveners: Who tunnel in themselves.
Trygon/Trygon-Primes: Which also tunnel in but can bring along a unit of troops (Which Tyranids have a ton of.)
Tyrannocyte: The Tyranid Drop Pod which can bring up to 20 infantry (single unit though), or a single monster. (Like a Super Drop Pod that can even deliver vehicles)
Jorm Stratagem: Which allows you to bring along any infantry alongside another burrowing unit for a CP. Which is also stackable without limit, I think. This allows for cheap DSing of all sorts of fun stuff, like Hive Guard and Zoanthropes.
For extra kicks they have a Deep Striking building that spawns spore mines and can sport decent guns.

So it's very easy for Tyranids to deep strike with disgusting amounts of models. Like if you wanted to pop up with 90 Devilgaunts for some reason, it doesn't take much.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
"It'll be great" they said. "Once your army's folded into the Vanilla Codex you'll get updates every edition and won't have to be a crappy army!" they said.

And now I'm an entitled whiner because I'm dissatisfied with my army getting shafted for the fourth edition in a row and I should just shut up and think of how the poor, oppressed Xenos never get anything nice ever and how awful and selfish I am for wanting an army that isn't "the same as everyone else, except worse".

Xenos life has been very poor though. Their models don't ever get updates - as a result your space marine army has to have bad rules.

That doesn't even make business sense. Of course, this is the company that made the 1999 wave serpent kit the best model in 6th.

A full Primaris Codex would make more sense.

Marines of all colours can be fixed in Chapter Approved and hence not clutter up the release schedule for those who actually need a new Codex.

Same with models - new Primaris are likely - Marines already have soooo many models.

Martel732 wrote:
That doesn't even make business sense. Of course, this is the company that made the 1999 wave serpent kit the best model in 6th.

It's almost like the randomly select the rules they make without understanding them. Then they don't even pay attention when they sell out of a model with good rules like they can't even figure out why people are buying them. The guy that makes eldar rules just plays dumb. "Hey man why are these wave serpents going out of stock cosntantly...that kit is like 15 years old?" "I don't know...they must really like the look of it".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
"It'll be great" they said. "Once your army's folded into the Vanilla Codex you'll get updates every edition and won't have to be a crappy army!" they said.

And now I'm an entitled whiner because I'm dissatisfied with my army getting shafted for the fourth edition in a row and I should just shut up and think of how the poor, oppressed Xenos never get anything nice ever and how awful and selfish I am for wanting an army that isn't "the same as everyone else, except worse".

So many people hate marines that we could have each marine cost 300 points at their current stats and those people would still be like “psh marines are fine you’re just spoiled lol.”

I’m hoping at the very least that chapter approved 2018 takes a long hard look at them. In the meantime I’m playing around with knights and guard.

fe40k wrote:
Also; do Marine tactics and stratagems seem "lackluster", only because they were the first ones to use them?

People think "everyone got what Marines got" - when the only reason they think that, is because Marines were the first army released with the same rules that EVERYONE uses.

They're referred to as "Chapter Tactics", just because they were the first to use UNIVERSAL tactics/stratagems. Sure, some are reworded or slightly different, but they're all cut from the same cloth.

I'm going to concede that GW gotten better at designing factions and armies as the edition goes on -- but that's not the whole story.

There's also the aspect of "Imperial" as a faction itself; if it weren't for that, armies would be better designed in a codex-inclusive only fashion, and players would also have to adapt to using different units, and different roles.

As it stands now - why take anything except Imperial Guard, plus whatever melee BA/SM etc units to plug holes and fill weaknesses that the IG codex has?

To some extent yes, to some extent no.

Several marine stratagems are heavily hampered by the fact that the constituent units suck, and the stratagem viewed on its own is fine. "longrange artillery unit" gets to autohit while "fast scout unit" is within 12" of the target. If you replace Whirlwinds and Land Speeders here with Basilisk and Scout Sentinel, you'd have an extremely solid stratagem. "Elite unit adds 1 to wound rolls with its gun for 1CP" is fine for any elite unit that is good....but that doesn't include Sternguard. Tremor Shells would be a fun little ability if it was worth including Thunderfire Cannons even remotely. nice little feth you to stuff like shining spears, red grief Reaver blob, etc.

But several are definitely underpowered for what they do. Auspex scan should either be 1cp or have the range restriction removed entirely. Tactical Flexiblity just needs a rework, or needs to be made far more open-ended (like say, combine OR divide any unit with chapter tactics regardless of unit size.) Wisdom of the Ancients should be rerolling all hits, or some totally different buff, marines have huge numbers of reroll hit auras running around.

Games Workshop pretty clearly ended up hit-and-miss with the marine stratagems and marine units, and ended up with a combination where even the stuff that could work ended up looking pretty bad. Even looking at, for example, Grey Knights or Admech, the stratagems work far better on average.

When it comes to CTs, applying them to vehicles would go a Looooooooooooooooong way to fixing them. A couple I might add a bit of a bonus to - Imp Fists and Black Templars should probably get some kind of extra bonus, like similar CTs other factions get (Saim Hann for example gets BT tactics plus move and fire heavy on jetbikes, so maybe BTs should get a bonus attack ont he charge or something.) Salamanders, Ultras, RG, and IH would probably all be functional if tanks got them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, feth us Walrus. We try melee marines. Feth us.

They've shitcanned power armor again, just like in 2nd. The results are the same.

Yes, this is an accurate representation of the overall sentiment in this "should marines get a second balance pass/second codex this edition" thread.

It's all a jeering crowd of blind-hate jackals clutching their xenos miniatures and spitting on your poor, permanently oppressed power armor.

"everybody sits in a circle, everybody reaches over to their right, everybody unzips their zipper, aaaaaand"

It's hard to say that Marines have been left out in the cold, when there's as many Space Marine (I+CSM) as there are books for all the other factions combined.

Sure, some books might be duds - good thing all the models are cross compatible.

Unlike for Xenos, some EDITIONS have been duds; as the one book they got didn't make the cut in terms of holding a candle to edition it was released in (if it was even released in the same edition at all - i remember when Xenos' went editions without a book release).

fe40k wrote:
It's hard to say that Marines have been left out in the cold, when there's as many Space Marine (I+CSM) as there are books for all the other factions combined.

Sure, some books might be duds - good thing all the models are cross compatible.

Unlike for Xenos, some EDITIONS have been duds; as the one book they got didn't make the cut in terms of holding a candle to edition it was released in (if it was even released in the same edition at all - i remember when Xenos' went editions without a book release).

So because it happened to a couple of factions before the players should just sit and deal with it? As a primary Necron player I shouldn't have to be defending the SM/CSM players so much, and yet here I am doing it.

fe40k wrote:
It's hard to say that Marines have been left out in the cold, when there's as many Space Marine (I+CSM) as there are books for all the other factions combined.

Sure, some books might be duds - good thing all the models are cross compatible.

Unlike for Xenos, some EDITIONS have been duds; as the one book they got didn't make the cut in terms of holding a candle to edition it was released in (if it was even released in the same edition at all - i remember when Xenos' went editions without a book release).

Didn’t your parents ever pull the “two wrongs don’t make a right” snap at you?

It’s kinda silly to take new player Bobby just starting his black templar and tell him “hey, your guys are gonna suck for a while, but you deserve it because other armies have sucked in the past.”

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
It's hard to say that Marines have been left out in the cold, when there's as many Space Marine (I+CSM) as there are books for all the other factions combined.

Sure, some books might be duds - good thing all the models are cross compatible.

Unlike for Xenos, some EDITIONS have been duds; as the one book they got didn't make the cut in terms of holding a candle to edition it was released in (if it was even released in the same edition at all - i remember when Xenos' went editions without a book release).

So because it happened to a couple of factions before the players should just sit and deal with it? As a primary Necron player I shouldn't have to be defending the SM/CSM players so much, and yet here I am doing it.

Fix Marines in Chaper Approved - why would you need to release another Codex to do this?

New Codexes should be for those factions who are still wating for their first one!

Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

It all depends. My local meta claims marines are "fine" because they can spam ven dreads and leviathan dreads. So what's your metric?

fe40k wrote:
Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

DA are the strongest. It's the only way marines can join the invo save party.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It all depends. My local meta claims marines are "fine" because they can spam ven dreads and leviathan dreads. So what's your metric?

Same metric I am using. I bring 3 imperial knights with my ultra marines and by ultra marines - I mean the lord commander of the entire imperium.

fe40k wrote:
Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

Yes, but for the most part, it has nothing to do with the cross-compatible models, and often the stuff they share (marine statline/cost, terminators, various basic marine vehicles, shared stratagems) is what holds the faction back.

Deathwatch would be awesome with a fixed marine base cost, fixed drop pods and land raiders, and no crappy shared marine stratagems.

Don't get me wrong here, marine players: I fully agree that you have a bad codex right now, and I think it should be fixed. Where I disagree with you is where you start blatantly circlejerking ("eeeeeveryone thinks marines shouldn't be viable! They just want us to be crappy foreeeeever!") or where you think GW should slam the brakes on the current codex release schedule to make sure your faction is top tier before anyone else even gets a codex in the first place.

You should be (and almost certainly are) near the front of the line. But you should still be behind factions that have gotten zero releases since the launch of 8th. Space Wolves are playing out of like 5 pages in the index and have been for months.

I don't know who thinks what. Except for when people post blatant fiction. I don't think marines should get a codex before 2019 for sure. FAQ and CA fixes would probably be fine anyway.

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

Yes, but for the most part, it has nothing to do with the cross-compatible models, and often the stuff they share (marine statline/cost, terminators, various basic marine vehicles, shared stratagems) is what holds the faction back.

Deathwatch would be awesome with a fixed marine base cost, fixed drop pods and land raiders, and no crappy shared marine stratagems.

Don't get me wrong here, marine players: I fully agree that you have a bad codex right now, and I think it should be fixed. Where I disagree with you is where you start blatantly circlejerking ("eeeeeveryone thinks marines shouldn't be viable! They just want us to be crappy foreeeeever!") or where you think GW should slam the brakes on the current codex release schedule to make sure your faction is top tier before anyone else even gets a codex in the first place.

You should be (and almost certainly are) near the front of the line. But you should still be behind factions that have gotten zero releases since the launch of 8th. Space Wolves are playing out of like 5 pages in the index and have been for months.

If space wolf index wasn't better than codex space marines they would have my sympathy. Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist. Anyways. What is the point of CA - if they aren't going to fix bad armies and instead nerf them.

Look, I'm not saying Marines aren't relatively weaker; but that's a combination of factors.

1. Internal/external balance
2. Pricing, relative to other models, coupled with...
3. Rules of the edition; favoring certain types of statlines and rules (this edition is all about the 4ppm guardsman)

However, to say that they deserve a new codex because,

1. They have weak stratagems (more like a few "bad" ones)
2. Their "chapter tactics" are weaker than others
3. Certain portions of their codex are more viable than others
4. Points cost, model effectiveness, etc

- All factions suffer from the above problems. GK are the easiest ones to look at, because they should just be Custodes+ - "elite of the elite"+psychic powers; but they're more expensive Marines (which had pricing issues already), without anything but a weak psychic phase to go along with it.

GK have competitive models, but, not enough to build a realistic GK only army.

But look, all factions suffer from the problems that "shitcanned" Marines this edition.

I said they shitcanned power armor. Ven dread/leviathan spam works okay I guess. Power armor =/= marines. I just don't want to play that army, nor can I, since BA don't get ven dreads.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

Yes, but for the most part, it has nothing to do with the cross-compatible models, and often the stuff they share (marine statline/cost, terminators, various basic marine vehicles, shared stratagems) is what holds the faction back.

Deathwatch would be awesome with a fixed marine base cost, fixed drop pods and land raiders, and no crappy shared marine stratagems.

Don't get me wrong here, marine players: I fully agree that you have a bad codex right now, and I think it should be fixed. Where I disagree with you is where you start blatantly circlejerking ("eeeeeveryone thinks marines shouldn't be viable! They just want us to be crappy foreeeeever!") or where you think GW should slam the brakes on the current codex release schedule to make sure your faction is top tier before anyone else even gets a codex in the first place.

You should be (and almost certainly are) near the front of the line. But you should still be behind factions that have gotten zero releases since the launch of 8th. Space Wolves are playing out of like 5 pages in the index and have been for months.

If space wolf index wasn't better than codex space marines they would have my sympathy. Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist. Anyways. What is the point of CA - if they aren't going to fix bad armies and instead nerf them.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know who thinks what. Except for when people post blatant fiction. I don't think marines should get a codex before 2019 for sure. FAQ and CA fixes would probably be fine anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...

Martel732 wrote:
Except for when people post blatant fiction.

 Xenomancers wrote:
actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, feth us Walrus. We try melee marines. Feth us.

Yeah, I'M the one blindly going around hating on factions based on completely external factions than game balance.

Say, Martel, how do you feel about Riptides and Tau in general being allowed to be viable?

They're fine now. Why?

fe40k wrote:
Look, I'm not saying Marines aren't relatively weaker; but that's a combination of factors.

1. Internal/external balance
2. Pricing, relative to other models, coupled with...
3. Rules of the edition; favoring certain types of statlines and rules (this edition is all about the 4ppm guardsman)

However, to say that they deserve a new codex because,

1. They have weak stratagems (more like a few "bad" ones)
2. Their "chapter tactics" are weaker than others
3. Certain portions of their codex are more viable than others
4. Points cost, model effectiveness, etc

- All factions suffer from the above problems. GK are the easiest ones to look at, because they should just be Custodes+ - "elite of the elite"+psychic powers; but they're more expensive Marines (which had pricing issues already), without anything but a weak psychic phase to go along with it.

GK have competitive models, but, not enough to build a realistic GK only army.

But look, all factions suffer from the problems that "shitcanned" Marines this edition.

It's more like.
1.) They have no linchpin stratagems
2.) They have the same chapter tactics as other armies but it does not affect their tanks (tanks are important in this eddition because they are tough)
3.) 90% instead of 50% of their codex is unplayable. Plus what is playable is comparable to throw away units in other armies. Guilliman is the only model in the army another army could envy.
4.) 3-4 are bascailly the same thing. Furthmore - our effective models which wern't even as effective as other models within the imperium were nerfed.