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DW, BA & DA all have redeeming features. None are currently top end, especially since the beta dropped, but all offer interesting ways to play and some competitive units.

 grouchoben wrote:
DW, BA & DA all have redeeming features. None are currently top end, especially since the beta dropped, but all offer interesting ways to play and some competitive units.

This is as positive a statement as I'm willing to endorse.

Martel732 wrote:
They're fine now. Why?

Oh nothing, just in other threads where you're not ragging on others for gaking on marines' plight for past privilege you've opined that Riptides/occasionally Tau in general were so strong last edition they should be kept in a dumpster permanently.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

Yes, but for the most part, it has nothing to do with the cross-compatible models, and often the stuff they share (marine statline/cost, terminators, various basic marine vehicles, shared stratagems) is what holds the faction back.

Deathwatch would be awesome with a fixed marine base cost, fixed drop pods and land raiders, and no crappy shared marine stratagems.

Don't get me wrong here, marine players: I fully agree that you have a bad codex right now, and I think it should be fixed. Where I disagree with you is where you start blatantly circlejerking ("eeeeeveryone thinks marines shouldn't be viable! They just want us to be crappy foreeeeever!") or where you think GW should slam the brakes on the current codex release schedule to make sure your faction is top tier before anyone else even gets a codex in the first place.

You should be (and almost certainly are) near the front of the line. But you should still be behind factions that have gotten zero releases since the launch of 8th. Space Wolves are playing out of like 5 pages in the index and have been for months.

If space wolf index wasn't better than codex space marines they would have my sympathy. Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist. Anyways. What is the point of CA - if they aren't going to fix bad armies and instead nerf them.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know who thinks what. Except for when people post blatant fiction. I don't think marines should get a codex before 2019 for sure. FAQ and CA fixes would probably be fine anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...

Martel732 wrote:
Except for when people post blatant fiction.

 Xenomancers wrote:
actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, feth us Walrus. We try melee marines. Feth us.

Yeah, I'M the one blindly going around hating on factions based on completely external factions than game balance.

Say, Martel, how do you feel about Riptides and Tau in general being allowed to be viable?

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever. Martel will have my back on this I am sure. Space wolves are the main reason people have seen marines as being OP. It also adds insult to injury when you have to lose to stupid looking models riding oversized thunderwolves. Plus having to listen to all the stupid names of their units and weapons.

Frustration is a thing. And Riptides were really obnoxious. It's a minor irritation that their gun is better than the one on a LoW, but at least Tau players have to make choices with them now. They're downright under powered compared to ravagers.

I'm not even calling for Drukhari to get trashed. But if they are the new normal, marines should cost significantly less. GW needs to pick a normal and stick with it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Ok, let's ask the question like this:

Is EVERY Marine codex bad this edition?

Are there any that have redeeming features?

Yes, but for the most part, it has nothing to do with the cross-compatible models, and often the stuff they share (marine statline/cost, terminators, various basic marine vehicles, shared stratagems) is what holds the faction back.

Deathwatch would be awesome with a fixed marine base cost, fixed drop pods and land raiders, and no crappy shared marine stratagems.

Don't get me wrong here, marine players: I fully agree that you have a bad codex right now, and I think it should be fixed. Where I disagree with you is where you start blatantly circlejerking ("eeeeeveryone thinks marines shouldn't be viable! They just want us to be crappy foreeeeever!") or where you think GW should slam the brakes on the current codex release schedule to make sure your faction is top tier before anyone else even gets a codex in the first place.

You should be (and almost certainly are) near the front of the line. But you should still be behind factions that have gotten zero releases since the launch of 8th. Space Wolves are playing out of like 5 pages in the index and have been for months.

If space wolf index wasn't better than codex space marines they would have my sympathy. Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist. Anyways. What is the point of CA - if they aren't going to fix bad armies and instead nerf them.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know who thinks what. Except for when people post blatant fiction. I don't think marines should get a codex before 2019 for sure. FAQ and CA fixes would probably be fine anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also If I didn't know they were going to get the strongest codex in the edition I could care...

Martel732 wrote:
Except for when people post blatant fiction.

 Xenomancers wrote:
actaully feth the space wolves. The lamest army to ever exist.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, feth us Walrus. We try melee marines. Feth us.

Yeah, I'M the one blindly going around hating on factions based on completely external factions than game balance.

Say, Martel, how do you feel about Riptides and Tau in general being allowed to be viable?

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever. Martel will have my back on this I am sure. Space wolves are the main reason people have seen marines as being OP. It also adds insult to injury when you have to lose to stupid looking models riding oversized thunderwolves. Plus having to listen to all the stupid names of their units and weapons.

you KNOW that space wolves are going to get the most OP codex of the edition, and that is not blatant fiction? Gods, share what you know man, we've been without good rumors for so long!

How do you know they're not going to be held back in mid to low tier like all other marine codexes due to a combination of poor shared stratagems, broken pricing schemes for basic marine troops and poor shared units/wargear rules?

I can give a grimly detailed history of power armor efficacy in metas if we want to. However, SW are usually at the top of the power armor heap in one way or the other. Exceptions include 2nd ed, and 3.5 when it was CSM. We can argue all day about 7th whether barkstar was better than gladius. Both were inane builds necessary to challenge WK/scatbike insanity.

Pretty sure GW faps off the SW regularly in their studio. Maybe I'll be wrong in 8th, but the track record is almost as solid as Eldar.

Space wolves haven't been good since 5th, and aren't good now. It's also unlikely they'll be any good in the new book without sweeping buffs to all other Marine factions.

Marines will not get a new codex any time soon - maybe some new Primaris units and point adjustments in the CA this fall.

jcd386 wrote:
Space wolves haven't been good since 5th, and aren't good now. It's also unlikely they'll be any good in the new book without sweeping buffs to all other Marine factions.

How? Practially all their units are unique or have a unique build...it does not affect other marine factions. Plus - you are literally insane if you think they havn't been top dogs for a while now (no pun intended)

Top compared to what? Other power armor? Or everything?

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever.

*Snort. Only if you're counting armies made of giant herds of dogs. Otherwise no Grav and no Gladius in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
Top compared to what? Other power armor? Or everything?

Power armor. Plus - they have been competitive with other nonsense factions to.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever.

*Snort. Only if you're counting armies made of giant herds of dogs. Otherwise no Grav and no Gladius in 7th.

The army is called space wolves...armies of dogs is what you get.
It's ether an actaul dog.
A half dog/ half daemon
or a man with dog teeth.

Also - Grav was not what dakka makes it out to be in 7th. Daemons being as prevalent they were - it's mind boggling to be that people spammed the weapon. I guess some of you people never play against daemons. Plus...a marine unit with a free razor back - was about on the same level as a scat pack and ultimately useless against an invisible death-star.

 Primark G wrote:
Marines will not get a new codex any time soon - maybe some new Primaris units and point adjustments in the CA this fall.

What else do they need

The have all the models they will ever need - just some points / rules adjustments.

Space Wolves were good as support characters for Death Star armies but had no solid stand alone builds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Space wolves haven't been good since 5th, and aren't good now. It's also unlikely they'll be any good in the new book without sweeping buffs to all other Marine factions.

How? Practially all their units are unique or have a unique build...it does not affect other marine factions. Plus - you are literally insane if you think they havn't been top dogs for a while now (no pun intended)

uhhhhhhhhh no?

Grey hunters, Blood Claws, Wolf Scouts, Skyclaws, Terminators, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders, Stalkers, Hunters, Wolf Lords, Wolf Guard, Dreadnoughts, Long Fangs, and Venerable Dreadnoughts are all based on basic marine pricing.

Wulfen, the special characters, Murderfang, Santa Chariot, Fenrisian Wolves, 2x Unique Flyers, and Thunderwolves are actually unique.

Many units have some unique wargear options, but there's no reason to think that, for example, Wolf Guard Terminators are going to be any stronger than Deathwatch Terminators because they have limitless swaps.

They're still going to be crap, because their bodies will be priced like terminators, and their weaponry will be priced like terminators, straight out of the marine codex.

Also, there's no reason AT ALL to suggest SW are the best marine codex atm, or have been even close throughout 8th. We've seen like 2-3 space wolf lists in top tables vs how many guilliguns? Their performance has been identical to or worse than GK, which is probably at least partially due to them being in index, but FFS man you're just living in a fantasy world if you think the scary furries are currently convincing people somehow that marines are OP.

We're not in fifth edition anymore.

 Primark G wrote:
Space Wolves were good as support characters for Death Star armies but had no solid stand alone builds.

Wolfen...thunderwolves? Those units sucked huh?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Space Wolves were good as support characters for Death Star armies but had no solid stand alone builds.

Wolfen...thunderwolves? Those units sucked huh?

We talking about 7th ed? Yes. Did we ever see Wulfen accomplishing anything despite all the hype about how super op they were going to be?

Oh look it turns out when every melee army just casts invis and runs across the battlefield with the mario star pickup music playing, the only thing that really matters is how fast you move. And wulfen did not move particularly fast.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever.

*Snort. Only if you're counting armies made of giant herds of dogs. Otherwise no Grav and no Gladius in 7th.

The army is called space wolves...armies of dogs is what you get.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most Space Wolves players didn't exactly sign up for an army comprised primarily of literal dogs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever.

*Snort. Only if you're counting armies made of giant herds of dogs. Otherwise no Grav and no Gladius in 7th.

The army is called space wolves...armies of dogs is what you get.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most Space Wolves players didn't exactly sign up for an army comprised primarily of literal dogs.

Nope. Nobody ever looked at space wolves and went "cool, I'd like to play Marines with a viking flavor, that sounds awesome." nobody ever. They're all filthy, slavering furries who LOVE GWs wolf wolf of the wolf wolf naming conventions and have to sit down and put towels over their pants when they hear barking.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Space wolves haven't been good since 5th, and aren't good now. It's also unlikely they'll be any good in the new book without sweeping buffs to all other Marine factions.

How? Practially all their units are unique or have a unique build...it does not affect other marine factions. Plus - you are literally insane if you think they havn't been top dogs for a while now (no pun intended)

uhhhhhhhhh no?

Grey hunters, Blood Claws, Wolf Scouts, Skyclaws, Terminators, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders, Stalkers, Hunters, Wolf Lords, Wolf Guard, Dreadnoughts, Long Fangs, and Venerable Dreadnoughts are all based on basic marine pricing.

Wulfen, the special characters, Murderfang, Santa Chariot, Fenrisian Wolves, 2x Unique Flyers, and Thunderwolves are actually unique.

Many units have some unique wargear options, but there's no reason to think that, for example, Wolf Guard Terminators are going to be any stronger than Deathwatch Terminators because they have limitless swaps.

They're still going to be crap, because their bodies will be priced like terminators, and their weaponry will be priced like terminators, straight out of the marine codex.

Also, there's no reason AT ALL to suggest SW are the best marine codex atm, or have been even close throughout 8th. We've seen like 2-3 space wolf lists in top tables vs how many guilliguns? Their performance has been identical to or worse than GK, which is probably at least partially due to them being in index, but FFS man you're just living in a fantasy world if you think the scary furries are currently convincing people somehow that marines are OP.

We're not in fifth edition anymore.

Just stop disagreeing with me to disagree dude. Space wolves are already ahead of codex space marines and being one of the only index left.
Greyhunters are unique - their issue has always been costing 1 point more than a space marine but being a lot better.
Same with wolflords and rune preists - cost the same as a libby or captain but gets much better gear...or randomly has a better invo save for no reason.
the bad units like terms and LR...just don't get taken. I'm not suggesting SW are going to be rolling people over with LR and terms obviosuly. It's going to be thunderwvoles/wolfen/and wolflords kicking your butt with no effective counterplay. Plus storm wolves - the storm raven plus 1.




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the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's not blatant fiction. Space wolves have been marines plus 1 since forever.

*Snort. Only if you're counting armies made of giant herds of dogs. Otherwise no Grav and no Gladius in 7th.

The army is called space wolves...armies of dogs is what you get.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most Space Wolves players didn't exactly sign up for an army comprised primarily of literal dogs.

Nope. Nobody ever looked at space wolves and went "cool, I'd like to play Marines with a viking flavor, that sounds awesome." nobody ever. They're all filthy, slavering furries who LOVE GWs wolf wolf of the wolf wolf naming conventions and have to sit down and put towels over their pants when they hear barking.

Ahh yes. Drunkard marines - that sounds interesting.

the_scotsman wrote:

Nope. Nobody ever looked at space wolves and went "cool, I'd like to play Marines with a viking flavor, that sounds awesome." nobody ever. They're all filthy, slavering furries who LOVE GWs wolf wolf of the wolf wolf naming conventions and have to sit down and put towels over their pants when they hear barking.

HAHAHAHA! Best description of Space Wolf players I have ever heard.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Space Wolves were good as support characters for Death Star armies but had no solid stand alone builds.

Wolfen...thunderwolves? Those units sucked huh?

We talking about 7th ed? Yes. Did we ever see Wulfen accomplishing anything despite all the hype about how super op they were going to be?

Oh look it turns out when every melee army just casts invis and runs across the battlefield with the mario star pickup music playing, the only thing that really matters is how fast you move. And wulfen did not move particularly fast.

Yes - wolves did very well for the entire eddition. In literally countless events. Is this news to you? Wolfen being OP as feth was more of a late edition thing - it didn't see much tournament play. What i witnessed first hand was laughably OP. I honestly don't remember but I am pretty sure wolfen had a first turn charge mechanic.

SW are so much hot garbage as of now. No one plays them competitively.

 Primark G wrote:
SW are so much hot garbage as of now. No one plays them competitively.

That doesn't really matter though, they're an index. No one played Knights either.

Rune Priests don't 'randomly' get a better invuln save. That wargear would appear to have a point cost of 7pts.

Wolf Priest, gets a random "heal a wounded infantry model D3 wounds" ability for 3pts.

This would appear to be no different than something like a Sanguinary Priest granting his little +1S aura for a few points.

Grey Hunters appear to be marines that don't get Combat Squads or Heavy Weapons, and also have fewer special weapon options, but do get chainswords and some kind of reroll charge rolls of 1 banner. Does this also make Blood Angels tactical squads broken because they "randomly" get heavy flamers or Crusader squads broken because they "randomly" get neophytes?

And let's take a look at that totally unique datasheet for the Wolf Lord with "way better" gear, shall we?

 Primark G wrote:
SW are so much hot garbage as of now. No one plays them competitively.

SW are garbage right now yes. Their unit entries alone make them better than space marines even with army trait plus stratagems. (most because every space marine stratagem sucks)(and because every space marine unit sucks too) just wait till they get a codex. It's going to blow your mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Rune Priests don't 'randomly' get a better invuln save. That wargear would appear to have a point cost of 7pts.

Wolf Priest, gets a random "heal a wounded infantry model D3 wounds" ability for 3pts.

This would appear to be no different than something like a Sanguinary Priest granting his little +1S aura for a few points.

Grey Hunters appear to be marines that don't get Combat Squads or Heavy Weapons, and also have fewer special weapon options, but do get chainswords and some kind of reroll charge rolls of 1 banner. Does this also make Blood Angels tactical squads broken because they "randomly" get heavy flamers or Crusader squads broken because they "randomly" get neophytes?

And let's take a look at that totally unique datasheet for the Wolf Lord with "way better" gear, shall we?

Obviously I am referring to 7th edition. Which is what I responded to in your post. Who knows how GW will make SW better than vanilla marines by a large factor in 8th. It is coming though. Mark my words.

the_scotsman wrote:
And let's take a look at that totally unique datasheet for the Wolf Lord with "way better" gear, shall we?

I assume you must know this, but Wolf Lords and WGBLs get access to the Space Wolves weapons list so they can take Wolf Claws etc. I wouldn't call these options way better than other Marines Captains, but they are different.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
SW are so much hot garbage as of now. No one plays them competitively.

SW are garbage right now yes. Their unit entries alone make them better than space marines even with army trait plus stratagems. (most because every space marine stratagem sucks)(and because every space marine unit sucks too) just wait till they get a codex. It's going to blow your mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Rune Priests don't 'randomly' get a better invuln save. That wargear would appear to have a point cost of 7pts.

Wolf Priest, gets a random "heal a wounded infantry model D3 wounds" ability for 3pts.

This would appear to be no different than something like a Sanguinary Priest granting his little +1S aura for a few points.

Grey Hunters appear to be marines that don't get Combat Squads or Heavy Weapons, and also have fewer special weapon options, but do get chainswords and some kind of reroll charge rolls of 1 banner. Does this also make Blood Angels tactical squads broken because they "randomly" get heavy flamers or Crusader squads broken because they "randomly" get neophytes?

And let's take a look at that totally unique datasheet for the Wolf Lord with "way better" gear, shall we?

Obviously I am referring to 7th edition. Which is what I responded to in your post. Who knows how GW will make SW better than vanilla marines by a large factor in 8th. It is coming though. Mark my words.

So, you 'obviously' responded to my post talking about 8th edition with a response about 7th edition, after I showed a screeenshot example of you blatantly making something up?

And the fact that we see Space Marine lists in tournaments placing far, far more often throughout the entirety of 8th edition than Space Wolf lists indicates that wolves are somehow better than marines how?

As salty as I'd like to be about being an ork player who still doesn't even HAVE their codex, in truth I feel your pain. Last edition, orks were the first codex out the door and it was a train wreck smashing into a dumpster fire.

SM codex isn't nearly as bad as the 7th ed ork codex was, but still, the fact that everyone else's army traits apply to all units, but marines and CSM only get army special rules for infantry, bikes, and dreads, must rankle a bit.