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Orks have been dumped on for a long time. I don't get it, really. It's really obvious, too. Marines get sideways dumped on.

meleti wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
SW are so much hot garbage as of now. No one plays them competitively.

That doesn't really matter though, they're an index. No one played Knights either.

It matters in context to what he said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
And let's take a look at that totally unique datasheet for the Wolf Lord with "way better" gear, shall we?

I assume you must know this, but Wolf Lords and WGBLs get access to the Space Wolves weapons list so they can take Wolf Claws etc. I wouldn't call these options way better than other Marines Captains, but they are different.

I’d rather have Teeth of Terra.

 Primark G wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
SW are so much hot garbage as of now. No one plays them competitively.

That doesn't really matter though, they're an index. No one played Knights either.

It matters in context to what he said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
And let's take a look at that totally unique datasheet for the Wolf Lord with "way better" gear, shall we?

I assume you must know this, but Wolf Lords and WGBLs get access to the Space Wolves weapons list so they can take Wolf Claws etc. I wouldn't call these options way better than other Marines Captains, but they are different.

I’d rather have Teeth of Terra.

The fact you jumped right to a RELIC says a lot.

Martel732 wrote:
Orks have been dumped on for a long time. I don't get it, really. It's really obvious, too. Marines get sideways dumped on.

Preach. Hopefully this edition is better (as I’ve said every edition)

 Billagio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Orks have been dumped on for a long time. I don't get it, really. It's really obvious, too. Marines get sideways dumped on.

Preach. Hopefully this edition is better (as I’ve said every edition)

Check out my signature!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Process wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.

Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.

Broodlord (Overcosted - legit needs a buff)
Old One Eye (Overcosted - probably a good thing - carnifex are OP)
Harpy (Not actaully that bad)
Haruspex (should hit on 3's)
Crone (not actaully that bad)
Lictor (not bad)
Shrikes (not bad - no models - why 5+ save?)
Skyslashers (Not bad just has no models)
Maleceptor (Not bad - can be used effectively - Just strange 3 attacks with 4+ to hit d6 damage weapon - strong psychic)
Pyrovores (Great against any CC army)
Tervigon (Legit trash - no arguement)
Zoanthropes (Actaully pretty good unit - spamming Neuros is better though)
Tyranid Prime (Overcosted but amazing buff for warriors - I use it in competitive games and it does well)
Tyrannocyte (Legit trash - you actually have scary stuff to put in it though)
Tyrant Guard (Mandatory for swarmlord...not really sure why this is on the list)
Toxicrine (Fantastic unit - try using it)
Dimachaeron (Weird rules - use Toxicrine instead)
Deathleaper (Was great in index then became trash - use index rules and you good)
Red Terror (Trash - agree)
Trygon Prime (Hummm - slgihtly more expensive trygon with better shooting attack and synapse...trygon better cause doesn't need the synapse but that doesn't make the prime worthless)
every single LOW (I'm not so sure how terrible the CC haridrule is - he has a nice flamer attack and brutal CC that is almost automatic turn 1 with swarmy. Not enough defense though - rest are trash - agreed)


and that's just being generous and only including utter garbage units and not including things that just completely outclassed like Biovores, or just useless things like Warriors, Venomthropes and Gargs that see zero play, even though that was the original statement.


SO MUCH INTERNAL BALANCE


"only MY army needs fixes!"

You are being a little harsh on a lot of these units - I responded in parenthesis.

Marine issues are much more drastic by like another scale shift. Practically everything on that list has a marine counterpart that is much worse. Warriors aren't trash BTW. They are a very good unit. Hive Gaurd are just OP.

You're being utterly unrealistic for the sake of defending your army here, and none of the models I mentioned are seeing any play. Ever. Lol at thinking Shrikes aren't bad, they are Tervigon tier. They've been bad for so long I bet you had to Google what they actually are.

Tyrant Guard are probably the one thing that's debatable on that list. They are overcosted ablative wounds for the Swarmlord and never make them back. But it's POSSIBLE that alone gives them a niche that pushes them off that list. Feel free to replace them with Biovores who are weaker than HG against almost every single target in the game than. The rest? naaaaaah.



I'm not even complaining. The dex plays. But to say that no other army needs an update except SM, is the most blinkered, biased, unrealistic, nonsense statement you could make.





Also, for anyone singing the prayers of Tyranids Drop Pod, it's a bottom 3 model in the dex. It's 125 pts for a transport for a SINLGE MC (not even Carnifex broods). Like literally the only thing even close to costed at being worth transporting at that price point is Swarmlord, and he's a unit you are paying out the ass for a double move strat that you want on the board turn 1. Only troops deepstrike easily in the Tyranid army, and very few are worth taking to do so, that's not their role. A Devilgant "bomb" is basically the main thing even worth considering, and that still doesn't get played by anyone, because its 240 pts for a glass cannon of 45x S4 AP0 hits. You're taking like 20 GEQ models off the table for that price. It's rarely worth disrupting your list strategy.

Sort of, as the Tyrannocyte is also an MC which can shoot, assault and be a general nusiance.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sort of, as the Tyrannocyte is also an MC which can shoot, assault and be a general nusiance.

At it's highest wounds profile, it has on average 3 attacks, at WS5+, and S5. It's shooting is a handful of deathspitters (not the MC kind, the infantry kind), also hitting at 5+. It's also slow as hell. Even other generic transports are doing more than it. Even the guy who up-played a bunch of Tyranid models that I listed as bad, admitted that this one is trash. Minor nuisance at best.

More capable than a drop pod I love the fact it can assault actually. Otherwise very specialist model, as it's standout ability is that it can carry big MCs.

I have no problem with GW taking a look at some armies and revising those that they feel aren't up to elvel. that said space marines are NOT the first codex I think of when I think "GW needs to make a 8.5 codex for them" that would be grey knights.

 Insectum7 wrote:
More capable than a drop pod I love the fact it can assault actually. Otherwise very specialist model, as it's standout ability is that it can carry big MCs.

Eh, it's not useless, but I'd much rather take 2 drop pods and use the 100 pts you save on a real unit.

Basically the only point of the Spore is that it takes big MC's since its obviously much worse than just tunneling in with Raveners or Trygons when in comes to infantry. And the only good MCs that would even want to be deepstriking (Carnifex's) cost literally less than the transport itself. Taking a 125 pt transport to DS a single 100 pt MC is just a waste of points.

Seriously think about the MC's in the army.

Swarmlord wants to be on the table to double move CC unit for turn 1 assault threat
Exocrine and Tyrannofex both want to be stationary for double shooting, deepstriking in is just putting them in your opponents face before they got a chance to double strike
Mawlocs and Trygons already deepstrike themselves
Haruspex, Toxicrene and Maleceptor are overpriced garbage
Dima is a consideration, but already pays a grip for the mobility to get himself into CC.
Similar with Harpy, Crone and Flyrant, except they couldn't go in one even if they wanted to


Not to mention they aren't coming down till turn 1, when they'd probably be in range if you just made them Kraken for free anyway.

There's a reason Tyrannocytes see no play. They are pointless model, bottom of the barrel addition in the new dex.

Oh I hear ya, I bought mine for the Swarmlord but I'm not sure it's worth it. (And I kinda lost interest in the Swarmlord anyways). Believe it or not, I kinda want to drop a Tervigon alongside a buckketload of burrowed gaunts (playing Jorm). I'm not sold on it, just something I'm thinking about. I like the models and I want to see what I can do with them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh I hear ya, I bought mine for the Swarmlord but I'm not sure it's worth it. (And I kinda lost interest in the Swarmlord anyways). Believe it or not, I kinda want to drop a Tervigon alongside a buckketload of burrowed gaunts (playing Jorm). I'm not sold on it, just something I'm thinking about. I like the models and I want to see what I can do with them.

I (personally) don't think it is worth it for Swarmlord, he's basically the price of 2 Hive Tyrants, 3 Hive Tyrants if you factor in the pod, for the ability to double move a unit in their face, and its an ability you aren't getting if you are DS'ing him. I like my pod models as well, so I'm using them as Sporocysts (which is actually a really good unit).

Good point about Swarmlord, and I agree about Sporocysts. They're a very weird but attractive unit.

BrianDavion wrote:
I have no problem with GW taking a look at some armies and revising those that they feel aren't up to elvel. that said space marines are NOT the first codex I think of when I think "GW needs to make a 8.5 codex for them" that would be grey knights.

Okay while I figure most people here are inclined to agree with this statement, I'm sure that you could agree that by fixing vanilla marines by extension fixes Grey knights. Not totally, but by a great margin.

I really just wanna see what GW is gonna do because the marine Statline is like a sacred cow to them, but I guess you could say that about most other units. Probably just going to bump them up an A and W, then do the same to Primaris. After all coming up with flavourful rules costs time and momey

Why would they bump the stats...really?

The desire to make them superer is just so ... adolescent.

I'd actually be on board with them getting a stats bump, they are meant to be like a lot stronger than say Crisis suits right? or am I wrong, I don't follow the lore that much.

But that being said, if they got two wounds and a toughness upgrade all we'd ever hear is how it's a pointless buff, because "EVERYONE already hunts them with guns that do multi damage and is at least T6, GW doesn't care about Space Marines, blah blah blah". The SM players who I know in real life would be ecstatic, but I don't think they can win when it comes to the online community. I don't like balance issues, but if one army has to "struggle", at least it's the guys who were going to whine no matter what. And I use the word struggle extremely loosely, considering Ultramarines and Raven Guard are still taking top tables and cleaning out big meta threats with consistency.

increase SM W profile by 1 would go a long way. So basic marines with 2w, termies with 3w etc. Makes them more resistant to small arms but will still go down to dedicated weapons / AT (should even help satisfy the fluff bunnies)

Plague Marines with 2 wounds as standard would be huge a bump for them.

There's two types of fluff for the "fluff bunnies". One type is the bolter porn fluff bunny. "Mahreens should be awesomer because the books say they're awesome."

The other type is from the xenos point of view. In which marines with two wounds while every other base unit still has one, just goes a long way to diminish the core models of every other faction in the game.

Classically speaking, the breakdown is this:

Humans suck. A well trained soldier with his lasrifle is just a poor sod in the 40k universe.

Orks are tough and fighty. They're undisciplined, mad tough (fighting with limbs blown off and bullets in the head), and hyper aggressive to the edge and beyond sanity.

Eldar are like very skilled humans with access excellent gear.

Marines are as tough as an Ork, with the armor of the best Eldar, with the skill of an Eldar, stronger than every other member in this list, with gear occasionally rivaling that of an Eldar, and mad, mad discipline.

And somehow that's not good enough? Crazypants.

I get the desire for 2w, but it's wrong.

 Insectum7 wrote:
There's two types of fluff for the "fluff bunnies". One type is the bolter porn fluff bunny. "Mahreens should be awesomer because the books say they're awesome."

The other type is from the xenos point of view. In which marines with two wounds while every other base unit still has one, just goes a long way to diminish the core models of every other faction in the game.

Classically speaking, the breakdown is this:

Humans suck. A well trained soldier with his lasrifle is just a poor sod in the 40k universe.

Orks are tough and fighty. They're undisciplined, mad tough (fighting with limbs blown off and bullets in the head), and hyper aggressive to the edge and beyond sanity.

Eldar are like very skilled humans with access excellent gear.

Marines are as tough as an Ork, with the armor of the best Eldar, with the skill of an Eldar, stronger than every other member in this list, with gear occasionally rivaling that of an Eldar, and mad, mad discipline.

And somehow that's not good enough? Crazypants.

I get the desire for 2w, but it's wrong.

Well reasoned. Counter-point - Marines have two hearts!

That's all I got

Lol

Well, the other fluff thing about marines is that they can survive horrible wounds to fight another day. So even though many become incapacitated, they don't die from their injuries, heal, get bionics and rejoin the ranks.

I hope Land Speeders would be more viable. -1 to hit or no shooting after advance are bad if you compare them to Black Knights. And they do not get chapter tactics like vanilla bikes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

And somehow that's not good enough? Crazypants.

I get the desire for 2w, but it's wrong.

The thing is, 2W/2A Marines is not just trying to align to the fluff - it’s a concession to gameplay. It’s the same as Primaris Marines - do you really think that, from a lore standpoint, a single Primaris could bring the beatdown onto two Minimarines in hand-to-hand? Not on his life. But they gave him 2W/2A anyway because mechanically the game lacked a way to make the distinction accurately, and to try and make Primaris useable.

It’s the same problem with Minimarines. The game has nearly completed its race to the bottom - your Guardsman has one wound, one attack, a 50/50 hit rate, and costs 4 points. There isn’t a whole lot of room left to make him weaker short of Str/T 2. So with several gradations above Guardsmen - Veterans, Stormtroopers, Guardians and Sisters to name a few - Marines are forced into the mid-teens points bracket because otherwise you’d be asking ‘why am I taking a Sister for 9 points when for 1 point more I can get +1 Str/T?’ With Marines locked out of the sub-12 point bracket, the designers are forced to try and make them worth something-teen points.

Here’s the kicker, though: once you’re up into the teens points-wise, though, it’s a bad investment to give a 1-Wound model more stuff. Ask Grey Knights players about that. Or, to use an extreme example, would you take a 50pt 1-Wound model (aside from very small numbers of powerful suicide units)? No way in hell, right? Well Marines’ problem might not be that extreme, but the idea is the same. You can’t invest too much into 1-W models since they will die to a stiff breeze (even if you give them a 2+ Save, as Terminators of about 5 Editions of the game will tell you).

You can try to get around the problem by loading them up with special rules that bypass the game mechanics - like Berserkers attacking twice with obscene numbers of attacks each time. That works up to a point, but only on elite/special units - if every unit sidesteps the core rulebook and plays by their own rules you’re on the express route to a train wreck. Also, every point you invest in them without making them more durable ratchets them one notch further down the line of ‘glass cannon’. Now a glass cannon theme works for Eldar of all kinds - it is very much their schtick - and for armies that can run large numbers of models, since particularly in this edition there is a certain toughness to model quantity. However, asking Marine players to consider their half-ton monster men in inch-thick slabs on unobtanium armour as glass cannons is a real slap to the face.

Bumping Marines up to 2 Wounds/Attacks and a few points higher drags them out of that danger zone by giving them enough durability to be worth investing special wargear and abilities into. It also gives them a certain durability against small arms, while leaving them vulnerable against the sort of light-anti-tank weapons you’re supposed to use to hunt these things.

Put simply, Marines have been crowded out of a design space where 1 Wound is functionally useful with the current ruleset. It’s the easier route to fix Marines rather than nuke the game again and start from zero. Is it really that concerning that a Marine has twice as many wounds, twice as many Attacks and less firepower than say a Guardian, when he costs twice as much?

Edit: Also, there is a lore justification - cutting a Marine in half won’t stop him attacking you. Cut off his arm an he keeps hitting you with the other one without missing a beat. Shoot him in the heart or lungs and his backup ones take over. Give him a wound that would make him bleed out, he clots and forms scar tissue instantly. Of all basic-troop-shaped things in the game, they are kind of the leading contender for having two wounds.

Just so things are put in context.

A guardsman shooting a guardsman: 0.5 to hit; 0.5 to wound; 0.667 to fail save. Average =0.167
A marine shooting a guardsman: 0.667 to hit; 0.667 to wound; 0.667 to fail save. Average =0.296
A guardsman shooting a marine: 0.5 to hit; 0.333 to wound; 0.333 to fail save. Average =0.056

When shooting against a guardsman; a guardsman does 0.167 average damage and a marine does 0.296 average damage.
That means a marine has 177.778% more firepower than a guardsman.

When getting shot at by a guardsman; a guardsman receives 0.167 average damage and a marine receives 0.056 average damage.
That means a marine has 300% better durability than a guardsman. If marines get 2 wounds you would double their durability, so 600% more durability than a guardsman.

Please note that rapid fire may double the firepower but does not change the ratio, and that both can rapid fire. Both melee is the same damage as their ranged.

If we average firepower and durability we get 238.89% for 1 wound or 388.89% for 2 wounds. So if guardsmen a 4pts then (4pts x 238.89%) = 9.56pts for 1 wound and (4pts x 388.89%) = 15.56pts. If guardsmen were 5pts then (5pts x 238.89%) = 11.94pts for 1 wound and (5pts x 388.89%) = 19.44pts.

Personally I think all codices will be re-printed and updated every so often. This is simply because of CA and FAQs.

Once the initial major changes from the FAQs and CAs are in place, I think we’ll start to see the next wave of codices roll out with these changes written into the individual codices. This is simply because it helps the players, helps new players, and of course keeps people buying books every so often.

I don’t expect them to be re-visited until after the 2018 CA. This is because the game is still pretty un-settled and evolving. Once the September (autumn/prob winter…) big FAQ is out of the way, is fed back on and settles into the game, it will allow them to start to fix everything down in the next waves of publishing.

As it stands, the chances of a new wave of codices before the next big FAQ is unlikely, due to GW not fully knowing the overall state of the game and (well logically) it’d be a waste of time to add in all the changes, when, it’s likely going to need to be done again straight after.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'd actually be on board with them getting a stats bump, they are meant to be like a lot stronger than say Crisis suits right? or am I wrong, I don't follow the lore that much.

But that being said, if they got two wounds and a toughness upgrade all we'd ever hear is how it's a pointless buff, because "EVERYONE already hunts them with guns that do multi damage and is at least T6, GW doesn't care about Space Marines, blah blah blah". The SM players who I know in real life would be ecstatic, but I don't think they can win when it comes to the online community. I don't like balance issues, but if one army has to "struggle", at least it's the guys who were going to whine no matter what. And I use the word struggle extremely loosely, considering Ultramarines and Raven Guard are still taking top tables and cleaning out big meta threats with consistency.

case in point, Primaris Marines, they GOT a second wound, and everyone talks about how crappy Primaris Marines are. that said a stats bump won't solve marines issues.

the problems with Marines are a points issue, (this is hard to solve as others have noted. basicly they're paying for stuff of questionable value) and that their stratigiums etc could be better. the stratigiums etc are where I'd expect to see improvements made. it'd be very easy to put out a supplemenbt for space marines called, I dunno "Codex Astarties: the stratigiums of Robute Gulliman" which giuves space marines some new stratigiums, it'd be simple eneugh to FAQ their chapter tactics apply to ALL marine units. etc. These seem more reasonable to me then a marine stat line change.

Grey Knights just need a total revamp, they need points reductions, more psykic powers (1k sons have 2 or 3 lists they can take powers from, why can't grey knights have the librarius disipine in addition to santic?) new stratigiums, proably new units..

Tygre wrote:

If we average firepower and durability we get 238.89% for 1 wound or 388.89% for 2 wounds. So if guardsmen a 4pts then (4pts x 238.89%) = 9.56pts for 1 wound and (4pts x 388.89%) = 15.56pts. If guardsmen were 5pts then (5pts x 238.89%) = 11.94pts for 1 wound and (5pts x 388.89%) = 19.44pts.

I’m... actually ok with this. A 4pt Guardsman and a 15.5pt 2 Wound Marine isn’t a bad ratio IMO, as I’ve said before that I wish Primaris were 15pts and paid 1pt on top of that for a Bolt Rifle. It’s also worth noting that aside from Gretchin in close combat, the Lasgun is the closest weapon to being more efficient at killing Guardsmen than killing Marines (it isn’t, but it’s close - S2 AP- is the only profile that is better at killing Guardsmen than Marines). The moment you upgrade the lasgun’s Str or AP - or Damage for multi-Wound Marines - you get more efficient at killing Marines. So if a Lasgun is just at efficient at killing a 4pt Guardsman as a 15.5pt 2W Marine, a 2W Marine should probably cost 14pts.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Process wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is exactly the problem. Thinking Space Marines are the only army that has internal balance issues is just the most blinkered view possible. You mention Nids and Tau like half their dexes aren't just pointless inclusion competitively and that's just the two I'm thoroughly versed in. It's this stupid only child syndrome that gives SM players the negative rep they have.

Well thats not really true is it. The Tau and nid books are relatively internally balanced compared to marines and still offer the capability to run very diverse forces. There are a lot of effective list variations for both of those codexes floating around without having to rely on other books as a crutch.

Broodlord (Overcosted - legit needs a buff)
Old One Eye (Overcosted - probably a good thing - carnifex are OP)
Harpy (Not actaully that bad)
Haruspex (should hit on 3's)
Crone (not actaully that bad)
Lictor (not bad)
Shrikes (not bad - no models - why 5+ save?)
Skyslashers (Not bad just has no models)
Maleceptor (Not bad - can be used effectively - Just strange 3 attacks with 4+ to hit d6 damage weapon - strong psychic)
Pyrovores (Great against any CC army)
Tervigon (Legit trash - no arguement)
Zoanthropes (Actaully pretty good unit - spamming Neuros is better though)
Tyranid Prime (Overcosted but amazing buff for warriors - I use it in competitive games and it does well)
Tyrannocyte (Legit trash - you actually have scary stuff to put in it though)
Tyrant Guard (Mandatory for swarmlord...not really sure why this is on the list)
Toxicrine (Fantastic unit - try using it)
Dimachaeron (Weird rules - use Toxicrine instead)
Deathleaper (Was great in index then became trash - use index rules and you good)
Red Terror (Trash - agree)
Trygon Prime (Hummm - slgihtly more expensive trygon with better shooting attack and synapse...trygon better cause doesn't need the synapse but that doesn't make the prime worthless)
every single LOW (I'm not so sure how terrible the CC haridrule is - he has a nice flamer attack and brutal CC that is almost automatic turn 1 with swarmy. Not enough defense though - rest are trash - agreed)


and that's just being generous and only including utter garbage units and not including things that just completely outclassed like Biovores, or just useless things like Warriors, Venomthropes and Gargs that see zero play, even though that was the original statement.


SO MUCH INTERNAL BALANCE


"only MY army needs fixes!"

You are being a little harsh on a lot of these units - I responded in parenthesis.

Marine issues are much more drastic by like another scale shift. Practically everything on that list has a marine counterpart that is much worse. Warriors aren't trash BTW. They are a very good unit. Hive Gaurd are just OP.

You're being utterly unrealistic for the sake of defending your army here, and none of the models I mentioned are seeing any play. Ever. Lol at thinking Shrikes aren't bad, they are Tervigon tier. They've been bad for so long I bet you had to Google what they actually are.

Tyrant Guard are probably the one thing that's debatable on that list. They are overcosted ablative wounds for the Swarmlord and never make them back. But it's POSSIBLE that alone gives them a niche that pushes them off that list. Feel free to replace them with Biovores who are weaker than HG against almost every single target in the game than. The rest? naaaaaah.



I'm not even complaining. The dex plays. But to say that no other army needs an update except SM, is the most blinkered, biased, unrealistic, nonsense statement you could make.





Also, for anyone singing the prayers of Tyranids Drop Pod, it's a bottom 3 model in the dex. It's 125 pts for a transport for a SINLGE MC (not even Carnifex broods). Like literally the only thing even close to costed at being worth transporting at that price point is Swarmlord, and he's a unit you are paying out the ass for a double move strat that you want on the board turn 1. Only troops deepstrike easily in the Tyranid army, and very few are worth taking to do so, that's not their role. A Devilgant "bomb" is basically the main thing even worth considering, and that still doesn't get played by anyone, because its 240 pts for a glass cannon of 45x S4 AP0 hits. You're taking like 20 GEQ models off the table for that price. It's rarely worth disrupting your list strategy.

First - Tyranids are a top codex. I could build my nid list 1 of 20 ways and just crush marines - with a lot of units you are saying are trash. I'd take shrikes vs assault marines ANYDAY - they are outclassed by geensteelers and warriros but you could build a list around a big unit of them in combo with swarmlord that actaully has greater threat range than a unit of steelers and hits harder. It's not optimal - but my marines have 0 options that can move 36 inches and charge someones back line with 46 attacks (something shrikes can do) Again I am not even saying this is a great thing - just that the unit is more capable than marine equivalents.

Stop focusing on what people are playing in tournaments in a discussion like this. No one played Carnifex in tournaments ether when you could take 7 flying hives - turns out though that carnifex are pretty dang good too. People only use the best option in tournaments - they don't even consider the second best option. Nids aren't even in the same ballpark as marines.

Nid can make a better pure assault list - a better pure shooter list - a better pure psyker list. They win in every phase of the game against marines even with their middle teir options. Nids DO NOT need help. Internal balance lacking is a problem all armies have - not saying that shouldn't be addressed. Marine issues are much less internal balance and more external. Most of the stuff in the codex is at the same level - rock bottom - so it has pretty good internal balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh I hear ya, I bought mine for the Swarmlord but I'm not sure it's worth it. (And I kinda lost interest in the Swarmlord anyways). Believe it or not, I kinda want to drop a Tervigon alongside a buckketload of burrowed gaunts (playing Jorm). I'm not sold on it, just something I'm thinking about. I like the models and I want to see what I can do with them.

I (personally) don't think it is worth it for Swarmlord, he's basically the price of 2 Hive Tyrants, 3 Hive Tyrants if you factor in the pod, for the ability to double move a unit in their face, and its an ability you aren't getting if you are DS'ing him. I like my pod models as well, so I'm using them as Sporocysts (which is actually a really good unit).

Should never take pod - just advance swarmy to meet with whatever unit you want to slingshot - if you really need to - they are many ways to boost SL movement with stratagems too. There is 0 reason to waste 120 points dropping swarmy - plus he needs tyrant guard.

Tygre wrote:
Just so things are put in context.

A guardsman shooting a guardsman: 0.5 to hit; 0.5 to wound; 0.667 to fail save. Average =0.167
A marine shooting a guardsman: 0.667 to hit; 0.667 to wound; 0.667 to fail save. Average =0.296
A guardsman shooting a marine: 0.5 to hit; 0.333 to wound; 0.333 to fail save. Average =0.056

When shooting against a guardsman; a guardsman does 0.167 average damage and a marine does 0.296 average damage.
That means a marine has 177.778% more firepower than a guardsman.

When getting shot at by a guardsman; a guardsman receives 0.167 average damage and a marine receives 0.056 average damage.
That means a marine has 300% better durability than a guardsman. If marines get 2 wounds you would double their durability, so 600% more durability than a guardsman.

Please note that rapid fire may double the firepower but does not change the ratio, and that both can rapid fire. Both melee is the same damage as their ranged.

If we average firepower and durability we get 238.89% for 1 wound or 388.89% for 2 wounds. So if guardsmen a 4pts then (4pts x 238.89%) = 9.56pts for 1 wound and (4pts x 388.89%) = 15.56pts. If guardsmen were 5pts then (5pts x 238.89%) = 11.94pts for 1 wound and (5pts x 388.89%) = 19.44pts.

I think it's worth noting that a marine is only 300% more durable than a guardsmen against guardsmen with lasguns, which is about a marine's best case scenario.

It takes 9 guardsmen rapid firing (36 points worth) to kill 1 marines (at least 13 points) or 3 guardsmen (at least 12 points killed). So there is already a points disparity, though admittedly a small one. At their current points cost, marines are only about 92% as durable per point as guardsmen when they are being shot at my lasguns.

If you move to marines with bolters shooting marines and guardsmen, marines are only 266% more durable when compared model to model, and are only 82% as durable when compared point to point.

When you start involving weapons with AP, the gap widens, as it's easy for a gun to good at killing marines, but actually hard for a gun to get much better at killing guardsmen, since they are so easy to kill in the first place. I think this is very important, as these are the guns that people actually use to kill infantry, rather than small arm fire from their marines and guardsmen.

BS3+ Heavy Bolters: 9 Heavy Bolters kills 6 marines (78 points at least) or 10 guardsmen (40 points). Model to model marines are 166% more durable, but 51% as durable point to point.
BS3+ Assault Cannons: 9 kill 12 marines (156 points) or 25 guardsmen (100 points). Model to model marines are 208% more durable, but 64% as durable per point.

As you can see the toughness difference between marines and guard helps a little VS S6, but not by much.

The more AP you add, the wider the gap gets. Even anti-tank guns aren't terrible at killing marines. A few las cannons can actually be useful sometimes to kill off marines if you need to. 3 marines on an objective are much easier to shift with the wrong weapons than 9 guardsmen would be.

With the current AP system, Marines need to be much better than guardsmen against small arms fire on a durability per point basis, because when the real guns come into play, they are always going to give up more points. What you would really have to do is average the types of guns they are likely to be shot with, and then make the points match that.

For example: If you assumed that 50% of marines die to lasguns, and the other 50% die to assault cannons, marines would need to cost about 10 points with their current stats to equal the overall durability of a guardsmen.

If you bumped marines to 2 wounds and assumed that 1/3rd died to lasguns, 1/3rd died to OC Plasma, and 1/3rd to Assault cannons, they would only need to cost about 15 points to be as durable as guardsmen getting shot by the same guns on a durability per point basis. This ends up being 11 rapid fire plasma guns, 15 assault cannons, and 180 rapid fire lasguns killing 30 2W marines vs 113 guardsmen. And, i think if you look at most lists nowadays, the above ratio is probably off by quite a bit, in that there simply are not that many marines dying to small arms fire, meaning that 15 points is actually probably pretty generous, and that's only taking into account their durability. You would have to do something similar with offensive ability,and depending on what guns they had (normal bolter vs primaris guns) they would probably need to get even cheaper to actually be equivalent.

So it's not ridiculous in my opinion to say marines could be 14 points and have 2 wounds, as crazy as that seems on the surface.

Nah it's not crazy - It's been suggested many times that if you just added a wound to both tacs and primaris / terms that that would be about where they should be in terms of durability per point and they would still need an offensive buff.