Thirteens trapped in Chiangrai Cave Found

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**Iron_Captain**

Xenomancers wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

They have been pumping water out the whole time. They can't keep up with what is coming in (were talking about a huge area draining into it)
I'm guessing they just don't have the right equipment to replenish their air supply. From what I understand they are roughly 2.5 KM away from the opening to the cave. So all you'd need to give them a continuous supply of fresh air would be 2x 2.5km hoses with an airpump attached to 1 of them. The other hose would automatically remove the stale air (they must not have this available). They have been using Oxygen tanks to get them air - seems desperate.

They tried this. They couldn't get the hoses through the cave.

**jhe90**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

They have been pumping water out the whole time. They can't keep up with what is coming in (were talking about a huge area draining into it)
I'm guessing they just don't have the right equipment to replenish their air supply. From what I understand they are roughly 2.5 KM away from the opening to the cave. So all you'd need to give them a continuous supply of fresh air would be 2x 2.5km hoses with an airpump attached to 1 of them. The other hose would automatically remove the stale air (they must not have this available). They have been using Oxygen tanks to get them air - seems desperate.

They tried this. They couldn't get the hoses through the cave.

Also it's the kinks and turns on the Cave. It would need to be able to avoid too many sharp corners etc.

Plus water level changes could effect it.

Not exactly a low risk plan.

**Dreadwinter**

greatbigtree wrote:
But it's so dangerous it's nearly impossible! We should drill! There's no way they could just drag the kids out with a rope, or something. You don't understand how dangerous it is! Yer Ignant!

Ahem, now that that's out of the way...

I'm happy the rescue operation is going well. Kudos to the well trained personnel doing the good work in a difficult situation.

And yes, I'm scoring an I told you so, on the backs of endangered children. Sometimes I'm too petty for words.

You really shouldn't be scoring anything here. The be patient and wait strategy has worked. Not the "OH MY GOD GET THEM OUT NOW" strategy.

**greatbigtree**

The, "It's the least bad of all options" strategy has worked. The, "Get them out before they drown" strategy is working.

The drill them out and have them all get drowned in mud / crushed by a cave in was way too dangerous to even consider... not that anyone here pointed that out.

Waiting for 4 months so they can remove the bodies once it's dry didn't really work out either.

So yeah, I'm going to take the point here for stating the obvious. It's dangerous, but it's the least dangerous option. No, they didn't need to train the kids to dive in caves. Drug them and drag them out is working. Sure, I didn't suggest drugging them, but I certainly understand the logic behind it.

Yes, a gentleman that should have known better ran out of oxygen while putting reserve canisters in. Someone got careless and died in a life and death situation. His sacrifice is noble, but should not have happened. For the love of an uncaring universe, he was delivering spare O2 canisters. Take one for the road if you're worried you're going to run out! I have a viciously dark sense of humour. Comes with being a nihilist. This could not be more cruelly ironically funny. Callous, but true.

Quite frankly, I've armchair quarterbacked this just about perfectly. I just hope the situation does not deteriorate too quickly, and flood their section before they can be evacuated... or have the pumps fail completely. This is a situation where getting out NOW is safer than getting out later.

**d-usa**

“It’s not that dangerous and the guy died because he got careless”.

Ignorance can’t be cured.

Edit:

It's important to be edgy though.

Edited by RiTides - Removed OT image

**greatbigtree**

I have never, in this entire thread, said that cave diving isn't dangerous. It was and is the least dangerous of the available options. Hence, it is being implemented.

The guy's job was to place SPARE oxygen tanks along the way, so that if someone got in trouble, they would have spare tanks. He knew where the spare tanks were. He put them there. Had his hands on them. On his way out, he could have grabbed a spare tank. But he got careless, and drowned. This wasn't his first day. He got careless. He died because of it.

If you've ever worked around heavy equipment, it is dangerous. Hydraulics don't stop for squishy things like human beings. Tires bigger than cars don't stop for people. Conveyor belts can tear your arm off. Crusher jaws reduce a human being to 3/4" pieces. There are safe ways to work on these. People get killed (about 1 per year in southwest Ontario) when they don't follow the proper procedures, or try to cut corners by removing or ignoring safeguards.

Some occupations don't give second chances. Underwater rescue is one of them. It's dangerous, but it can be done. The least dangerous option.

Getting out ASAP is the safest course of action for them. It is what's happening now.

Edited by RiTides - Removed response to image deleted above

**RiTides**

D-usa and greatbigtree, please stop the back and forth bickering - you've both made your points, and no one has to be "right".

Let's keep the thread clear so people can talk about the rescue (and hopefully, celebrate its outcome if the final children are rescued tomorrow!)

Any questions, just PM me... thanks all

**oldravenman3025**

Kudos to the Royal Thai Navy for their dedication and brass balls of epic proportions. Of course, for those bad asses, this is probably just another "week at the office"

**RiTides**

Whoa - I just read here that that choke point is approximately 40cm... that's less than 16 inches

I don't even know if I can even fit through a 16 inch hole... makes me wonder if this isn't the route the boys took to get through the cave, as that doesn't sound fun even as an adventure!

**Dreadwinter**

I am glad the Thai team took the calm and reasonable approach. Draining the cave so the kids didnt have to stay under the whole time and being patient until they were strong enough to do it. Really glad they didnt rush in and attempt to drag them out as soon as possible as that would be an incredibly dumb thing to do.

Really happy we have professionals on scene that do not freak out over nothing.

**RiTides**

I have been looking for info on who the British divers are that located the boys - has that been posted anywhere? It is pretty crazy the number of experts who are helping with this rescue!

**Dreadwinter**

Somebody said they have been involved in rescues before but I didnt catch a group name or the names of members.

**greatbigtree**

That looks like the divers are following some kind of rope-like device to help guide them through the caves. Very interesting. Whoever thought of that was thoughtful and capable of appreciating the situation the kids are in, and able to determine a competent solution to the problem.

Glad that's working out for them.

**simonr1978**

RiTides wrote:
I have been looking for info on who the British divers are that located the boys - has that been posted anywhere? It is pretty crazy the number of experts who are helping with this rescue!

Richard Stanton and John Volanthen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44690688

**Iron_Captain**

RiTides wrote:
Whoa - I just read here that that choke point is approximately 40cm... that's less than 16 inches

I don't even know if I can even fit through a 16 inch hole... makes me wonder if this isn't the route the boys took to get through the cave, as that doesn't sound fun even as an adventure!

Small openings are pretty common in caves. Crawling through a narrow hole to find all new passageways is half the fun in exploring a cave! I have squeezed myself through smaller openings than that. Though never underwater. I would never swim in a cave. That is just risky.

All this talk of caves really makes me want to do speleology again. Too bad I have already had my holiday trip this year.

**Steve steveson**

RiTides wrote:
I have been looking for info on who the British divers are that located the boys - has that been posted anywhere? It is pretty crazy the number of experts who are helping with this rescue!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/09/meet-seven-british-divers-playing-leading-roles-thai-cave-rescue/

Meet the seven British divers playing leading roles in the Thai cave rescue mission

It is the most challenging underground rescue in history, and Thai authorities have drafted in more than 90 of the world's finest special forces soldiers.

But the spearhead of the Thai cave rescue operation has depended on seven British civilians who learnt their craft exploring the chilly waters of abandoned mines and limestone caves of England and Wales.

Vernon Unsworth

First on the scene was Vernon Unsworth, who is from St Albans but now lives in Thailand.

Mr Unsworth, an experienced diver who now lives close to the caves, was crucial in persuading Thai authorities to bring in UK expertise.

"When Thai Navy Seals went into the cave but they could not see anything because the water is so muddy so they came back, Chaiyon Srisamut, a friend of Mr Unsworth, told the Daily Mail.

"He he knew some English guys who could definitely help."

John Volanthen and Rick Stanton

With the go-ahead from Thai authorities, Mr Unsworth contacted John Volanthen, an IT consultant based in Bristol, and Rick Stanton, a former midlands fire fighter.

The pair have been described as the "A Team" by Bill Whitehouse, vice chairman of the British Cave Rescue Council.

Mr Stanton, 56, Mr Volanthen, 47, discovered the boys and their coach trapped in an air pocket 2.5 miles into the cave system last week.

Mr Whitehous told Radio 4's Today programme last week: "They have been at the spearhead of making their way through because they have the skills and expertise to do it.

"One of the first things they had to do in pushing through is lay a guideline so that they could get out again and so others could follow along."

Voices heard on a video of the moment the group was discovered in the cave belong to Mr Stanton and Mr Volanthen.

The pair have established a reputation as being among the greatest cave rescue divers on the planet - but both have day jobs in the UK.

Mr Stanton has been a firefighter in Coventry for quarter of a century, while Mr Volanthen is an IT consultant based in Bristol.

Both are volunteers with the South and Mid Wales Cave Rescue Team.

In 2011, the pair set a world record for the longest cave dive, penetrating 9km (5.5 miles) down a system in northern Spain using specially developed equipment.

Robert Harper

The UK divers operation to locate the lost boys was overseen by Mr Harper, 70, a veteran potholing expert from Somerset.

He was given a hero’s send-off by the Thai authorities as he left Thailand on Thursday.

Weerasak Kowsurat, the sports minister, thanked him for his “dedication to duty and professionalism,” before he left.

Chris Jewell and Jason Mallison

The British team have now been joined by two more divers: Chris Jewell and Jason Mallison of the Cave Diving Group, Britain's oldest amateur association of subterranean divers.

Both are considered experts in the tight-knit community of cave divers. Mr Mallison previously rescued six British cavers from Mexico's Cueva de Alpazat cave system.

In 2010, he joined up with Mr Stanton and Mr Volanthen to break the record for the longest ever cave dive.

The trio, along with Dutch explorer Rene Houben, spent 50 hours underground charting 5.5 miles of previously unexplored submerged caves in Mexico.

Tim Acton

Also on the scene is Tim Acton, 39, who grew up in Harwich and first learnt his trade diving off the Essex coast.

He moved to Southeast Asia 12 years ago and now runs a holiday complex in Thailand with his wife, Took.

In 2004 he was caught up in the Boxing Day Tsunami and earned a commendation from the British Ambassador for his efforts to save lives when the village where he was running a diving school was swamped.

He was invited to join the cave rescue by contacts in the Thai Navy SEALs.

He has been inside the cave system several times during the operation.

His father, John, 71, said: “There’s a total media blackout at the moment so we are getting no information.

“All I know is Tim got a call to go on stand by to go to the caves by the Thai Naval Seals and he had to send the measurements of his shoulders because they didn’t know if his shoulders were too big to go in there.

“Then he got the call to go to (Chiang Rai) they picked him up to go to the airport, apparently they are in excellent accommodation.

“He was told there were 55 naval seals in Team One and in Team Two, which he was to be part of, was the supply team with 20 ex-Naval Seals and two Westerners - Tim and his mate who is a Spaniard.

“Up until Saturday besides the two English divers who found them they were the only two Western divers, since them I’m led to believe an Australian cave diving team has gone in there.

“I’m very proud of the fact of his selflessness. He’s doing nothing different to what our armed forces, police and firemen do every day, by putting his life at risk to help someone else.

“I spoke to him just before he left ... he said he was feeling a bit nervous which I was pleased about.

“If he didn’t have any nerves I’d be a bit worried.”

**Lone Cat**

Iron_Captain wrote:
RiTides wrote:
Whoa - I just read here that that choke point is approximately 40cm... that's less than 16 inches

I don't even know if I can even fit through a 16 inch hole... makes me wonder if this isn't the route the boys took to get through the cave, as that doesn't sound fun even as an adventure!

Small openings are pretty common in caves. Crawling through a narrow hole to find all new passageways is half the fun in exploring a cave! I have squeezed myself through smaller openings than that. Though never underwater. I would never swim in a cave. That is just risky.

All this talk of caves really makes me want to do speleology again. Too bad I have already had my holiday trip this year.

Thirty-eight centemeters / Fifteen inches to be exact. just enough for a man to swim through... is this reason why, regardless of Elon Musk's capsule, the rescue team don't use it at all?

**AndrewGPaul**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Small openings are pretty common in caves. Crawling through a narrow hole to find all new passageways is half the fun in exploring a cave!

Just reading that made me feel uncomfortable.

**Kilkrazy**

All boys and coach rescued from Thai cave.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/44755093

Good job!

Four divers including a doctor are still to come out.

**Necros**

I don't even think I could fit 1 blubbery thigh through a 16 inch hole. The rest of me, no way.

CNN says they're all out now

**RiTides**

Huzzah!!! This just made my day, thanks guys

Way to go rescue divers

**Iron_Captain**

Necros wrote:
I don't even think I could fit 1 blubbery thigh through a 16 inch hole. The rest of me, no way.

CNN says they're all out now

Being small and skinny is definitely a big advantage in a cave. One of the few times being small is actually an advantage.

It is great to hear they all got out, that is totally awesome. The rescue operation truly did an amazing job.
Unfortunately the boys won't be strong enough to travel to Moscow for the World Cup finals, but they are already receiving plenty of other invitations to make up for that.

**Lone Cat**

Now the cave is evacuated. where Coach Ek was the last to leave.
And what we learn from this ?
1. Professional rescue units are compulsory. Military doesn't have primary functions of disaster reliefs nor rescue operations (except against human enemy). but in this country. resources needed for civil disaster reliefs and rescue units are overtly diverted to unneccasry operations of the Armed Forces.
2. Governments and the rightwings in Thai politics (including the so called Salims) did exploit the entire rescue operations to their ends. sometimes unpopular figures like Prayuth Chan-Ocha or Srivarah Ransibrahmnakul take this hype train political ride, for Srivarah his visits aren't really greeted well by national folks. on the civil Salim organizations this is their golden opportunity to 'reunify' nations under their banner. but will they ever have any chance to change national attitude towards solidarity as national identity rather than diversified national identities that not what the rightwing can exploits?
The incidents did show that the NCPO can not actually hold their Junta style government for long and sooner or later will be pressed towards the grand election (where their antagonists are not just Shinawatra factions, but also progressive bourgeons who found their new leader, Thanathorn Chungrunruangkit and Piyabuth Saengkanokkul.) so many of such preparations are made inroads. and this will be one.
The Armed Forces are sure to use this incident to create their propaganda, citing themselves as National Institution rather than just another branch of state servants under arms. which.. not really a good thing.
3. Thai news agencies are required to broadcast news of the same incidents in more scientific ways and must shy away form the cult of heroic personality.... After the passings of King Rama IX. those news agency appears to agitate national populace to 'seek a new hero' rather than to instill democratic and more scientific mindsets into national populace. Beginning in 1st November, Artiwarah Kongmalai (or Toon Bodyslam) initiate his charity sprint events where he began his run from Batang District, Yala Province (the farthest south of Thailand) to Maesai District, Chiangrai... a charity that raised funds to buy medical equipments and supplies for 11 hospitals that earned much of national attentions (and heftly sponsored by national business magnates likeThaiBev and CP and a couple of greedy moguls who backed the Junta and the rightwings for years (and strongly oppose any populism, let along any efforts to break their stranglehold over national economy in favor of fairplay business competitions.) News Agencies in Thailand did create a big (yet rather brief) national hype for him. the dash concluded in XMas of the same year (2017). though the most recent quests for a new national hero had found its intended target.... Sarge Sam who suffered a recent fatal diving accident.. not countings any public rites and gatherings done with or without state involvements throughout nations. mostly a series of prayers. are overtly played through the tenure of rescue operations..
And it doesn't bode a society i'm living in well. This strenghten superstitious national identity which in 21st century it shouldn't be perpetuated.
4. Do not be so brash to ignore expert advices.
5. Organization is the key.

**greatbigtree**

I'm glad to hear the team has made it out. Good news seems so rare.

**Lone Cat**

Even so. these thirteens will be hospitalized for some time. there's a concerns regarding to contageous lung diseases found in triage tents. in the first day. the last of the first batch rescued were diagnosed with such. who knows if the rest of the football team will be infected as well?

**RiTides**

I read up on that, and it looks to be something that is commonly experienced for people trapped in caves, and should resolve itself naturally.

It is great that they're being cautious with the boys' health, though - their immune systems must be really weak after this ordeal!

**d-usa**

And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

**Overread**

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/15/elon-musk-british-diver-thai-cave-rescue-pedo-twitter

Sounds like he's just mouthing off, being a billionaire doesn't make one a gentleman; even if it should at least teach one some tact when talking to the world through an official twitter.

Of course pedo accusations are a whole other ballgame and hopefully this does got further in resolution. I guess Elon didn't like being rejected from the rescue event and not getting a chance to promote himself/company as being part of the rescue effort.
A childish thing really since he could have helped pay, transport and provide pumps alone and gotten a headline without any headache.

**thecountrygoblin**

d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

Pretty nasty business to call someone a pedo, especially with nothing to support the claim!

**jouso**

thecountrygoblin wrote:
d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

Pretty nasty business to call someone a pedo, especially with nothing to support the claim!

He's deleted the tweet since.

Still zero class. The man has gone off the rails since the Tesla issues with production, he should quit twitter for a good while, or let a PR guy handle it.