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w1zard wrote:
Heck, my first experience with forgeworld was a guy coming into my FLGS and plopping down an entire army of resin. He then said he didn't have the book on him and then spent the entire game making up bullcrap rules and abilities that his units didn't actually have. I took it at face value because he was older, until I looked it up later and got pissed. It REALLY put me off against playing against forgeworld for quite awhile.

So a player blatantly cheated and you blamed the rules, not the fact that you encountered a TFG who would just find a different way to cheat if they couldn't use that particular one? I mean, you've admitted to being wrong, but that was certainly not a rational reaction to the situation.

Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

w1zard wrote:
Or to people without a stick up their rear end, it is a way of presenting an argument or an idea they don't personally believe in, but believe has merit or is worth consideration in some way.

If it has merit or consideration then you'd believe it. If you don't believe in something it's because you've considered it and found it too lacking in merit to be worth believing. Finding it lacking in merit but presenting it as if it has merit is dishonest.

Are you saying that me having to play a game against forgeworld units doesn't affect me in any way? Are you for real? It's a two player game buddy.

It has no more effect than me choosing to take a tactical squad instead of a scout squad. If FW rules are an "optional expansion" that can be vetoed then so is the optional tactical squad expansion. In fact, you'd better show me your entire list and let me veto anything that I don't want you to take, because it has an effect on me.

Stop with the persecution complex. Most of the anti-FW crowd only think that way because they view FW as unfamiliar and illegitimate in some way, despite these feelings not having a basis in fact. They don't just hate FW irrationally for no reason.

Attempting to veto something because you're unfamiliar with it is irrational behavior. Being unfamiliar with it, to a rational person, is a concession that you are too ignorant to have an informed opinion on the subject of whether or not it should be legal.

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

A) i play R&H, ergo i am lucky i can change to IG, except i need to kick out my Decimator and Heavy stubber Teams, and in the forseable future my Malcador.

B) is a non issue, if i play against a GSC, which i never have and understimate my enemy that is my problem, especially when my opponent has the List and Codex / index with him and i am certainly in the right to ask about his rules/ppm, etc.
BTW in regards to B: A pure FW army is rare and if you find someone playing a full FW army he will be fielding a weaker list, compared to Codexes and most indexes.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ayy lmao:
>has a new guy come to store
>new guy lacks rules
>new guy makes up rules
>w1zard to afraid to say he can go bite the dust and get his rules
>w1zard later looks rules up
>realises that the guy was TFG and get's angry at all FW owners
>decides to put all FW owners in the same bin
>misses point entirely that he made the mistake of playing against an opponent that has brought no rules

Again, this was your own fault and this is why people that play FW and are not a bunch of A**holes, i.e. bring their rules with them, don't like you because for them you are entierly illocigal, since it was mainly your fault for not pointing out the basic: NO RULES, NO GAME.

I was 15...

 Peregrine wrote:
If it has merit or consideration then you'd believe it. If you don't believe in something it's because you've considered it and found it too lacking in merit to be worth believing. Finding it lacking in merit but presenting it as if it has merit is dishonest.

You do realize that sometimes there are multiple right answers, and that not everything can be broken down into "right" and "wrong"? Understanding this is the key to accepting new ideas and thinking laterally. Both extremely important skills to have.

 Peregrine wrote:
Attempting to veto something because you're unfamiliar with it is irrational behavior...

I'd actually say that is pretty rational from a certain point of view. Not only that it's a pretty normal human reaction to new things. We hate the unknown.

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ayy lmao:
>has a new guy come to store
>new guy lacks rules
>new guy makes up rules
>w1zard to afraid to say he can go bite the dust and get his rules
>w1zard later looks rules up
>realises that the guy was TFG and get's angry at all FW owners
>decides to put all FW owners in the same bin
>misses point entirely that he made the mistake of playing against an opponent that has brought no rules

Again, this was your own fault and this is why people that play FW and are not a bunch of A**holes, i.e. bring their rules with them, don't like you because for them you are entierly illocigal, since it was mainly your fault for not pointing out the basic: NO RULES, NO GAME.

I was 15...

not to be mean, i can understand the feeling and animosity, but considering you were 15 which is old enough to decide yourself on most questions and decisions, i am sorry but that one is still on you.
Also you were in your FLGS, were there no other players/ shopkeeper in there? No one to oversee the matches and tables that could've told that guy to feck off?
Frankly if the later is the case, then i feel really sorry for you. Nobody should've to put up with such an asshat inthis hobby. It is enough that GW can't write non toxic rules as is.

Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

Can you please take the time to answer the question I posed above?

Removed - BrookM

Not Online!!! wrote:

not to be mean, i can understand the feeling and animosity, but considering you were 15 which is old enough to decide yourself on most questions and decisions, i am sorry but that one is still on you.
Also you were in your FLGS, were there no other players/ shopkeeper in there? No one to oversee the matches and tables that could've told that guy to feck off?
Frankly if the later is the case, then i feel really sorry for you. Nobody should've to put up with such an asshat inthis hobby. It is enough that GW can't write non toxic rules as is.

I was also new to the hobby and the guy was much older than me in his 30s so I believed him. Yeah taking him at face value was probably pretty dumb, but hindsight is 20/20. You do also realize you're blaming a 15 year old for being fooled by an adult right?

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

You realise by lumping all people on one side of the debate together like that comes across just as bad right?

Personally I see Forgeworld as legitimate in any 40k. People are free to play their games however they want, but to me the baseline is that Forgeworld should be allowed. The player must of course have the correct rules!

Peregrine wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I am playing devil's advocate.

Then stop. Playing devil's advocate means presenting an argument that you know is false. AKA dishonesty.

(And this goes for playing devil's advocate in general. It's a concept I really wish would die.)

Devil's advocate actually describes someone who takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further. Which you would think would be a perfectly OK thing to do on a discussion forum...

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, it's the thread about pro FW zealots piling on everyone who dares post anything but "all hail FW" again.

As apposed to the thread about anti FW zealots who pile on everyone who dares post anything but "all curse FW...and the codex options" again...

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

not to be mean, i can understand the feeling and animosity, but considering you were 15 which is old enough to decide yourself on most questions and decisions, i am sorry but that one is still on you.
Also you were in your FLGS, were there no other players/ shopkeeper in there? No one to oversee the matches and tables that could've told that guy to feck off?
Frankly if the later is the case, then i feel really sorry for you. Nobody should've to put up with such an asshat inthis hobby. It is enough that GW can't write non toxic rules as is.

I was also new to the hobby and the guy was much older than me in his 30s so I believed him. Yeah taking him at face value was probably pretty dumb, but hindsight is 20/20. You do also realize you're kind of blaming a 15 year old for being fooled by an adult right?

Guess i was more sceptical at that age, somebody tried to pull something similar when i was 16. Granted it was a new Codex and i asked the Shopkeep if that was true.
Turns out my shopkeep was running the same army as that guy, even had the same FW dread at the time. promptly proceeded to kick the guy out.

Yeah, that makes more sense then, i'd like to appologize then.
Something like that should really not happen in a FLGS which lives by it's community... in such a case it is understandable, still not good but certainly understandable.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah, that makes more sense then, i'd like to appologize then.
Something like that should really not happen in a FLGS which lives by it's community... in such a case it is understandable, still not good but certainly understandable.

Not a problem, I figured you didn't mean any offense by it. I was a sheltered kid... too sheltered.

I stopped going to that store shortly after that. The store owner only played WHFB and had one 40k table for gaks. He was also really apathetic about pretty much everything. I don't really think he would have cared, even if he knew the guy was cheating (he didn't because he didn't play 40k).

 Peregrine wrote:
So a player blatantly cheated and you blamed the rules, not the fact that you encountered a TFG who would just find a different way to cheat if they couldn't use that particular one? I mean, you've admitted to being wrong, but that was certainly not a rational reaction to the situation.

Sure, but a first bad impression is hard to get over. I thought he was using FW to simply take advantage of other people's ignorance of the rules, and that colored my opinion on FW thereafter. I calmed down after awhile and realized that I shouldn't make judgments about an entire model line simply because one bad apple cheated with it, but I always asked to see their rulebook beforehand, and I never agreed to play against FW unless they asked me nicely first.

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah, that makes more sense then, i'd like to appologize then.
Something like that should really not happen in a FLGS which lives by it's community... in such a case it is understandable, still not good but certainly understandable.

Not a problem, I figured you didn't mean any offense by it. I was a sheltered kid... too sheltered.

I stopped going to that store shortly after that. The store owner only played WHFB and had one 40k table for gaks. He was also really apathetic about pretty much everything. I don't really think he would have cared, even if he knew the guy was cheating (he didn't because he didn't play 40k).

Here's the thing though, if you run a FLGS that sells a game system, it should also have the rules avilable, all the time and preferentially it should also have shopkeeps that play in the systems themselves.
Granted that is difficult, especially in the more midsized shops that can't afford additional personell, but still giving open and free acess to all the rules is something that should be done in the store anyways.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Here's the thing though, if you run a FLGS that sells a game system, it should also have the rules avilable, all the time and preferentially it should also have shopkeeps that play in the systems themselves.
Granted that is difficult, especially in the more midsized shops that can't afford additional personell, but still giving open and free acess to all the rules is something that should be done in the store anyways.

Even forgeworld rulebooks?

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Here's the thing though, if you run a FLGS that sells a game system, it should also have the rules avilable, all the time and preferentially it should also have shopkeeps that play in the systems themselves.
Granted that is difficult, especially in the more midsized shops that can't afford additional personell, but still giving open and free acess to all the rules is something that should be done in the store anyways.

Even forgeworld rulebooks?

Actually yes, why would they not? normally those rules are brought by the players that have FW or one or 2 Fw rules, photocopy those that are used, put them in a special folder and voila, all the rules that are commonly used and their options avilable aswell as the Codexes / indexes used for showing them to new blood and to let the people have a look at the rules.

Not Online!!! wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah, that makes more sense then, i'd like to appologize then.
Something like that should really not happen in a FLGS which lives by it's community... in such a case it is understandable, still not good but certainly understandable.

Not a problem, I figured you didn't mean any offense by it. I was a sheltered kid... too sheltered.

I stopped going to that store shortly after that. The store owner only played WHFB and had one 40k table for gaks. He was also really apathetic about pretty much everything. I don't really think he would have cared, even if he knew the guy was cheating (he didn't because he didn't play 40k).

Here's the thing though, if you run a FLGS that sells a game system, it should also have the rules avilable, all the time and preferentially it should also have shopkeeps that play in the systems themselves.
Granted that is difficult, especially in the more midsized shops that can't afford additional personell, but still giving open and free acess to all the rules is something that should be done in the store anyways.

It's a nice idea, but frankly it's not practical. You're saying the store should have free to browse copies of every single codex, index, and rulebook for 40k, including Forgeworld. That's a huge cost to the shop, which probably has tight margins. Especially considering they'll likely be redundant in a couple of years. And that's just one game, do it all again for Sigmar and so on.

@Stux
Online versions of the FW indexes and Codexes are dirt cheap, paper is cheap.
nuff said.
Also browse codexes are just given, always thought that as a good way to let people get a sneakpeak into codexes and maybee make a better decision for their army.
In the end it certainly helps to get new blood into the hobby, aswell as keeping veterans. It is a win /win because if you get those ultimately you make more money from your community as a shopkeep.

FW is the only way for me to play fluffy Iron Warriors, with hordes of slaves herded to slaughter by grim enforcers as masses of artillery pound the enemys lines in great cacophonic orchestra of death. All of this being observed by emotionless siegemasters flanked by their hulking and twisted bodyguards clad in baroque armor that still bear the echoes of a better age…

Ahem, its just nice to have some more options, since the souping mostly eliminates the need to learn and use each armies strenghts and weaknesses anyways

Neither is assuming everyone is ok when you make assumptions.

Not Online!!! wrote:
@Stux
Online versions of the FW indexes and Codexes are dirt cheap, paper is cheap.
nuff said.
Also browse codexes are just given, always thought that as a good way to let people get a sneakpeak into codexes and maybee make a better decision for their army.
In the end it certainly helps to get new blood into the hobby, aswell as keeping veterans. It is a win /win because if you get those ultimately you make more money from your community as a shopkeep.

Cheap, but probably not legal for an FLGS. Or at least it would be a quick way to get GW to stop stocking to them.

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

I'm not Familiar with most armies. It if you're playing the planning on playing me, you better have the ruleset. I bring all my books, especially the Imperial Armour book when I play. For such the occasion my opponent wants to check my stuff. I expect the same from them. If you're playing FW stuff and don't have the book, find something else because Battlescribe doesn't count.

But I think getting denied just because it's resin instead of plastic is hot garbage. I've already dealt with that on a tournament level. It's not cool.

This type of thread pops up now and again and I genuinely start to wonder if people actually regularly play Forgeworld, either with or against.

When I do get to play, I almost always play against Forgeworld units, and they are amount always inferior to codex units and are actually just run because they are cool.

An example: my Orks don't leave home without their squiggoths. I have a squiggoth and a gargantuan squiggoth in my 1000 point Ork army. It's amazing a lot of the moaning and hateful glares I get as someone deals the last wound to the gargantuan squiggoth by the end of turn 2. They'll complain about how broken he is even as I remove him from the table. He's not broken. He's not even good. But he is cool as hell and I spent a lot of time on him, so I field him every chance I get. He's never survived past turn 3 and I've never won a game using him. But that doesn't stop people from complaining, because Forgeworld.

There are exceptions, like quad launchers in 7th edition, which most people didn't actually own and instead converted from either junk (saw one made of straws and k'nex wheels at a tournament once) or cheaper 3rd party alternatives. For the most part, however, most of those FW aren't even close to the power of the plastic GW stuff (for instance, why take Death Korps when you can run conscripts and be more effective for cheaper or shadow specters when dark reapers ar better and more survivable in almost every situation).

As far as those rules guys go, I INSIST that my opponent have their rules with them at all times, regardless of if they're playing GW or FW. That's just common courtesy and you're setting the game up for failure if you don't have your rules or your opponent doesn't have theirs. I've played this game for years in each addition and I STILL forget the profile of a tactical marine. I can't expect my opponent to do better.

Caederes wrote:
Here's a simple question I pose to everyone reading this thread;
What is worse?

a) Being denied usage of your models for no other reason except they are from Forge World.

b) Getting smashed in a game because you don't know the rules for your opponent's army.

Definitely A. You can resolve B by asking about the rules or educating yourself and is something that can happen regardless of which department of the company made the rules. You can't resolve resolve elitism as easily.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They don't need a "be nice" approach when there is no reason to be anti-FW in the first place.

So the best solution to someone who politely tells you they don't play with the same toy men as you is to be the biggest jerk you can. That'll show em'

Telling someone to change their perfectly valid army to accomodate your preferences without even offering a reason that makes sense isn't polite.

This is the big difference between the two sides, only one side is demanding that other people change their armies to accomodate them. It's on them to offer an excellent justification for that.

The question isn't whether or not an army with FW is legitimate. The question is what are you going to do when they say no. Are you going to force them to play? As far as their concerned, their reason for telling you no was valid. They didn't insult you. You insulted them however in response. Maybe you don't see it that way, but that's what they're thinking. So someone asked for a game, and one guy said sure, just no FW. What are you going to do? Insult him and verify everything he thinks is right? That you're an over aggressive WAAC player? Are you going to give him a lecture that will only piss him off, and again, verify to him what he already 'knows'? Because all you're doing is keeping them from seeing your point of view. You might think that's stupid, but you and several others are doing it right now. People are telling you reasons they don't like playing against FW, and for them those are valid reasons. They have real life experiences that tell them FW is just a quick way to a sucky game.

Maybe being significantly less abrasive might get you your way. Maybe, if you'r going to be hitting that store for awhile, play a couple games without, and then add some in over time. Let them see that A: your FW stuff isn't that bad, and B: you're not going to drop six fire raptors on them. Otherwise all you're doing is reinforcing what they believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Actually, it's perfectly reasonable to expect things to stay relatively the same between editions. Considering all the doom and gloom about space marines, it seems all anyone does.

Your board game example doesn't work. You're comparing thing that have nothing in common. You might as well compare a banana and Mars for all the good it does.

 godswildcard wrote:
This type of thread pops up now and again and I genuinely start to wonder if people actually regularly play Forgeworld, either with or against.

When I do get to play, I almost always play against Forgeworld units, and they are amount always inferior to codex units and are actually just run because they are cool.

An example: my Orks don't leave home without their squiggoths. I have a squiggoth and a gargantuan squiggoth in my 1000 point Ork army. It's amazing a lot of the moaning and hateful glares I get as someone deals the last wound to the gargantuan squiggoth by the end of turn 2. They'll complain about how broken he is even as I remove him from the table. He's not broken. He's not even good. But he is cool as hell and I spent a lot of time on him, so I field him every chance I get. He's never survived past turn 3 and I've never won a game using him. But that doesn't stop people from complaining, because Forgeworld.

There are exceptions, like quad launchers in 7th edition, which most people didn't actually own and instead converted from either junk (saw one made of straws and k'nex wheels at a tournament once) or cheaper 3rd party alternatives. For the most part, however, most of those FW aren't even close to the power of the plastic GW stuff (for instance, why take Death Korps when you can run conscripts and be more effective for cheaper or shadow specters when dark reapers ar better and more survivable in almost every situation).

As far as those rules guys go, I INSIST that my opponent have their rules with them at all times, regardless of if they're playing GW or FW. That's just common courtesy and you're setting the game up for failure if you don't have your rules or your opponent doesn't have theirs. I've played this game for years in each addition and I STILL forget the profile of a tactical marine. I can't expect my opponent to do better.

I use FW quite regularly anymore. Not many others at my LGS do. Most of the guys would rather buy plastic instead. I'd love for someone to drop some FW stuff against me.

I have real life experinces that marines are a quick way to a sucky game, am I in the right if I decided to say "just no marines" regardless of the person who owns the marines? (yes I am but i'm the moron who can' seperate tfg's from the army they play)

Thank the gods the vast majority of folks are reasonable.