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 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
SIA intercessors still cost too much at 20 ppm. That's too much liability in a game as lethal as 8th ed.

Perhaps. But SIA Intercessor for 20 points is hella better deal than Intercessor without SIA for 18 points.

I think this was more what I tried to convey earlier.

There is an expectation that Marines should beat all CWE troops in a firefight. The numbers have been run (they're each about equal vs Marines as-is, destroyed by 2W Marines - except Storm Guardians, but nobody cares about them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit - CWE don't actually have basic rifle dudes.

Not just cwe. All troops. Because they are all slots, effectively. CWE also has poor infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
18 pt intercessors are unfieldable because anyone csn ignore them all game. I know i do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Stux wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Stux wrote:

Bharring wrote:
In the open. Engaging toe-to-toe in a fireline. Never attempting to close.

Change any *one* of those 3 things (use cover, force concentration, or get closer), and Marines do actually win the small arms fight.

That said, not by enough, and they lose too much in other ways. So they're worse overall. But Marines do win in some categories.

Absolutely, all very true. I'm not saying the calculation is truly representative of what would happen in a battle, but conversely I've not given Guard an officer to issue FRFSRF or anything like that.

The point is to show how much of a hill Marines have to climb to get an advantage at all.

But if you swap 4ppm guardsmen squads for 5ppm guardsmen squads how do things go is it close. If that works and marines trade ok ish with other troops their is the solution.

Marines win after 9 turns. 2 marines left standing.

That's with Marines starting first still.

That sounds more like the true issue, because marines beating Fire warriors point for point in a gun fight doesn't sound right.

Marine's seem weak but when you stop compairing them to guardsmen they don't sound so bad.

It's fine, because marines need the best troops hands down because their troops are also their heavies, their elites, etc. This would balance marines at an army level.

Except marines shouldn't be better than everyone else point for point, that doesn't result in a balanced game.

Yes right now they are over paying for weapons but that's because BS3+ and BS4+ weapon costs are totally out of whack.

But marines outshooting firewarriors isn't balanced because marines should be charging firewarriors, in which case they will destroy firewarriors, if your having a stand up shooting match with Tau you should be loosing as it's supposed to be their thing.

Ironically at the moment Astra MillaBOGOF is actually better at it than everyone in the game and so cheap Close combat doesn't work either.

If they're only better than opposing troops, it works out.

Bharring wrote:
There is an expectation that Marines should beat all CWE troops in a firefight. The numbers have been run (they're each about equal vs Marines as-is, destroyed by 2W Marines - except Storm Guardians, but nobody cares about them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit - CWE don't actually have basic rifle dudes.

That's because Storm Guardians just don't make any sense...

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Most people want Marines to not suck. And most people think they're subpar right now. But most people don't want 2W Marines with Bladestorm or 13ppm Intercessors. That's not not "bad". That's stupidly OP.

Marines need to have two wounds to for proper durability against small arms fire. The old marine statline just is not functional as elite infantry under the current system.

This will never happen now that Primaris have been released. Do you understand?

 Primark G wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Most people want Marines to not suck. And most people think they're subpar right now. But most people don't want 2W Marines with Bladestorm or 13ppm Intercessors. That's not not "bad". That's stupidly OP.

Marines need to have two wounds to for proper durability against small arms fire. The old marine statline just is not functional as elite infantry under the current system.

This will never happen now that Primaris have been released. Do you understand?

What will not happen? Non-legacy marines already have two wounds. No, I don't expect tactical marines to be fixed at this point any more than I expect Bretonnians to be fixed. I'd appreciate some buffs for the Primaris though.

The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

In the straight up shooting match, Intercessors last until turn 7 before equal points of Guardsmen wipe them out.

However, Intercessors ARE proportionally better in melee. With equal points, after 14 fights (7 battle rounds) the Intercessors win. This is still all giving the Marine player the advantage of the first turn, and takes in to account that alternating nature of who goes first in subsequent fight phases.

Stux wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

In the straight up shooting match, Intercessors last until turn 7 before equal points of Guardsmen wipe them out.

However, Intercessors ARE proportionally better in melee. With equal points, after 14 fights (7 battle rounds) the Intercessors win. This is still all giving the Marine player the advantage of the first turn, and takes in to account that alternating nature of who goes first in subsequent fight phases.

That's because Intercessors are 9 points per S4 attack and wound. My question is how do Deathwatch ones fare? They're 20 points instead but there is better range capabilities.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

In the straight up shooting match, Intercessors last until turn 7 before equal points of Guardsmen wipe them out.

However, Intercessors ARE proportionally better in melee. With equal points, after 14 fights (7 battle rounds) the Intercessors win. This is still all giving the Marine player the advantage of the first turn, and takes in to account that alternating nature of who goes first in subsequent fight phases.

That's because Intercessors are 9 points per S4 attack and wound. My question is how do Deathwatch ones fare? They're 20 points instead but there is better range capabilities.

My model doesn't take range into account, so all else being equal they will do worse as they cost more.

I don't know Deathwatch though so I don't know about other factors. They have special ammo right?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Guard, and lots of other infantry carry anti-tank weaponry. Do you want marines to be as tough as tanks? Because that's a non starter.

The difference between T3 and T4 matter in an infantry skirmish. They matter less in an open field tank conflict. As they should.

the problem, is of course too many anti-tank weapons. part of this IMHO is the wide spread of invul saves, so everyone packs a TON of high powered weapons to kill units with invul saves.

Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

In the straight up shooting match, Intercessors last until turn 7 before equal points of Guardsmen wipe them out.

However, Intercessors ARE proportionally better in melee. With equal points, after 14 fights (7 battle rounds) the Intercessors win. This is still all giving the Marine player the advantage of the first turn, and takes in to account that alternating nature of who goes first in subsequent fight phases.

That's because Intercessors are 9 points per S4 attack and wound. My question is how do Deathwatch ones fare? They're 20 points instead but there is better range capabilities.

My model doesn't take range into account, so all else being equal they will do worse as they cost more.

I don't know Deathwatch though so I don't know about other factors. They have special ammo right?

Assuming you chose Troops with their Tactic thing to reroll 1's to wound, they then either shoot at:
S4 AP-2 Rapid Fire 36"
S4 AP-1 Rapid Fire 30" Always Wounds on 2+
S4 AP-1 Rapid Fire 30" BS2+ If they're in cover

Obviously the S4 AP-3 Rapid Fire 24" round doesn't matter.

HOWEVER, if you make them a point more, you gain the following profiles instead:
S4 AP-1 Assault 2 30"
S4 AP-0 Assault 2 24" Always Wounds on 2+
S4 AP-0 Assault 2 24" BS2+ if they're in cover
S4 AP-2 Assault 2 18"

First off melee:

That 2pt increase is enough to put guard back on top. Guard wipe out the marines in 6 battlerounds.

Shooting with special ammo:

When you aren't in cover, this is the best one against Guard
S4 AP-1 Rapid Fire 30" Always Wounds on 2+

The Assault ones are irrelevant for this model, as range is not taken into account so I'm ignoring them.

With this ammo, I'm afraid they still lose to Guardsmen, though they are a little better. They die in round 7 and take a few more Guard with them.

The damage/point Vs Guardsmen is 11% higher for DW Intercessors over regular Intercessors.

I feel like what marines really need is an extra attack in melee. It would really help to seal them as a CC army and fix alot of their bad units like terminators and assault marines without being over bearing on decent stuff things like devastator marines and razor backs since they do not want to be in assault to much.

The marine vs guardsmen comparisons is really only useful to a point.

The codex as a whole suffers from a severe lack of functionality in 8th edition.

They are the most basic faction that follows the majority of the rules in the game with the least number of special abilities. Their faction bonuses mostly amount to rerolls, which are nice but but not enough to outweigh the advantages of other factions.

Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them.

Chapter tactics not effecting vehicles is also strange.

Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.

For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much.

Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.

In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower.

This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily.

Primaris are a different, very strange, issue. The second wound is useful against very weak guns, but pointless once 2D are aimed at them. The abundance of low invul saves, negatives to hit, and Necron shields make high rate of fire, low AP medium damage like autocannons very effective, and these weapons also vaporize primaris, so it's very likely that a topically army will be able to kill a fair number of them with D2+ weapons before having to use 1D weapons, which are still fairly effective when you look at what the primaris cost.

Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real.

jcd386 wrote:
The marine vs guardsmen comparisons is really only useful to a point.

The codex as a whole suffers from a severe lack of functionality in 8th edition.

They are the most basic faction that follows the majority of the rules in the game with the least number of special abilities. Their faction bonuses mostly amount to rerolls, which are nice but but not enough to outweigh the advantages of other factions.

Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them.

Chapter tactics not effecting vehicles is also strange.

Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.

For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much.

Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.

In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower.

This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily.

Primaris are a different, very strange, issue. The second wound is useful against very weak guns, but pointless once 2D are aimed at them. The abundance of low invul saves, negatives to hit, and Necron shields make high rate of fire, low AP medium damage like autocannons very effective, and these weapons also vaporize primaris, so it's very likely that a topically army will be able to kill a fair number of them with D2+ weapons before having to use 1D weapons, which are still fairly effective when you look at what the primaris cost.

Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real.

Good sum up of the issues.

Also don’t forget that glorious atsknf might save a dude once every five games.

jcd386 wrote:
The marine vs guardsmen comparisons is really only useful to a point.

The codex as a whole suffers from a severe lack of functionality in 8th edition.

They are the most basic faction that follows the majority of the rules in the game with the least number of special abilities. Their faction bonuses mostly amount to rerolls, which are nice but but not enough to outweigh the advantages of other factions.

Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them.

Chapter tactics not effecting vehicles is also strange.

Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.

For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much.

Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.

In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower.

This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily.

Primaris are a different, very strange, issue. The second wound is useful against very weak guns, but pointless once 2D are aimed at them. The abundance of low invul saves, negatives to hit, and Necron shields make high rate of fire, low AP medium damage like autocannons very effective, and these weapons also vaporize primaris, so it's very likely that a topically army will be able to kill a fair number of them with D2+ weapons before having to use 1D weapons, which are still fairly effective when you look at what the primaris cost.

Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real.

This is the best summary ever.

Marines aren't, mechanically, supposed to be the best at anything.

They are, mechanically, meant to be 2nd best at everything. If your opponent is shooty, you beat them in CC. If your opponent is slow, you beat them at speed. If your opponent is choppy, you shoot them down. If your opponent is fast, you beat them with durability.

Marines are, mechanically, reactionary. They're built to give you solutions to overcome your opponent, not problems for your opponent to overcome. Every opponent that faces a Marine knows how their faction should tackle Marines. Marines have to change their tactics every game to account for how to defeat a specific opponent.

Blood Angels, for example, still need shooting elements in case they're facing superior assault. They must use shooting to weaken the opponent's assault elements until the "tipping point" at which point they can use their assault tools to win the game. Different flavours of Marine have different tipping points for this shift.

Salamanders, for example, must take out the "Big Stuff" with shooting at 24", before closing on the little stuff and shooting things down at 8", before being assaulted and relying on "better than average" assault upgrades.

Ultramarines need to use speedbumps so that they can have controlled fallback to keep steady shooting pressure on units that are advancing, until the opponent's advance stalls and they can counter-advance.


But each of these armies has a "tipping point" at which you need to shift your overall strategy to achieve victory.

That's the skill required to play marines. It is, mechanically, one of the more interesting armies to play because each opponent is a different story. They aren't supposed to overwhelm an opponent in one consistent method of attack. A player will be disappointed in the Marine army if they hope this is the case.

You may have an overall strategy that relies more heavily on one aspect of the game than the others, but you will run into other armies that are better at it then you are. When that happens, you need to have a plan B that can get you back to plan A, so that you can win.

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

Ok, but if they would focus on primaris it would leave marine armies that don't have access to them in a dump.

Karol wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

Ok, but if they would focus on primaris it would leave marine armies that don't have access to them in a dump.

I'm sure there will be Grey Knight Primaris eventually.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Marines aren't, mechanically, supposed to be the best at anything.

They are, mechanically, meant to be 2nd best at everything. If your opponent is shooty, you beat them in CC. If your opponent is slow, you beat them at speed. If your opponent is choppy, you shoot them down. If your opponent is fast, you beat them with durability.

Marines are, mechanically, reactionary. They're built to give you solutions to overcome your opponent, not problems for your opponent to overcome. Every opponent that faces a Marine knows how their faction should tackle Marines. Marines have to change their tactics every game to account for how to defeat a specific opponent.

Blood Angels, for example, still need shooting elements in case they're facing superior assault. They must use shooting to weaken the opponent's assault elements until the "tipping point" at which point they can use their assault tools to win the game. Different flavours of Marine have different tipping points for this shift.

Salamanders, for example, must take out the "Big Stuff" with shooting at 24", before closing on the little stuff and shooting things down at 8", before being assaulted and relying on "better than average" assault upgrades.

Ultramarines need to use speedbumps so that they can have controlled fallback to keep steady shooting pressure on units that are advancing, until the opponent's advance stalls and they can counter-advance.


But each of these armies has a "tipping point" at which you need to shift your overall strategy to achieve victory.

That's the skill required to play marines. It is, mechanically, one of the more interesting armies to play because each opponent is a different story. They aren't supposed to overwhelm an opponent in one consistent method of attack. A player will be disappointed in the Marine army if they hope this is the case.

You may have an overall strategy that relies more heavily on one aspect of the game than the others, but you will run into other armies that are better at it then you are. When that happens, you need to have a plan B that can get you back to plan A, so that you can win.

I agree with this in terms of what they should be. The problem is that Marine armies are inferior to several others on every single front.

"Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them."

Slow compared to what? Eldar? We're not going to get Eldar speeds for Rhinos, and we shouldn't. Otherwise we have a transport Flyer, which is insanely fast. We also have Drop Pods, which are instant delivery, and you disembark after delivery. Are they too expensive? Many say yes. I say Rhinos and Pods are cheaper than many options in other codexes.

Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.

Same as most factions. Vypers and War Walkers suffer the same penalties for moving when armed with anything other than Shuriken Cannons. Guard Tanks also get shut down easily via close combat. Welcome to 8th ed.

"For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much. "

Moving is only a -1 to hit, and we have easier access to mass re-rolls than anyone else. Buck up and move if you need to. Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Grav Cannons and Plasma Cannons all have multiple shots. The Space Marine armory is larger than any other faction, too. Saying that we're limited to one shot heavy weapons is nonsense.

"Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.

In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower."

If you use basic marines, you bypass the benefits multiple damage weapons.

"This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily."

The Leviathan has a 2+ save, and so ignores AP beyond -2. Marines in cover have a 5+ against AP-3. Dark Reapers only have AP -2, and shooting weapons beyond a -3 are pretty rare.

"Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real. "

Basic Marines can get negatives to hit (Raven Guard), or Fly-Lite (Ultramarines). Their access to massed re-rolls is better than any other army, and their re-rolls come on the most customize-able heroes of any army.

 Crimson wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The focus should be on Primaris. What I have found is Primaris are widely accepted too.

Ok, but if they would focus on primaris it would leave marine armies that don't have access to them in a dump.

I'm sure there will be Grey Knight Primaris eventually.

Someone pointed out to that a primaris stat line, jetbikes etc where pointed as the thing that could fix GK in prior editions, and that GW ended up doing all those things, and just giving them to a totaly new army that is not GK.. Plus what does eventually mean, it takes them a year to make a paid rules update, and new rules, so I have been told, are linked to new models. If GW had primaris for GK ready they would have been droped with the codex. So the eventually can mean more then a year or two, and this means we are entering new edition.

Moving is only a -1 to hit, and we have easier access to mass re-rolls than anyone else. Buck up and move if you need to. Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Grav Cannons and Plasma Cannons all have multiple shots. The Space Marine armory is larger than any other faction, too. Saying that we're limited to one shot heavy weapons is nonsense.

That is not true for all marines. Some marines don't have access to re-rolls.

@ Stux:

Which armies are Marines inferior to in all of these categories, at the same time?

Movement
Shooting
Assault
Durability

They can out-move and out-assault Guard.

I assume they can out-Durable and out-assault Eldar... though I haven't played them in 8th.

Those are the big-bad boogeymen that I'm aware of. Which armies are they incapbable of outperforming in all 4 elements?

You forget some key elements, chief:
1. Guard dont need to move, so out-moving them doesn't accomplish anything. Also this new codex gave ways around that compared to the Marine codex
2. You can't out-assault an army that's more durable than you, and then they walk away and stuff shoots you
3. You can't out-assault Eldar because you can't reach them and they outshoot you

Like, what are you talking about?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You forget some key elements, chief:
1. Guard dont need to move, so out-moving them doesn't accomplish anything. Also this new codex gave ways around that compared to the Marine codex
2. You can't out-assault an army that's more durable than you, and then they walk away and stuff shoots you
3. You can't out-assault Eldar because you can't reach them and they outshoot you

Like, what are you talking about?

What are you talking about? Guard are vulnerable to assult with their tanks especially. That they like to stay still only makes them more vulnerable to fast units. If you tie up their vehicles and kill their infantry you will get an advantage.

The eldar are not unreachable. Transports, jump packs and bikes outpace their infantry. You can wound their tanks with shooting to lower their speed.

Sure both guard and eldar have strengths and cheap units. But they are not without weaknesses.

 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Stux:
I assume they can out-Durable and out-assault Eldar... though I haven't played them in 8th.

Play against them. Then come back crying.

 Insectum7 wrote:

"Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them."

Slow compared to what? Eldar? We're not going to get Eldar speeds for Rhinos, and we shouldn't. Otherwise we have a transport Flyer, which is insanely fast. We also have Drop Pods, which are instant delivery, and you disembark after delivery. Are they too expensive? Many say yes. I say Rhinos and Pods are cheaper than many options in other codexes.

Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.

Same as most factions. Vypers and War Walkers suffer the same penalties for moving when armed with anything other than Shuriken Cannons. Guard Tanks also get shut down easily via close combat. Welcome to 8th ed.

"For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much. "

Moving is only a -1 to hit, and we have easier access to mass re-rolls than anyone else. Buck up and move if you need to. Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Grav Cannons and Plasma Cannons all have multiple shots. The Space Marine armory is larger than any other faction, too. Saying that we're limited to one shot heavy weapons is nonsense.

"Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.

In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower."

If you use basic marines, you bypass the benefits multiple damage weapons.

"This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily."

The Leviathan has a 2+ save, and so ignores AP beyond -2. Marines in cover have a 5+ against AP-3. Dark Reapers only have AP -2, and shooting weapons beyond a -3 are pretty rare.

"Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real. "

Basic Marines can get negatives to hit (Raven Guard), or Fly-Lite (Ultramarines). Their access to massed re-rolls is better than any other army, and their re-rolls come on the most customize-able heroes of any army.

So, marines have 0 problem and are T1, ok thanks for your help, can you stop complaining with your non sense ?
Seriously, drop pod as an advantage ? Because it is mobile ? And were you speaking about the more than 300 pts stormraven ?
Ofc we have good things, but THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE , that's the point
We don't even have chapter tactics on our vehicles !