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Which armies are Marines inferior to in all of these categories, at the same time?
Movement
Shooting
Assault
Durability
They can out-move and out-assault Guard.
I assume they can out-Durable and out-assault Eldar... though I haven't played them in 8th.
Those are the big-bad boogeymen that I'm aware of. Which armies are they incapbable of outperforming in all 4 elements?
Well first off let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. Are you saying that marines can make a TAAC list that can effectively exploit the weaknesses of any opposing TAAC list? Or are you saying that Marines can tailor a list strong enough to exploit the weaknesses of any specific army even knowing that they are able to tailor their list against Marines? Or both?
jcd386 wrote: The marine vs guardsmen comparisons is really only useful to a point.
The codex as a whole suffers from a severe lack of functionality in 8th edition.
They are the most basic faction that follows the majority of the rules in the game with the least number of special abilities. Their faction bonuses mostly amount to rerolls, which are nice but but not enough to outweigh the advantages of other factions.
Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them.
Chapter tactics not effecting vehicles is also strange.
Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.
For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much.
Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.
In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower.
This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily.
Primaris are a different, very strange, issue. The second wound is useful against very weak guns, but pointless once 2D are aimed at them. The abundance of low invul saves, negatives to hit, and Necron shields make high rate of fire, low AP medium damage like autocannons very effective, and these weapons also vaporize primaris, so it's very likely that a topically army will be able to kill a fair number of them with D2+ weapons before having to use 1D weapons, which are still fairly effective when you look at what the primaris cost.
Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real.
Which armies are Marines inferior to in all of these categories, at the same time?
Movement
Shooting
Assault
Durability
They can out-move and out-assault Guard.
I assume they can out-Durable and out-assault Eldar... though I haven't played them in 8th.
Those are the big-bad boogeymen that I'm aware of. Which armies are they incapbable of outperforming in all 4 elements?
Marines are inferior to guard in every way.
Movement - deep strike scions - russes can repossition and still doubleshoot with no negatives - MOVE MOVE MOVE.
Shooting - basically the whole codex is better at shooting that marines for the cost. Compare a whirlwind to a basalisk and try not to laugh.
Assault - ehh - questionable - a catachan brigade with straken with abolsutely murder marines in CC - plus they still outshoot them.
Durability - marines and their associated codexes are the most fragile armies in the game.
Phychic - Better spells make them superior.
Just think about it like this. Give each army a grade of 1-5 in these elements - accounting for all their buffs and how strong an army can be if they build around that.
I could go on and on but really the only 2 armies that don't outperform marines in almost every aspect are admech and greyknights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 17:26:36
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I am fine with the whirlwind being kinda meh as long as it's priced accordingly, is it? Anyway the reason I'm okay with it and other marine vehicles being sub par but comparable is because I always saw marines as THE infantry army. They tote their heavy weapons in their hands or on their shoulders, if they need something bigger mount it on a dread, basically large mechanized infantry.
Anyway that's just my vision, if I wanted to have a bunch of tanks I'd play guard. Which is why I can understand this push for marines being better, that Stateline is in. every slot of the codex, probably making up at least 50 of the 80 some data sheets in it.
fraser1191 wrote: I am fine with the whirlwind being kinda meh as long as it's priced accordingly, is it? Anyway the reason I'm okay with it and other marine vehicles being sub par but comparable is because I always saw marines as THE infantry army. They tote their heavy weapons in their hands or on their shoulders, if they need something bigger mount it on a dread, basically large mechanized infantry.
Anyway that's just my vision, if I wanted to have a bunch of tanks I'd play guard. Which is why I can understand this push for marines being better, that Stateline is in. every slot of the codex, probably making up at least 50 of the 80 some data sheets in it.
I agree, and that means the infantry needs to be able to deliver. And they don't
fraser1191 wrote: I am fine with the whirlwind being kinda meh as long as it's priced accordingly, is it? Anyway the reason I'm okay with it and other marine vehicles being sub par but comparable is because I always saw marines as THE infantry army. They tote their heavy weapons in their hands or on their shoulders, if they need something bigger mount it on a dread, basically large mechanized infantry.
Anyway that's just my vision, if I wanted to have a bunch of tanks I'd play guard. Which is why I can understand this push for marines being better, that Stateline is in. every slot of the codex, probably making up at least 50 of the 80 some data sheets in it.
That's the wierd thing marine tanks arn't too bad compaired to xeno tanks, but compair them to guard tanks and they are laughable poorly costed in comparison.
Guard stuff is horribly wrongly costed army wide, which makes marines vrs guard comparison biased because balanced marines would be weak vrs undercosted guard.
Marines also suffer from poor strategums and a lack of CP generation from the high base cost of their troops.
Also lacking chapter tactics on armour etc also squews the balance of marine vehicals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 17:56:36
fraser1191 wrote: I am fine with the whirlwind being kinda meh as long as it's priced accordingly, is it? Anyway the reason I'm okay with it and other marine vehicles being sub par but comparable is because I always saw marines as THE infantry army. They tote their heavy weapons in their hands or on their shoulders, if they need something bigger mount it on a dread, basically large mechanized infantry.
Anyway that's just my vision, if I wanted to have a bunch of tanks I'd play guard. Which is why I can understand this push for marines being better, that Stateline is in. every slot of the codex, probably making up at least 50 of the 80 some data sheets in it.
Yeah true - I'm okay with the marine option having inferior stats for their vehicals - they just need to pay a lot less. In the same right though - in performance - marine infantry should be the gems of the codex (they are the worst in the codex).
fraser1191 wrote: I am fine with the whirlwind being kinda meh as long as it's priced accordingly, is it? Anyway the reason I'm okay with it and other marine vehicles being sub par but comparable is because I always saw marines as THE infantry army. They tote their heavy weapons in their hands or on their shoulders, if they need something bigger mount it on a dread, basically large mechanized infantry.
Anyway that's just my vision, if I wanted to have a bunch of tanks I'd play guard. Which is why I can understand this push for marines being better, that Stateline is in. every slot of the codex, probably making up at least 50 of the 80 some data sheets in it.
That's the wierd thing marine tanks arn't too bad compaired to xeno tanks, but compair them to guard tanks and they are laughable poorly costed in comparison.
Guard stuff is horribly wrongly costed army wide, which makes marines vrs guard comparison biased because balanced marines would be weak vrs undercosted guard.
Marines also suffer from poor strategums and a lack of CP generation from the high base cost of their troops.
Not just guard - DE tanks - Wave serpants - DE/Eldar flyers - heck even tau tanks make marine tanks look really bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 17:57:42
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I'm not saying the tanks are bad at all, I actually like my. Whirlwind for taking out pesky pathfinders or similar low Armour guys, but that's all it can do really...
But I'll be honest the first things I went out to buy were a Tac squad, a rhino, a ven dread, and a terminator command squad. I didn't really think twice about the tanks. I knew IG were known for their tanks at the time
I'm saying that Marines are able to build a TAC army, that has a 33% chance to win against any other TAC army.
What we're going to run into, is a situation in which we can both present potentials back and forth. I'll take an "unreasonably" optimistic view of something, and I'll say someone is then deliberately picking something to wreck my suggestion, and I'll provide a counter, and we'll wind up countering each other back and forth.
"You" in the whole wide internet sense, not you specifically.
Even in the heyday of 7th, I would play a have-not codex (Guard) into Eldar (Scatterbike, Wraithknight, Warp Spiders). It was never hopeless. It wasn't easy, and I usually lost.
The power disparity is not that bad, between current Marines and any army. So the potential is there.
Vs Guard, you need to use force concentration. It's very difficult, especially if your opponent uses a large amount of Artillery, but not every Guardsman plays a static gunline, and if they do, you just have to survive to cap objectives. If they don't move out of their deployment zone, they aren't going to win. I'd argue that a static gunline is probably the easiest way to beat Guard, but you can't play the kill'em all game, any more than Guard could in 7th. It may not be "fun" but it can be done.
Marines really need to bring a toolbox full of answers. It can be done. If you're reading this and you find you aren't on the constant receiving end of a vicious beating, you're probably taking a little of everything. If you are taking constant beatings, you're likely trying to specialize too much, in the belief that specialization always beats generalization.
"Their transports are slow, have no fire points, and not being able to disembark after moving makes them very reactionary. They also cost so much that it's rarely worth paying their cost to deliver any of the squads Marines can actually put inside of them."
Slow compared to what? Eldar? We're not going to get Eldar speeds for Rhinos, and we shouldn't. Otherwise we have a transport Flyer, which is insanely fast. We also have Drop Pods, which are instant delivery, and you disembark after delivery. Are they too expensive? Many say yes. I say Rhinos and Pods are cheaper than many options in other codexes.
Their damage focused vehicles are punished if they move because they almost exclusively have heavy weapons. This especially hurts attack bikes and landspeeders, as they are designed to be rapidly moving into position with short range heavy weapons like multi-meltas. Their actual tank vehicles also get shut down very easily in close combat.
Same as most factions. Vypers and War Walkers suffer the same penalties for moving when armed with anything other than Shuriken Cannons. Guard Tanks also get shut down easily via close combat. Welcome to 8th ed.
"For their troops, they have to choose between static heavy weapons or short range special weapons to actually start doing damage, but don't have the mobility to get into range with the special weapons, and the heavy weapons are too focused on 1 shot D6 damage to effectively get past enemy invul saves. They also cost too much. "
Moving is only a -1 to hit, and we have easier access to mass re-rolls than anyone else. Buck up and move if you need to. Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Grav Cannons and Plasma Cannons all have multiple shots. The Space Marine armory is larger than any other faction, too. Saying that we're limited to one shot heavy weapons is nonsense.
"Defensively, the more aspects of enemy guns you can ignore, the better you are. Having a 6+ armor save means you ignore a lot of the AP on enemy guns. Having an invul save means you ignore AP. Having FNP means you ignore damage and mortal wounds.
In general, most Marine units don't ignore the damage stats of enemy weapons at all, so when you shoot at them you are getting the full use of your firepower."
If you use basic marines, you bypass the benefits multiple damage weapons.
"This goes for their tanks as well. It isn't a coincidence the best marine vehicle, the Leviathan dreadnought, has a 4++, which flat out ignores any AP over -1. Everything else just dies too easily."
The Leviathan has a 2+ save, and so ignores AP beyond -2. Marines in cover have a 5+ against AP-3. Dark Reapers only have AP -2, and shooting weapons beyond a -3 are pretty rare.
"Because of all this, Marines need to either get significant rules buffs and new abilities, or they need to get much cheaper. Until that happens they aren't going to be able to compete with armies that have wide spread invuls, negatives to hit, FNP, masses of bodies, the fly keyword, smite spam, and high mobility. Right now they aren't actually GOOD at anything, and pay for durability that isn't real. "
Basic Marines can get negatives to hit (Raven Guard), or Fly-Lite (Ultramarines). Their access to massed re-rolls is better than any other army, and their re-rolls come on the most customize-able heroes of any army.
So, marines have 0 problem and are T1, ok thanks for your help, can you stop complaining with your non sense ?
Seriously, drop pod as an advantage ? Because it is mobile ? And were you speaking about the more than 300 pts stormraven ?
Ofc we have good things, but THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE , that's the point
We don't even have chapter tactics on our vehicles !
If the problem is only that they are too expensive, then the poster should have stuck to that in their summary. Instead we have complaining that marine vehicles have negatives to hit with heavy weapons when they move, like every other faction and a claim that marines are limited to only single-shot heavy weapons, which is plainly untrue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: If you're reading this and aren't on the constant receiving end of a vicious beating, you're probably crutching on a few key FW units.
I don't use Forge World.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 22:29:35
If the problem is only that they are too expensive, then the poster should have stuck to that in their summary. Instead we have complaining that marine vehicles have negatives to hit with heavy weapons when they move, like every other faction and a claim that marines are limited to only single-shot heavy weapons, which is plainly untrue.
On the second point I agree, it's not like everything must be a lascannon.
But on the first point, there are two ways of looking at things.
It's true that "outside of context", all vehicles (and all units for that matter) suffer the .1 to hit after moving. The problem is another: how other armies can mitigate this. Special rules are everywhere except on Marine Codices.
Imperial Guard sure has the -1 to hit when moving.... too bad that the Leman Russ chassis, their main battle tank like, akin to a predator, has a rule that enables to fire their main weapon twice without penalties to hit. Dunecrawler Onagers, the Admech "battletank", they can fire on the move with no penalty, Dark Eldars all have Assault Weapons on their flying things, be them transport, heavy support or actual flyers. And they actually have a weapon profile, the Dark Lance that says: "Heavy 1 bla bla bla - change this weapon type from Heavy to Assault if it's equipped on a Vechicle". ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Harlequins same thing, all assault. Craftworld Eldars have more heavy weapons, but they "main battle tank", the Fire Prism, has the same rule as the Leman Russ to shoot twice, thus mitigating on its own the -1 to hit if moving half move. And their harf move is like, 8". T'au and Necrons have the same problem as Marines on their main battle tanks, and Necron not even that if you consider that their tank platform are the destroyers that negate the movement penalty.
That's mostly the problems with marines. They adhere to the rules and have few exceptions. Those costs usually too much for what they bring to the table (Land Raider and StormRaven). Other armies have all extra rules and mitigations built in.
The problem for Marine tanks is that the age when T7/3+ was a good defensive stat line has past. A stripped down Leman Russ is.. 152 points? Whereas a Predator is 180-190?
If on reasonable dice you can kill or cripple Magnus, or a Knight, a Shadowsword etc in a turn - which I'd argue is a reasonable bar for being competitive in tournaments - then you will expect to blow through 2-3 predators. There isn't anything the Marine player can do about it.
The minus 1 to hit on moving is just another negative. -1 in itself isn't awful, but it will quickly stack with another one (or two) due to being outside 12", Eldar generally, the predator having taken some hits etc. Hitting on 5s or 6s is bad. Yes other units have similar problems, but its another nail in an over-costed, under-protected unit. There are many other units which are considered bad for their points.
If the problem is only that they are too expensive, then the poster should have stuck to that in their summary. Instead we have complaining that marine vehicles have negatives to hit with heavy weapons when they move, like every other faction and a claim that marines are limited to only single-shot heavy weapons, which is plainly untrue.
On the second point I agree, it's not like everything must be a lascannon. But on the first point, there are two ways of looking at things. It's true that "outside of context", all vehicles (and all units for that matter) suffer the .1 to hit after moving. The problem is another: how other armies can mitigate this. Special rules are everywhere except on Marine Codices.
Imperial Guard sure has the -1 to hit when moving.... too bad that the Leman Russ chassis, their main battle tank like, akin to a predator, has a rule that enables to fire their main weapon twice without penalties to hit. Dunecrawler Onagers, the Admech "battletank", they can fire on the move with no penalty, Dark Eldars all have Assault Weapons on their flying things, be them transport, heavy support or actual flyers. And they actually have a weapon profile, the Dark Lance that says: "Heavy 1 bla bla bla - change this weapon type from Heavy to Assault if it's equipped on a Vechicle". ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Harlequins same thing, all assault. Craftworld Eldars have more heavy weapons, but they "main battle tank", the Fire Prism, has the same rule as the Leman Russ to shoot twice, thus mitigating on its own the -1 to hit if moving half move. And their harf move is like, 8". T'au and Necrons have the same problem as Marines on their main battle tanks, and Necron not even that if you consider that their tank platform are the destroyers that negate the movement penalty.
That's mostly the problems with marines. They adhere to the rules and have few exceptions. Those costs usually too much for what they bring to the table (Land Raider and StormRaven). Other armies have all extra rules and mitigations built in.
Well yes, it totally depends on what "vehicles" you're willing to look at. Carnifexes suffer a movement penalty, Exocrines get bonuses, and so forth. But if we're really going to have a discussion some recognition of nuance there would be nice. The post I replied to mentioned Land Speeders in particular, for example. The closest analogy to a Land Speeder I can think of is a Vyper, and the Vyper sufferes from the same problem as soon as it takes anything other than a Shuriken Cannon. Now I'm not going to defend to cost of a Land Speeder, because it does seem high, but vehicles not simply ignoring movement penalties isn't exactly a "right" simply because the ability occurs in some sample of other units. And obviously, we have the Land Raider, which actually does ignore movement penalties. So right there we have our own example of a vehicle with a special rule for shooting. We can certainly acknowledge that the price of a Land Raider makes it difficult to field in good conscience, to say the least. But we can't say that our army lack some similar fancy rule.
Armies are different, they should play differently and function differently. I don't expect a Predator to behave like a DE whachimacallit. For that matter I don't expect a Predator to behave like a Leman Russ. And I'm glad they're different. The Predator is plainly more mobile than the Russ, for starters, and that makes sense given the style of the army.
And again, maybe marines have fewer fancy rules, but them re-rolls are epic. I play Tyranids from time to time, and getting re-rolls for them is hard. If you want more accurate predators you can put a Chapter Master and Lt. near them and their damage output jumps way up again. Like I said before, it's like 'Guide' for everybody, if you want it. Or some combination of Tau marker lights, right? But it can just be on all the time without any book keeping. It's what I build my armies around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 23:49:08
Movement - deep strike scions - russes can repossition and still doubleshoot with no negatives - MOVE MOVE MOVE.
Inceptors for days.
Shooting - basically the whole codex is better at shooting that marines for the cost. Compare a whirlwind to a basalisk and try not to laugh.
Actually Marines are best at shooting. We have specific units which are head and shoulder above GEQ.
Assault - ehh - questionable - a catachan brigade with straken with abolsutely murder marines in CC - plus they still outshoot them.
Guard have Bullgymps that is all. Only a fool would build a melee Guard army.
Durability - marines and their associated codexes are the most fragile armies in the game.
Not true they all have tactical dreadnaught armor in cover.
Phychic - Better spells make them superior.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Well yes, it totally depends on what "vehicles" you're willing to look at. Carnifexes suffer a movement penalty, Exocrines get bonuses, and so forth. But if we're really going to have a discussion some recognition of nuance there would be nice. The post I replied to mentioned Land Speeders in particular, for example. The closest analogy to a Land Speeder I can think of is a Vyper, and the Vyper sufferes from the same problem as soon as it takes anything other than a Shuriken Cannon. Now I'm not going to defend to cost of a Land Speeder, because it does seem high, but vehicles not simply ignoring movement penalties isn't exactly a "right" simply because the ability occurs in some sample of other units. And obviously, we have the Land Raider, which actually does ignore movement penalties. So right there we have our own example of a vehicle with a special rule for shooting. We can certainly acknowledge that the price of a Land Raider makes it difficult to field in good conscience, to say the least. But we can't say that our army lack some similar fancy rule.
Armies are different, they should play differently and function differently. I don't expect a Predator to behave like a DE whachimacallit. For that matter I don't expect a Predator to behave like a Leman Russ. And I'm glad they're different. The Predator is plainly more mobile than the Russ, for starters, and that makes sense given the style of the army.
And again, maybe marines have fewer fancy rules, but them re-rolls are epic. I play Tyranids from time to time, and getting re-rolls for them is hard. If you want more accurate predators you can put a Chapter Master and Lt. near them and their damage output jumps way up again. Like I said before, it's like 'Guide' for everybody, if you want it. Or some combination of Tau marker lights, right? But it can just be on all the time without any book keeping. It's what I build my armies around.
In fact I went for the mqin battle tank as a comparison because it's arguably a well defined role in any army. Most of them have PL9. Both speeders and vypers are pretty subpar units for their cost. And vypers can ignore heavy weapons penalties if saim hann, so you have a way to field them without that weakness. It's fine when armies behave differently. it's not when your vehicles are worse than everyone elses. At whatever role you put them in. On what basis you say that the predator is more mobile? The moment it moves, it loses firepower. Leman russ can move without losing firepower. Mobility is not just moving more inches, is doing so without losing effectiveness. A sicarian with its assault main gun is mobile marine firepower, not a predator. As the edition went by, I basically dropped all vehicles except razorbacks.
Without rerolls Marines would be pretty abismal. I say that re rolls are not epic. But actually needed to properly function. They are the reason why the Issodon bomb works, why storm bolters DW with a company master nearby are brutal, and so on. But every time a unit is without rerolls, their effectiveness drops too much. The thing I was pointing out before is that all others battle tanks have built in rules to compensate. Marine equipment relies on external methods. And that's fine as a design standooint, but pricing seems to forget that rerolls are not automaticall there. Also, if you need to keep everything in an aura, you end up being less mobile than otherwise.
No two armies in 40k have a 1:1 win ratio, so that's an unlikely target at the best of times. A 1:2 is a 33% win ratio, and for a TAC vs ANY list out there? 33% is pretty reasonable. Especially if you're running your TAC vs Tourney winning uber list.
Yes, I'd say a well played TAC list can be made to have a chance against any list out there. Might not be great, but it's not impossible, or an insurmountable disadvantage.
The point I'm making is that you can take a have-not codex and play against a have codex, and still have a chance. The beauty of a Marine list is the flexibility. If you complain about Marines being overpriced for Jack-of-all trades minis, you aren't taking advantage of all the trades it's capable of. If you aren't flexible with the marines, and adapt your playstyle to your opponent, you're going to lose.
If you take Dark Eldar (I assume) and don't play them like glass hammers, you're going to lose. If you take Tau and try to play an assault focus, you're going to lose.
Marines aren't a faction with a focus. They can take the tools to defeat anyone, but how you apply those tools, that's where the art comes from. You have paint brushes, paint, hammers and chisels, clay and sculpting tools. If you bring paint brushes and run into a rock, you're cooked. And if you only bring sculpting tools to a blank canvas, it isn't going to work. You have to bring all the tools to the game, so that no matter what you run into, you can make the magic happen. I'd say a competitive marine list NEEDS to be designed with TAC in mind.
A predator can move a more meaningful distance and fire at the BS the Leman Russ starts with. A Leman Russ firing at full speed is really hurting. The Leman Russ is good at it's crawl, the Predator can dart around pretty nicely.
When you say "Battle Tanks", you are specifically overlooking the Land Raider. Being a higher PL doesn't make it not a "battle tank". And it's got machine spirit.
Requiring rerolls to function isn't really a sin. Necrons require ressurection protocalls to function. It's just the way that Space Marine "leading from the front" manifests itself this edition. An alternative if you don't like it is taking Salamanders CT which allows you to decentralize.
When all you can say is what you want the battle is already lost.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
After hearing it a few times and thinking about it, I have to agree. Marines follow the game rules pretty closely while other armies have all kinds of exceptions built in.
No two armies in 40k have a 1:1 win ratio, so that's an unlikely target at the best of times. A 1:2 is a 33% win ratio, and for a TAC vs ANY list out there? 33% is pretty reasonable. Especially if you're running your TAC vs Tourney winning uber list.
No you said a Marine TAC vs. any other TAC list has a 33% chance to win. Don't twist out of that gak.
I'm saying that Marines are able to build a TAC army, that has a 33% chance to win against any other TAC army.
What we're going to run into, is a situation in which we can both present potentials back and forth. I'll take an "unreasonably" optimistic view of something, and I'll say someone is then deliberately picking something to wreck my suggestion, and I'll provide a counter, and we'll wind up countering each other back and forth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 02:18:21
20000+ points
