Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Super dope. Moot point then.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Super dope. Moot point then.

Relatively. While knowing that protecting your guys from forewarning with drop pod is a useful use case scenario, you still have the problem against Eldars on "how do I actually damage the thing I need to damage?" Eldars excels at single target annihilation AND single target protection. A unit of Dark reapers (or shining spear for that matters) can get a -1 to hit with conceal and/or a +1 save with Protect. Ligthing reflexes can get another -1 to whatever unit needs it most. Then, if they are properly screened and Alaitoc, you could even be at another -1 to hit, basically making grav guns from drop impossible to hit the enemy at -4 total.

Deep striking against CWE doesn't often have the intended result....

Deep striking against CWE often does have the intended result. Just not that of the deepstriking player!

CapRichard,
Thanks for the details on both the DS and Dissies.

Martel,
Yeah, 30 Dissie shots seems more "standard" than 40, but I haven't looked more deeply into it. I was probably being too much of a stickler. If the number you had used was "a boatload", it would have gotten the point across. 30+ isn't that different from 40+ in the context it was provided.

Thread in general,
Technical point - good luck Guiding Reapers and Dooming Marines that just deep struck, even if you *could* shoot them coming out of the pod.

More generally though, wasn't the point to show that the mathhammer was misleading? So aren't all these followups/pileons just proving the point? There are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, Darn lies, and Mathhammer. You can make it say anything.

Showing Tacs > Reapers are like when I showed a math teacher that 1 = 0 in highschool. You aren't actually arguing that premise. You're arguing that an assumption is wrong. In my case, that the area under a point couldn't be exactly 0 (learned the true meaning of infintesimal that day). Insectum's is that the mathhammer can be very misleading. I doubt anyone involved truly believes Tacs > Reapers any more than anyone believed 1 = 0.

It's dishonesty that is easily seen when Insectum uses THIS as his example. It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing.

It's like me saying my Shootas are better at shooting than my Sluggas. They have their own jobs. Insectum is putting a pig in a cow pen and saying "where is the fething milk?" No wonder he is having problems. On top of that he is paying 85 points for a drop pod.

The economies of scale favor the Dark Reapers once that is taken into consideration. If Insectum has issues with Mathhammer, then he can use simple logic to solve them on a case by case basis.

That is interesting for the drop pod - can not be intercepted. Though - I think it's a poor ruling there. Now they can use that as justification to keep the thing so expensive.

 Quickjager wrote:
It's dishonesty that is easily seen when Insectum uses THIS as his example. It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing.

It's like me saying my Shootas are better at shooting than my Sluggas. They have their own jobs. Insectum is putting a pig in a cow pen and saying "where is the fething milk?" No wonder he is having problems. On top of that he is paying 85 points for a drop pod.

The economies of scale favor the Dark Reapers once that is taken into consideration. If Insectum has issues with Mathhammer, then he can use simple logic to solve them on a case by case basis.

You completely missed the point. Completely and utterly.

Conversely, you got the point, but aren't seeing it through. "It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing."

The common Mathhammer is some number of Tacs with no specials/heavies against Guard. But that's not a squad that is ever bought. Nor is it necessary in the design space that Tacs be point-for-point efficient at killing Guard. The "vs." model of mathhammer is very, very flawed.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Super dope. Moot point then.

Also - it's really not moot - it just means they can't intercept you - there is no situation where you are striking first with drop pod tactical against dark reapers. They can deep strike too - for 1 cp instead of 85 points - a clear win for the reapers. They can also move and shoot with no penalty - so they can just start on the table behind a wall and you can't shoot them. For 1 CP they can Fire and fade every turn to prevent being shot at.

Drop pods are only good now for getting units that can't really advance fast any other way on the board. Eg, Dreads. And that means taking Forge World Drop Pod...

Primaris marines piss me off as a chaos player... mainly because Deathguard doesn't have many multi-damage options with high damage output outside of a 9" range. Intercessors consistently impress me.

There are plenty of situations where Marines can get the drop on Reapers.

Reapers can only DS for 1 CP if CWE isn't DSing anything else. Which seems unlikely. If they DS 1 other unit, they can DS 1 unit of reapers for 2 more CP. 2 other units and they can't DS their Reapers.

Pods and Tacs can sit in reserves until turn 2. Reapers can, too, but the longer they sit in reserves trying to wait out a Pod and it's Tacs the better for the Marine player - that podded Tac squad is cheaper, even paying for the pod.

Reapers hiding in a vehicle can have their vehicle blown up. Sure, a Serpent is about twice as hard to blow up as a Rhino. But if killing a pair of Rhinos to get at their guts is so easy, why is killing a single Serpent so hard?

Saturation. Some players bring 2+ units of Reapers.

Points efficiency. Cheapest transport is more than two Rhinos, or about the same cost as a 10-man Tac squad. Hiding every threat inside a Serpent means not having many threats.

Target saturation. Same points of Reapers can give you 2 podding Tac squads. Not fully kitted 10mans, but enough to do real damage to reapers from either squad. You'll still probably lose, but one of thsoe two squads will get to strike first.

Sure, CWE have a lot of tools to keep you from DSing on the reapers. You probably won't do that successfuly. But to say there is no situation where the Marines strike first is very clearly wrong.

It's still beside the point, because nobody here is saying Marines are actually better than Reapers.

CapRichard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Super dope. Moot point then.

Relatively. While knowing that protecting your guys from forewarning with drop pod is a useful use case scenario, you still have the problem against Eldars on "how do I actually damage the thing I need to damage?" Eldars excels at single target annihilation AND single target protection. A unit of Dark reapers (or shining spear for that matters) can get a -1 to hit with conceal and/or a +1 save with Protect. Ligthing reflexes can get another -1 to whatever unit needs it most. Then, if they are properly screened and Alaitoc, you could even be at another -1 to hit, basically making grav guns from drop impossible to hit the enemy at -4 total.

Deep striking against CWE doesn't often have the intended result....

Heh, the Signum guy will still hit on 6's at a -4.

Otherwise sure, I get all that. But if the Eldar player is going to put all that effort into buffing a single squad, it might just be more beneficial to go kill something else instead. The Reapers top out at killing a full squad of marines, all pumped up. I can be okay with that if I'm doing ample damage in return. I bring 70+ marines in my armies for a reason. I win games but my casualties are usually horrendous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Super dope. Moot point then.

Also - it's really not moot - it just means they can't intercept you - there is no situation where you are striking first with drop pod tactical against dark reapers. They can deep strike too - for 1 cp instead of 85 points - a clear win for the reapers. They can also move and shoot with no penalty - so they can just start on the table behind a wall and you can't shoot them. For 1 CP they can Fire and fade every turn to prevent being shot at.

A full Devastator squad armed with Grav Cannons in a Drop Pod is still less expensive than a 10 man Squad of Reapers.

 Corennus wrote:
Drop pods are only good now for getting units that can't really advance fast any other way on the board. Eg, Dreads. And that means taking Forge World Drop Pod...

That Forge World Droppod is actually much better than GW Droppod. And being cheaper. But that is the only Droppod I would ever consider given the current marine status.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
It's dishonesty that is easily seen when Insectum uses THIS as his example. It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing.

It's like me saying my Shootas are better at shooting than my Sluggas. They have their own jobs. Insectum is putting a pig in a cow pen and saying "where is the fething milk?" No wonder he is having problems. On top of that he is paying 85 points for a drop pod.

The economies of scale favor the Dark Reapers once that is taken into consideration. If Insectum has issues with Mathhammer, then he can use simple logic to solve them on a case by case basis.

You completely missed the point. Completely and utterly.

Conversely, you got the point, but aren't seeing it through. "It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing."

The common Mathhammer is some number of Tacs with no specials/heavies against Guard. But that's not a squad that is ever bought. Nor is it necessary in the design space that Tacs be point-for-point efficient at killing Guard. The "vs." model of mathhammer is very, very flawed.

Mathhammer is fine when you apply it correctly which is why I said if you have a problem with, walk the offender through why it is an issue the way they did it. If you use a simple application of logic mathhammer becomes a valuable tool.

Melee of a Leman Russ vs. Tau Fire warrior will show that one of them is better, but realistically no one cares who is because the game should never get to the point where those two are in melee with each other.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is interesting for the drop pod - can not be intercepted. Though - I think it's a poor ruling there. Now they can use that as justification to keep the thing so expensive.

The drop po can be intercepted. The drop pod, not the unit inside. I don't actually think it's poor ruling, it's pretty deliberate considering how deep striking works in this edition and how action sequencing works. The thing that deep strikes is the transport, thus you can shoot at it. Then the unit disembarks. This works also for the FW underground drill and similar modes.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Otherwise sure, I get all that. But if the Eldar player is going to put all that effort into buffing a single squad, it might just be more beneficial to go kill something else instead. The Reapers top out at killing a full squad of marines, all pumped up. I can be okay with that if I'm doing ample damage in return. I bring 70+ marines in my armies for a reason. I win games but my casualties are usually horrendous.

Thing is, I was using the Dark Reapers because we were talking about them, but they can pratically always super protect their most important units for their particular engagement. If they can't it's because they'r rolling poorly or have no clue what to do with their army honestly. I think I will try the all bodies approach sometimes in the future and see how it goes here....

 Quickjager wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
It's dishonesty that is easily seen when Insectum uses THIS as his example. It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing.

It's like me saying my Shootas are better at shooting than my Sluggas. They have their own jobs. Insectum is putting a pig in a cow pen and saying "where is the fething milk?" No wonder he is having problems. On top of that he is paying 85 points for a drop pod.

The economies of scale favor the Dark Reapers once that is taken into consideration. If Insectum has issues with Mathhammer, then he can use simple logic to solve them on a case by case basis.

You completely missed the point. Completely and utterly.

Conversely, you got the point, but aren't seeing it through. "It is like me taking a SM Dev. Squad giving them nothing, then saying stock fire dragons are better at tank killing."

The common Mathhammer is some number of Tacs with no specials/heavies against Guard. But that's not a squad that is ever bought. Nor is it necessary in the design space that Tacs be point-for-point efficient at killing Guard. The "vs." model of mathhammer is very, very flawed.

Mathhammer is fine when you apply it correctly which is why I said if you have a problem with, walk the offender through why it is an issue the way they did it. If you use a simple application of logic mathhammer becomes a valuable tool.

Melee of a Leman Russ vs. Tau Fire warrior will show that one of them is better, but realistically no one cares who is because the game should never get to the point where those two are in melee with each other.

Well then you're basically in complete agreement with me. I didn't say "all mathammer bad" I said "question your model, because I can use the same model to "prove" that tacticals are better than Dark Reapers." The naked Guard squad vs. the naked Marine squad model is a bad model when determining "balance".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CapRichard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is interesting for the drop pod - can not be intercepted. Though - I think it's a poor ruling there. Now they can use that as justification to keep the thing so expensive.

The drop po can be intercepted. The drop pod, not the unit inside. I don't actually think it's poor ruling, it's pretty deliberate considering how deep striking works in this edition and how action sequencing works. The thing that deep strikes is the transport, thus you can shoot at it. Then the unit disembarks. This works also for the FW underground drill and similar modes.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Otherwise sure, I get all that. But if the Eldar player is going to put all that effort into buffing a single squad, it might just be more beneficial to go kill something else instead. The Reapers top out at killing a full squad of marines, all pumped up. I can be okay with that if I'm doing ample damage in return. I bring 70+ marines in my armies for a reason. I win games but my casualties are usually horrendous.

Thing is, I was using the Dark Reapers because we were talking about them, but they can pratically always super protect their most important units for their particular engagement. If they can't it's because they'r rolling poorly or have no clue what to do with their army honestly. I think I will try the all bodies approach sometimes in the future and see how it goes here....

But they can't protect everyone to that magnitude all the time, they gotta pick and choose. Then I get to react to the choice with my own choices. That's all.

Curious to hear how it goes with the "bodies" approach. Disclaimer, when I started it it took me six months to win a game (although this was back in 6th Ed.), so. . .just prepare for a lot of dead marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
How often does the other crowd see 40+ disintegrator shots?

Two Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons and Cherub open up with 40 S5 AP-3 D3damage(usually) shots. Which is basically the equivalent of a Disinegrator, iirc.

CapRichard wrote:


Thing is, I was using the Dark Reapers because we were talking about them, but they can pratically always super protect their most important units for their particular engagement. If they can't it's because they'r rolling poorly or have no clue what to do with their army honestly. I think I will try the all bodies approach sometimes in the future and see how it goes here....

As someone who plays Chaos Space Marines and Eldar, I can attest that the best way to fight Eldar is force them to fight on all fronts. As everyone has noted, Eldar can make a single unit incredibly hard to kill (by staking defensive buffs), and they are very capable of eliminating and destroying a single unit on the enemy side (Linked Fire / Doom, etc). Where Eldar start to falter is when they are overloaded. Eldar are at their best when there is a single enemy lynchpin target that is threatening them, and the Eldar themselves have a single linchpin target that the enemy is trying to destroy. When the scope of the battle extends to an entire battle line or even an entire flank, where the destruction of a single enemy unit will not stop them, and the salvation of a single Eldar unit will not stop catastrophic losses elsewhere, the Eldar begin to falter.

All of my best games against Eldar have typically involve a hyper aggressive play style, where the entire army commits to a close range - melee fire fight by turn two. I recently had a narrow loss against Eldar where I was able to break the back of his army, I still lost because I had terrible luck with objective cards, and was placed in a position where in order to claim a backfield objective (my own back field), I would have had to forgo the hammer fall, so I committed to the assault, and the Eldar player kept drawing objectives that were easy for him to score, and I couldn't do the same despite controlling the board by turn 4... Don't get me wrong, Eldar have the upper hand vs MEQ armies, but they are not unbeatable. I think Drop Pods in general are a gem against Eldar, as they mitigate the power of the forewarned stratagem and Eldar tend to be a bit more spread out since they do not have access to 4 point per model screens, making it easier to deep strike against them compared to Imperial or Chaos Soup. Eldar often rely on Forewarned to deny Deep Strikers an opportunity to attack.


But on topic, the only thing Marines are good at right now is force concentration. they can fit a larger number of points into a smaller areas. Marines tend to be outperformed on an army vs army scale, but if they can get into a situation where 75% of their army is fighting against 50% of the opposing army, they can often come out ahead. Whether or not Marines do this better than Eldar or Drukhari is another question entirely.

My best games as CWE are where I can take most of my army against a third of theirs at a time. My worst are when they can take all of their army against all of mine at once.

Easier said than done, though.

 akaean wrote:

But on topic, the only thing Marines are good at right now is force concentration. they can fit a larger number of points into a smaller areas. Marines tend to be outperformed on an army vs army scale, but if they can get into a situation where 75% of their army is fighting against 50% of the opposing army, they can often come out ahead. Whether or not Marines do this better than Eldar or Drukhari is another question entirely.

That's because they are overcosted
Joking aside, that's why I like the "Issodon Bomb". And I even reinforce it with more elements, like Storm"whatever" flying high and stopping just above Lias head for the single turn of focus fire. And I would argue now that DW can do it better with their SIA veterans and primaris and deepstriek stratagem. Too bad for beta deep striking rules...

Problem is, until points are a bit out of whack when used to compare actual firepower, some armies can cram more of it in the same space for less points, thus invalidating a bit this point. In general though it's a valid strategy to use with every army, not just with Marines. They used to have free Drop pods to do this all day long with everything, but now.... eh.

CapRichard wrote:

 akaean wrote:

But on topic, the only thing Marines are good at right now is force concentration. they can fit a larger number of points into a smaller areas. Marines tend to be outperformed on an army vs army scale, but if they can get into a situation where 75% of their army is fighting against 50% of the opposing army, they can often come out ahead. Whether or not Marines do this better than Eldar or Drukhari is another question entirely.

That's because they are overcosted
Joking aside, that's why I like the "Issodon Bomb". And I even reinforce it with more elements, like Storm"whatever" flying high and stopping just above Lias head for the single turn of focus fire. And I would argue now that DW can do it better with their SIA veterans and primaris and deepstriek stratagem. Too bad for beta deep striking rules...

Problem is, until points are a bit out of whack when used to compare actual firepower, some armies can cram more of it in the same space for less points, thus invalidating a bit this point. In general though it's a valid strategy to use with every army, not just with Marines. They used to have free Drop pods to do this all day long with everything, but now.... eh.

I'm finding that the only thing making the Lias bomb work at the moment is having an Ancient with the relic Banner. Otherwise the whole thing is a pointless exercise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm finding that the only thing making the Lias bomb work at the moment is having an Ancient with the relic Banner. Otherwise the whole thing is a pointless exercise.

When deep striking not in my experience. I can usually kill and neuter the part of the board where I ambush, so retaliation is manageable.But different areas, different metas, YMMV on this.

A fact is true though, the Banner is one of those abilities that really benefits elite armies as a concept. Considering the fluff, I would have actually given the banner ability to the Primaris Marines, to symbolize their Belisarius Furnace, the last jolt of energy right when dying, instead of the second wound. Or in addition to the second wound arguably. And The Banner should do the +1 attack, overwatch on 5s, immune to morale, an extra bolter shot at double tap range.... that kind of stuff.

CapRichard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm finding that the only thing making the Lias bomb work at the moment is having an Ancient with the relic Banner. Otherwise the whole thing is a pointless exercise.

When deep striking not in my experience. I can usually kill and neuter the part of the board where I ambush, so retaliation is manageable.But different areas, different metas, YMMV on this.

A fact is true though, the Banner is one of those abilities that really benefits elite armies as a concept. Considering the fluff, I would have actually given the banner ability to the Primaris Marines, to symbolize their Belisarius Furnace, the last jolt of energy right when dying, instead of the second wound. Or in addition to the second wound arguably. And The Banner should do the +1 attack, overwatch on 5s, immune to morale, an extra bolter shot at double tap range.... that kind of stuff.

Everything is gonna die. Might as well make it a less painful death for you. Create as few drops as possible and infiltrate the Banner dude. Deep Strike Lias and friends and have fun doing what Deathwatch do better.

MAN could you imagine how bonkers Deathwatch would be if they had Ancients as an option?

I am juuuust finishing up my Ancient now, actually. It's been on the high priority list for a long time.

You know, the original point of the thread was to ask how to make the best use of the Marines that I already own without buying a whole different army. Not to see how far down the salt mine we can go.

Marines in cover can outlast guardsmen against AP 0 weapons I think. Marines have access to -1 to be hit, while guardsmen don't. Guardsmen are better for everything else, I think.

Admech don't have transports, or the raw point efficiency of guardsmen. They do, however have 4+ armor, fancy guns, and 6++. Again, marines are probably tougher in cover, but admech DOES have a -1 to be hit tactic. Admech don't get plasma on their troops like marines, but other than that, I'd rather have a skitarri.

I think GW thinks marines are good in CC, which would explain a lot. But they are not. They are awful.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines in cover can outlast guardsmen against AP 0 weapons I think. Marines have access to -1 to be hit, while guardsmen don't. Guardsmen are better for everything else, I think.

Admech don't have transports, or the raw point efficiency of guardsmen. They do, however have 4+ armor, fancy guns, and 6++. Again, marines are probably tougher in cover, but admech DOES have a -1 to be hit tactic. Admech don't get plasma on their troops like marines, but other than that, I'd rather have a skitarri.

I think GW thinks marines are good in CC, which would explain a lot. But they are not. They are awful.

AdMech gets access to the Termite Drill. There's a free PDF on the FW site. Take a peak. If you had an idea for a Drop Pod but didn't want to spend the points on the Drop Pod, the Termite is only 50 more points for what is effectively a MUCH better model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also AdMech DOES have Plasma troops.

The Newman wrote:
You know, the original point of the thread was to ask how to make the best use of the Marines that I already own without buying a whole different army. Not to see how far down the salt mine we can go.

Welcome to Dakka.

@ Newman:

Has any of the semi-positivity hooked you at all? Is there anything you're interested in doing with Marines, after filtering the salt?

The Newman wrote:
You know, the original point of the thread was to ask how to make the best use of the Marines that I already own without buying a whole different army. Not to see how far down the salt mine we can go.

But whining on the internet is our favorite past time, who are you to take that away from us. You need a lot of salt to make a good margarita after all!

Seriously though, in truth for most games marines aren't *that* bad. When you start going up in levels of play and talking about tournament and especially grand tournament winners- minor differences in balance get highly exaggerated and armies which cannot compete at that high level are called trash. Dakka will always focus more heavily on that competitive environment, because deep down inside we all fancy ourselves good players- whether that is true or not! We focus on what will compete at tournaments and discuss everything through that lens. It also means that minor differences in balance become highly exaggerated, and units and players are discussed as if they are making calculated decisions with optimal armies in a tournament setting. This funnels into the other problem people have with Marines. They *can* compete at the higher levels of play with certain builds- but those builds don't represent what people *want* marines to be. As a community, Warhammer 40K players have a very romanticized view of marines and at a primal level we want them to be tough elite warriors each an army in themselves. It feels disengenuous to most people that the competitive builds involve a Guilliman Parking lot, or dirty tricks like infiltrating Raven Guard Aggressors (which isn't a tournament winning build even). People want the iconic Warhammer 40K models, the tactical space marine and the terminator- to be good. The fact that competitive space marine lists contain almost no power armor, makes many players feel disillusioned with the army as a whole.

Taking a step back from it all, 8th edition is still the best 40K has been balanced in quite some time. Are Eldar stronger than Marines? slightly, but not to the degree that you couldn't go to a casual game and beat Eldar with Marines. (honestly, 99% of games played fall into this category). We aren't nearly as competitive as we make it sound. You can build a solid list with space marines that looks close to what your ideal is. You'll probably never be able to get a large number of power armor bodies to perform at a GT, but it could very well be strong enough to win even up to local tournaments- depending on the other fish in your pond. 99% of levels of play understanding what units are capable of, what units support eachother, and how to use them to accomplish goals are the skills which win games. Min maxed soup lists with absolutely 0 fat are what you need to compete on a national level. But if you play 40K for fun with your buddies or locally and don't have plans to travel to Las Vegas or England for 40K , you can do just fine with Marines.

 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Newman:

Has any of the semi-positivity hooked you at all? Is there anything you're interested in doing with Marines, after filtering the salt?

Well, Death Watch has some promise.

I like Primaris a heck of a lot better being able to mix Hellblasters and Reivers and whatnot into the Intercessor squads. The Raven Guard chapter trait is also pretty darn good. I like that I can make up for DW's relatively limited heavy weapon selections (and utilize models that DW can't field) with vanilla marines without it looking too inconsistent, and that role intersects well with the Raven Guard trait.

Ancients are good. Devastators are good. Centurion Devestators are better that I expected, that's a lot of dakka in a small space. My local group plays 1000 points most of the time, so I've got the goofy idea to try 5 full-sized scout squads with sniper rifles, a missile launcher or Heavy Bolter, and a combi-flamer sergeant each, led by a couple of Lieutenants, try to snipe out all the buffing characters/psychers before they get to do their thing.

I'm still working on it.

Right on. Unfortunately, I don't know DW, and I focus on Sallies, so I don't have much to offer at this point good luck with your games!