Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Reemule wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag has a point though.

Chess clocks exist to stop the 5% of players who deliberately slowplay.

Now, those players will instead slowplay their opponent by forcing their opponent to look up every single rule they question (e.g. *counting out dice for combat* "Daemonettes get +1 attack for every 5 models in the unit" "Hey that's not true!" *hands over codex and flips clock*)

And then you pause clock, call the judge, he makes a ruling, game goes on.

So your both wrong?

Go ahead, pause the clock, round still ends on time.

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Naw dude, he is saying you answer every point with well I wanna win my way, and I don't care about the rule, the guidlines, or the event organizers.

You have demonstrated you are That Guy. Cool. Move along. This thread is clear, its not for the Faint Hearted.

Of course this entire post is ridiculous. You can scream chess clocks are great as loud as you can, but it doesn't change that there are fundamental flaws in them, and those will become apparent once they're seeing use.

My personal preference to the solution would be to require that games go to turn 4, max it at turn 5, and implement clocks for deployment.

Actually no. Your wrong again.

Your acting like this is a new wheel, and its all new territory.

Its not. Several games use Clocks. All the little worries, and fears about Slow play, horde armies, making civility go, have already been answered. It was found to be unfounded.

And to be preemptive, 40K isn't different, special, harder, use more models, have different expectations, or any of that.

And for the final point, you don't have to go to an event using them. If you don't think you can play the game as laid out, in the guidelines of the tourney organizer, DON"T GO. just that simple. Your not owned the experience of going.

If you can’t play your list within the time constraints, even with concerted effort and practice playing efficiently, you might want to use a dice app. Most of those lists throw enough dice that using the app will significantly speed up your army.

Chess clocks have the opportunity to introduce more issues than they solve in my experience. 40k is fundamentally not a game designed around time, time limits are imposed by the requirements of an event, not something actually inherent to the game. Armies and factions rather naturally have different sizes and play at different speeds and forcing time into a box with clocks takes no account of that fact (yeah, Warmahordes uses chess clocks in competitive play, its also a game tailor designed around a competitive paradigm and you're not getting armies with 7 models on one side fighting 200 on the other). Yes, slow play happens, but chess clocks open lots of doors to perceived slights/intentional gimmickry/forgotten passbacks/equipment failure/army bias/etc that all open up much more room for drama.

Chess clocks can shift the gimmickry, but arent going to eliminate it, if there are consistent issues with games finishing, lower the points level or expand the time available for games. If people cant get 1850 or 2000pt games done in 150 minutes, play 1500 for the next event or allot 3 hours for play, and have the TO's pay attention to tables getting long on time and issue warnings where appropriate.

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Naw dude, he is saying you answer every point with well I wanna win my way, and I don't care about the rule, the guidlines, or the event organizers.

You have demonstrated you are That Guy. Cool. Move along. This thread is clear, its not for the Faint Hearted.

Of course this entire post is ridiculous. You can scream chess clocks are great as loud as you can, but it doesn't change that there are fundamental flaws in them, and those will become apparent once they're seeing use.

My personal preference to the solution would be to require that games go to turn 4, max it at turn 5, and implement clocks for deployment.

Actually no. Your wrong again.

Your acting like this is a new wheel, and its all new territory.

Its not. Several games use Clocks. All the little worries, and fears about Slow play, horde armies, making civility go, have already been answered. It was found to be unfounded.

And to be preemptive, 40K isn't different, special, harder, use more models, have different expectations, or any of that.

And for the final point, you don't have to go to an event using them. If you don't think you can play the game as laid out, in the guidelines of the tourney organizer, DON"T GO. just that simple. Your not owned the experience of going.

And this is why I said it's pointless to argue. Chess clocks are PROVEN to work but to Marmatag 40k is somehow an exception to the rule. There's no mental hoop he won't jump through to claim they won't work.

Apparently "not for the faint of heart" means that the original poster is entitled to be a jerk in all subsequent posts. I think this is a good example of how chess clocks break down.

You probably see yourself as a super nice guy in real life. But look at what's going on here, there is no contract between us that says you should be civil, so you're not.

Just like in a game with chess clocks, there is no contract, so why play in a manner that enables your opponent to play faster? If I *must* force you to spend your time to win, I will. Think about blitz chess. This is akin to repeatedly checking your opponent when you cannot win, because they're behind on time, and the logistics of moving a piece will run them out of time. Yeah, you have mate in 2 moves, i lost the game, but i can force you to burn time and lose.

I do find it funny that you point out "fears of horde armies."

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army.

Aware of the time limit, you still brought a force your un-equipped to play, then your going to get angry and blame your opponent and treat them poorly?

Classy...

Making assumptions, super classy.

I know how to play my army.

I am not angry.

Why should i enable my opponent to play faster when it directly hurts my chances to win?

By this statement - you quite literally are willing to use any possible advantage to win. You probably slow play too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army.

Aware of the time limit, you still brought a force your un-equipped to play, then your going to get angry and blame your opponent and treat them poorly?

Classy...

Making assumptions, super classy.

I know how to play my army.

I am not angry.

Why should i enable my opponent to play faster when it directly hurts my chances to win?

By this statement - you quite literally are willing to use any possible advantage to win. You probably slow play too.

I don't slow play.

How is this any different than repeatedly putting someone in check in chess when you can't win? You're going to lose but you can force someone to burn time, running them out and therefore winning. This is a real strategy in blitz chess.

Clocks add a new layer to the game. You're in denial if you think they won't in 40k.

Maybe i'll charge a throwaway unit into one of your squads with high attacks. You can either roll the dice or let me decide the outcome (your only two options), and my throwaway squad might just take out your strong squad for time purposes.

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army.

"I'm mad that people now have a tool to stop my slow play so I'm going to act like a child to attempt to prove a point". I'm just glad a TO will get called over for your actions in every tournament with clocks that you attend and players like you will slowly be banned from every major GT. Look at clocks already taking out the trash

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army.

Aware of the time limit, you still brought a force your un-equipped to play, then your going to get angry and blame your opponent and treat them poorly?

Classy...

Making assumptions, super classy.

I know how to play my army.

I am not angry.

Why should i enable my opponent to play faster when it directly hurts my chances to win?

By this statement - you quite literally are willing to use any possible advantage to win. You probably slow play too.

I don't slow play.

How is this any different than repeatedly putting someone in check in chess when you can't win? You're going to lose but you can force someone to burn time, running them out and therefore winning. This is a real strategy in blitz chess.

Clocks add a new layer to the game. You're in denial if you think they won't in 40k.

Maybe i'll charge a throwaway unit into one of your squads with high attacks. You can either roll the dice or let me decide the outcome (your only two options), and my throwaway squad might just take out your strong squad for time purposes.

The rule to forego rolling dice is designed for when you jave 40 seconds on the clock and you're a guardsman fighting Guilliman. Where are you getting this untouched throwaway unit and squad with high attacks when there are literally only a few minutes left on the clock?

Goddammit I didn't take my own advice.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army.

Aware of the time limit, you still brought a force your un-equipped to play, then your going to get angry and blame your opponent and treat them poorly?

Classy...

Making assumptions, super classy.

I know how to play my army.

I am not angry.

Why should i enable my opponent to play faster when it directly hurts my chances to win?

By this statement - you quite literally are willing to use any possible advantage to win. You probably slow play too.

He 100% slow plays or he wouldn't be so upset and trying to think of every conceivable way to slow play despite the clock. What he's really mad at is the clock now makes it blatantly obvious that he's attempting to slow play so people can now get a TO involved before the games all but over.

Well moving past all the arguments... I am not a competitive 40k player but I have played Warmachine extensively competitively with chess clocks... and while it is true you wont end up with 5 models vs 200 in War machine, I have definitely played my 50+ model horde list against double colossal lists with I believe 8 models... and since WM has templates/individual attack/facing positioning is so much more important that each extra model you need to move does add proportionally more time required so I feel it's comparable.

All the same criticisms came up prior to the chess clocks but in practice I almost never ran into people abusing it... and the ones that did the TOs shut it down very quickly...

The trick to playing the horde army? I would practice unpacking and moving my guys from my deployment zones, used the chess clock every game even on casual ones (I wouldn't enforce it from my opponent in casual but I would use it to get an idea of how much time I was using).... There are tons of ways to make it work... you just need to play smart and practice...

Then only when I could consistently complete games in my 50% of the time allotted would I bring my horde list to a serious tournament...and it was never an issue... and when I played warmachine back in the day it was a deathclock... so you ran out of time you just lost... no matter what the state was...

And as for comments about shifting the clock, when people ask stuff... If people are asking me questions about my models on my turn, I would answer the best I can while doing my turn... If It was becoming disruptive I would ask them to hold off till there turn or ship the clock over... Same thing for dice rolling or anything...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't wait for chess clocks to destroy good faith gameplay.

When someone asks me the range of my weapons or any specific rule to my army, i'm just going to silently hand them my codex. Burn your time.

Want a friendly game? Don't put me behind the 8-ball as i play a "horde" army.

Aware of the time limit, you still brought a force your un-equipped to play, then your going to get angry and blame your opponent and treat them poorly?

Classy...

Making assumptions, super classy.

I know how to play my army.

I am not angry.

Why should i enable my opponent to play faster when it directly hurts my chances to win?

By this statement - you quite literally are willing to use any possible advantage to win. You probably slow play too.

I don't slow play.

How is this any different than repeatedly putting someone in check in chess when you can't win? You're going to lose but you can force someone to burn time, running them out and therefore winning. This is a real strategy in blitz chess.

Clocks add a new layer to the game. You're in denial if you think they won't in 40k.

Maybe i'll charge a throwaway unit into one of your squads with high attacks. You can either roll the dice or let me decide the outcome (your only two options), and my throwaway squad might just take out your strong squad for time purposes.

I am always amused by these arguments against chess clocks.
"I will become 'that guy' just to prove to you chess clocks are a bad idea".

All your doing is showing other people that your 'that guy'. We will bear it during the game and afterwards the rest of the field is happy chatting at the bar and your standing there being ignored because no one wants to hang out with 'that guy'.
If winning is that important to you, congratulation.

I see chess clocks as less of a tool to get rid of TFG, and more of a tool to nudge players to get their games past turn 3.

 Ordana wrote:
I am always amused by these arguments against chess clocks.
"I will become 'that guy' just to prove to you chess clocks are a bad idea".

All your doing is showing other people that your 'that guy'. We will bear it during the game and afterwards the rest of the field is happy chatting at the bar and your standing there being ignored because no one wants to hang out with 'that guy'.
If winning is that important to you, congratulation.

If you think that people in tournaments would not abuse the clock system if it allowed them to win you're deluded.

meleti wrote:
I see chess clocks as less of a tool to get rid of TFG, and more of a tool to nudge players to get their games past turn 3.

I agree, That guy will always be That guy. Clocks makes it harder and more obvious to be That guy and people play faster with a clock being a silent reminder of the time left in the game.
Most people don't intent to slow play. They just play most of their games in a casual environment where there is no time limit to worry about.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I am always amused by these arguments against chess clocks.
"I will become 'that guy' just to prove to you chess clocks are a bad idea".

All your doing is showing other people that your 'that guy'. We will bear it during the game and afterwards the rest of the field is happy chatting at the bar and your standing there being ignored because no one wants to hang out with 'that guy'.
If winning is that important to you, congratulation.

If you think that people in tournaments would not abuse the clock system if it allowed them to win you're deluded.

Ofcourse people will. That guy will always be That guy. But trying to abuse the clock tends to be a lot more obvious then other means.

But every time this discussion comes up people who pretend to be friendly gamers start bringing up how they will try to abuse every means possible just because there is a clock present.
As if its the clock fault that they turn into 'That guy', rather then their own personality being the problem.
Most people can play with a clock and still play a nice and friendly game. Even at high levels in a tournament.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Marmatag has a point though.

Chess clocks exist to stop the 5% of players who deliberately slowplay.

Now, those players will instead slowplay their opponent by forcing their opponent to look up every single rule they question (e.g. *counting out dice for combat* "Daemonettes get +1 attack for every 5 models in the unit" "Hey that's not true!" *hands over codex and flips clock*)

And then you pause clock, call the judge, he makes a ruling, game goes on.

So your both wrong?

And then that happens every ten minutes while you wait around for 5 waiting for a judge, the game ends before both players have used up all their time (because it's a tournament, and the round still has to end in 2.5 hours whether or not both player's clocks are empty) and then we're back where we were: games not finishing on time.

Sounds ideal, sound plan, 10/10 implementation.

Then any judge worth their salt will tell them to knock it the feth off and kick them out.

Why do people think they can get away with stuff like this in 40k? No wait, I can answer my own question looking at the Forgeworld thread, as people lack the balls to tell someone "no" in trying to play something they have no rules for and are "Honest guv. They're it's rules. Really." then what hope do we have for kicking someone out of a tournament for being a bellend?

 Crimson wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I am always amused by these arguments against chess clocks.
"I will become 'that guy' just to prove to you chess clocks are a bad idea".

All your doing is showing other people that your 'that guy'. We will bear it during the game and afterwards the rest of the field is happy chatting at the bar and your standing there being ignored because no one wants to hang out with 'that guy'.
If winning is that important to you, congratulation.

If you think that people in tournaments would not abuse the clock system if it allowed them to win you're deluded.

TFG will always attempt to be TFG (as demonstrated perfectly in this thread). With the clock, the difference is it makes it blatantly obvious that someone is being TFG so you can get a TO involved immediately. With no clock, you just have a "feeling" they are playing slow. As shown in previous posts slow playing this system requires you to be incredibly blatant and upfront that you are attempting to game the system.

I don't know. I see them as a tool that can be used by TFG just as well as against them.

It adds another thing that players can game to a game where some players try to game everything they can.

I've yet to see it in practice and hate to assume the worst in people but I've already listened to at least two pod casts where a host was gloating about not reminding their opponent to switch back the clock to their time or giggling about other ways they can game the system to screw their opponent.

I mean just the simple logistics of having to switch it back and forth that many times in a game (my shooting, your saves, my casting, your denies [who eats the clock while we measure if someone is in deny range], your strats...) it would be easy to forget to switch a clock easily in that chaos (especially for 90% of players who don't play 4-5 games a week).

Even though this will only be implemented day 2 when most of the competitive people have been separated from the novices I'm curious to see how many (if any) mistakes are made and what problems pop up. I personally wouldn't attend a tourney with chess clocks until this beta stage is over.

I'm still a proponent of 3 hour matches assumed to complete turn 4. More than 1 game that doesn't complete and you get a point penalty guaranteed to keep you out of the top tables. I'm willing to give it a try but there are going to be people out there who get their tournament ruined by something as simple as forgetting to click a button and that seems a bit harsh to me.

And could you guys tone it down with the personal insults? Just because someone doesn't think this is a good idea doesn't make them the spawn of Satan...

You need to do better than calling people "That Guy" for playing within the confines of a system that encourages certain abuses.

You can burn time in Blitz Chess by just putting your opponent in check repeatedly. It's a viable strategy and no one complains about it. You guys would call this slowplaying and being "that guy."

Being a good player means taking advantage of all of the rules at your disposal. If the clock ruleset allows people to play within the confines of the rules and gain an advantage, shouldn't you expect them to? That is the definition of tournament play - playing to win and using every trick and tool at your disposal.

You can't implement a system and then get mad when people break it. Create a better system.

 Marmatag wrote:
You need to do better than calling people "That Guy" for playing within the confines of a system that encourages certain abuses.

You can burn time in Blitz Chess by just putting your opponent in check repeatedly. It's a viable strategy and no one complains about it. You guys would call this slowplaying and being "that guy."

Being a good player means taking advantage of all of the rules at your disposal. If the clock ruleset allows people to play within the confines of the rules and gain an advantage, shouldn't you expect them to? That is the definition of tournament play - playing to win and using every trick and tool at your disposal.

You can't implement a system and then get mad when people break it. Create a better system.

You are going to have to do better than saying "I can easily break it by doing x". Show up to a GT using these rules and attempt to do any of these things a number of times to game the system and see how far you make it before a judge gets called over every game and you eventually get the boot. Make sure to video tape it as I'm sure all of Dakka is going to enjoy you getting called out and kicked out

As your okay with blitz play, surely your okay with auto losing warmachine style when your warlord dies? That is as relevant no?

ITT:
"Clocks will stop slowplaying, because people will get kicked out for gaming the clock."

In other threads:
"TOs won't kick out slow players because they're mean and they have to discuss it before hand and golly they're just so busy..."

The number of times I've seen people who should've been sanctioned/penalized for their behavior and weren't tells me that adding clocks won't actually make the TOs and judges actually adjudicate or facilitate anything.

And I'm not trying to be nice.

The premise of the game is fair play. The object of the game is to have fun. The goal of the game is to win. The rules of the game are laid out by the Rulebooks, FAQs, and the Tournament Organizer.

The only things allowed to influence the game outcome are luck and skill.

When you said your going to not allow luck and skill to influence the out come of the game, but deceit, and emotional outbursts, your just a cheat. I've never had much respect for cheats. Not sure I'm going to start having any now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ITT:
"Clocks will stop slowplaying, because people will get kicked out for gaming the clock."

In other threads:
"TOs won't kick out slow players because they're mean and they have to discuss it before hand and golly they're just so busy..."

The number of times I've seen people who should've been sanctioned/penalized for their behavior and weren't tells me that adding clocks won't actually make the TOs and judges actually adjudicate or facilitate anything.

Will there be bad judges? of course. The issue before with slow play is that
1. It took a while for you to identify. even if you caught it the first turn they did it they now often soaked up a huge amount of time
2. In the past when someone slowplayed and you called over a judge there was no way to tell if someone slow played or you simply perceived it. With the introduction of the clock not only is it significantly harder (time is literally posted right there) any of the over the top methods to slow play mentioned in this thread are going to be obvious to the opponent and any TO or people watching the game

Right - when you have someone trying to game you - you have something to work with. Just the presence of chess clocks will discourage 90% of the slow players right off the bat - and the ones that still try will be identified quickly.

Seems fine to me (and I say that as a horde guard player who often uses over 200 models per game). If you can't finish your half of the game within your half of the time limit then you shouldn't have brought so many models. My biggest concern is what happens when you have a rules query asked about your force? If I get asked 20 questions challenging my every move in a game, I shouldn't pay for it in my time if each rule turns out to work as I stated.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Right - when you have someone trying to game you - you have something to work with. Just the presence of chess clocks will discourage 90% of the slow players right off the bat - and the ones that still try will be identified quickly.

Exactly, obviously no system is perfect and there will be people that do manage to cheat the system because of trusting opponents, bad TOs, clever slight of hand ect. But it's going to be significantly harder to pull off and it's going to increase the chances they get caught by a ton. All the clock does is give the person previously being cheated without recourse a tool to protect themselves.

 Marmatag wrote:
You need to do better than calling people "That Guy" for playing within the confines of a system that encourages certain abuses.

You can burn time in Blitz Chess by just putting your opponent in check repeatedly. It's a viable strategy and no one complains about it. You guys would call this slowplaying and being "that guy."

Being a good player means taking advantage of all of the rules at your disposal. If the clock ruleset allows people to play within the confines of the rules and gain an advantage, shouldn't you expect them to? That is the definition of tournament play - playing to win and using every trick and tool at your disposal.

You can't implement a system and then get mad when people break it. Create a better system.

If you want to win at all costs while completely ignoring your reputation in the very small 40k competitive community, sure. Most people acknowledge the importance of sportsmanship as well as being a strong player.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Seems fine to me (and I say that as a horde guard player who often uses over 200 models per game). If you can't finish your half of the game within your half of the time limit then you shouldn't have brought so many models. My biggest concern is what happens when you have a rules query asked about your force? If I get asked 20 questions challenging my every move in a game, I shouldn't pay for it in my time if each rule turns out to work as I stated.

If you watch the FLG guys weekly podcast they have answered this. If you feel that a person is asking too many questions you can start to swap it to their time when they ask and if the person refuses you stop the clock and call over a TO