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2018/07/20 12:37:19
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
Kommissar Kel wrote: It just isn't all steps. It is 2-6. You never go back to 1 in the Fight phase. You use the rules in 1 to move from step 6 to the next unit's step 2.
But this concept of "pre-selection" youre referring to doesn't exist as clarified in the FAQ I quoted above. When you are told you can fight, it means to go through all of the steps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nekooni wrote: Only HtC includes an "again" clause.
If you can ignore the "can't fight twice" part for OIDDDE, why can't I ignore the range requirement, too?
Because you can't ignore the "can't fight twice" clause in step 1 with OiDDDE or banners. There are specific mechanics that allow you to fight more than once, i.e. HtC, BftBG. OiDDDE is not one of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/20 12:47:15
2018/07/20 13:04:55
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
Kommissar Kel wrote: It just isn't all steps. It is 2-6. You never go back to 1 in the Fight phase. You use the rules in 1 to move from step 6 to the next unit's step 2.
But this concept of "pre-selection" youre referring to doesn't exist as clarified in the FAQ I quoted above. When you are told you can fight, it means to go through all of the steps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nekooni wrote: Only HtC includes an "again" clause.
If you can ignore the "can't fight twice" part for OIDDDE, why can't I ignore the range requirement, too?
Because you can't ignore the "can't fight twice" clause in step 1 with OiDDDE or banners. There are specific mechanics that allow you to fight more than once, i.e. HtC, BftBG. OiDDDE is not one of them.
It helps if you don't remove 99% of the context. I was responding to Johnny who claimed that HtC allows a second round of fighting for a unit, but wouldn't allow it to ignore other conditions within Step 1 - at least that's what I think he's saying.
Which can't be correct. I can get the notion of "you have to go through the conditions listed in Step 1" if it considers all of the conditions, but cherry-picking (like Johnny apparently does) makes zero sense to me. I'd rather play it like you suggested, even though I still don't think you have to check Step 1's condition. The FAQ doesn't refer to the steps, it says "you pick a unit, then ..." - and the stratagem tells us to pick what unit. Step 1 is purely "pick a unit according to these rules, then fight it as described in 2-6, then return here and pick the next unit".
HIWPI is that if you're eligible to be the target of the Stratagem or Effect that'll allow you to fight, you're allowed to fight.
RAW it needs a FAQ entry to be clear.
2018/07/20 14:07:36
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
After looking back to thr Designer's Commentary; I am completely changing my position.
They make it clear in there that a unit not within 1", which started the phase within 1" cannot be chosen to fight.
They also state that a unit which did not start the Fight phase within 1"(and didn't charge), can be chosen to fight if an enemy unit had piled in or consolidated to within 1" of them.
Both are in page 2 in the second column.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2018/07/20 14:08:39
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
At which point none of the stratatgems that let you fight again can work, because they have been FAQ'd to indicate that it has to follow all 6 steps, and the first step keeps them from fighting again because they already fought once. RAI you get to, but RAW the FAQ doesn't state that the line in step 1 is not overridden by the stratagem. As it is, it looks like people are arguing that you're allowed to ignore part of step 1 for fight again but not for a stratagem that just lets you fight, which looks like they are not being treated equally. This really could use a FAQ for GW to make clear how they want it handled, as the argument could go either way.
2018/07/20 14:20:02
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
Kommissar Kel wrote: After looking back to thr Designer's Commentary; I am completely changing my position.
They make it clear in there that a unit not within 1", which started the phase within 1" cannot be chosen to fight.
They also state that a unit which did not start the Fight phase within 1"(and didn't charge), can be chosen to fight if an enemy unit had piled in or consolidated to within 1" of them.
Both are in page 2 in the second column.
Yeah, that's nothing new. But that's kinda the whole point of this discussion - my stance is that you don't choose the unit as described in Step 1 because it's chosen by the Stratagem, which has it's own, specific requirements.
2018/07/21 08:56:12
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/21 08:56:49
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2018/07/21 12:26:05
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
Did or did you not state that OIDDDE would work even after that unit had already attacked? Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought you said that it does work.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
And no, I'm not cherry-picking which part of Step 1 I get to ignore, I'm saying it's overridden/ignored due to the Stratagem saying the unit gets to fight. IIRC the last sentence from Step 1 is pretty clear about what is or isn't "fighting" - so I'm ignoring the entire Step 1. You - unless I misunderstood - ignore only part of Step 1, for some reason.
doctortom wrote: As it is, it looks like people are arguing that you're allowed to ignore part of step 1 for fight again but not for a stratagem that just lets you fight, which looks like they are not being treated equally. This really could use a FAQ for GW to make clear how they want it handled, as the argument could go either way.
exactly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/21 12:30:45
2018/07/21 14:46:13
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase within a fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/21 17:26:14
2018/07/21 16:49:32
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2018/07/21 17:29:59
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
This particular case, I think, brings us back to the "[INSERT PHASE] phase" vs "as if [INSERT PHASE] phase" debate. Can you have an "as if fight phase" when it is currently already your actual fight phase?
2018/07/21 17:53:02
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
This particular case, I think, brings us back to the "[INSERT PHASE] phase" vs "as if [INSERT PHASE] phase" debate. Can you have an "as if fight phase" when it is currently already your actual fight phase?
I think that's rather easy to answer: you deal with it as if it was the fight phase. since it's already the fight phase, it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't say you get a new fight phase.
The whole point of the "as if it's XY phase" clause is that it allows e.g. Fight stuff to properly happen outside of the Fight phase, e.g. "reroll 1s toHit in the shooting phase" working during Overwatch. It's not part of e.g. HtC since that's always used in the fight phase, and therefore unneccessary.
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
It says you get to fight. It doesn't say you get to fight again.
Spoiler:
Just as a disclaimer: that's not how I would play it, I'm just trying to understand your position. I still think all of the stratagems we're talking about allow you to fight, and that it doesn't matter if they contain a "fight as if it was the fight phase", a "fight again" or a mere "can fight".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/21 17:56:17
2018/07/21 20:28:48
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
nekooni wrote: I think that's rather easy to answer: you deal with it as if it was the fight phase. since it's already the fight phase, it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't say you get a new fight phase.
The whole point of the "as if it's XY phase" clause is that it allows e.g. Fight stuff to properly happen outside of the Fight phase, e.g. "reroll 1s toHit in the shooting phase" working during Overwatch. It's not part of e.g. HtC since that's always used in the fight phase, and therefore unneccessary.
This is my stance as well. But as this is undeterminable from the RAW, for the most part this issue needs to rely on RAI.
2018/07/23 13:36:18
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
skchsan wrote: ... for the most part this issue needs to rely on RAI.
Even though so far I am against using this Strat to fight if you aren't already within 1" by RAW, I am totally for using it as such RAI.
It's pretty clear RAI that the Character is meant to lash out for one more attack before being slain. A rule technicality preventing it from doing so is pretty lame and goes against the spirit of the game (which is to roll dice, have fun, and have for crazy stuff happen that's worthy of a BL story)
In a casual game, I wouldn't bat an eye at someone using it if outside 1" of an enemy. It's fun and meant to happen.
If, however, in a tournament setting it would have an affect on my standing personally, I might call a TO over to get a final ruling.
