Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think one key aspect to keep in mind is that a lot of sports have fairly simple rules; plus many have multiple viewers. Many top sporting events have not just a ref, but multiple people on the lines and even lasers and other tech to help ensure fair play and that the rules are followed.

Even the slow-replay feature is another key tool as is having multiple camera angles. A ball going past two posts and into a net sounds simple; but confirmation or a near miss/goal can require some investigation and whilst there is only one ref; he's backed up with a team.



Warhammer games lack this nad most events appear to struggle just to get enough TO to cover the tables; let alone cover all the tables with an official for every single game.

Further whilst the game has very precise rule elements, reality often defeats them such as

a) The way GW writes rules can make it very easy to miss-remember and that's before you throw in multiple previous editions which can easily cause an experienced player to miss-remember a rule.
The way GW writes also means that sometimes even checking the books can't give a clear answer or the answer isn't where you think it is.

b) Measuring should be accurate, but in reality there is room for error and perception variation. Even if you are trying to be 100% accurate if you've got a rearing dragon filling most of the base and going up several inches you are not going to perfectly measure "to the middle o the base" because your measuring stick is already several inches up in the air working over the head of the dragon.

c) Not every match can be recorded and even if they are sometimes the angle might not give the best view of a situation.

d) Laser stuff is out there but not mandatory and even when it is brought in its not a be-all-end-all of issues.



In the end I think this s why many people argue for tighter rules and enforcement; but at the same time want to see many issues debated and weight up case by case. Intent is part of this game where the rules and mechanics are complex.
Clearly things like weighted dice are not accidents, but many other things can be.

I think logging reports and pooling information is the best way forward; at least then it can track what is going on and actually work toward giving some hard data to common errors/probems/issues not just at a player level; but at a community level. Such data might show how our perceptions of mistakes might be correct OR could be totally wrong.

DJ3 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Your post would make more sense if DQ meant Dairy Queen. Like, take players aside, discuss issues, collect perspectives from multiple people, work out the best possible situation for everyone.

Sort of like the ATC organizers did. Only with ice cream.

I'm on board for free ice cream.

As far as the previous opinion regarding mass DQs for every infraction, I say this from the standpoint of someone who's been involved in organizing major events (rather than someone who was just DQ'd from a major event), but it's just not feasible.

People see things like Vegas and Adepticon and NOVA from afar and they end up with this perception of high-end 40k being like a major sport, but it's just not. The top 1% of players make mistakes, but those are just the top 1%--everybody else makes metric tons of mistakes, and if you start throwing them all out, you very quickly won't have an event left. This is still a hobby, not a sport or a job, and the focus from organizers' perspective is still on making things enjoyable for 500 people, not overly restricting every tiny facet of gameplay to drill down on the 2 people playing for the win at the end.

We're starting to get more headway in adapting to the latter without harming the former--with things like stricter slow play enforcement on top tables--but it's got a long way to go.

You hit the nail on the head.

Tournaments are not professional 40k. There is no such thing. Tournaments are hobbists getting together to play games.

Seems a loud minority are trying to raise expectations to the level of a professional grade sport. The assumption of good faith is being thrown out the window in favor of a zero tolerance policy. You have to know your army inside and out and know the rules to the point of perfection or you go home, no excuses.

That's not a game, that's a job you don't get paid for. If you really listen to the complaints, that's what the mob is demanding.

DJ3 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Your post would make more sense if DQ meant Dairy Queen. Like, take players aside, discuss issues, collect perspectives from multiple people, work out the best possible situation for everyone.

Sort of like the ATC organizers did. Only with ice cream.

I'm on board for free ice cream.

As far as the previous opinion regarding mass DQs for every infraction, I say this from the standpoint of someone who's been involved in organizing major events (rather than someone who was just DQ'd from a major event), but it's just not feasible.

People see things like Vegas and Adepticon and NOVA from afar and they end up with this perception of high-end 40k being like a major sport, but it's just not. The top 1% of players make mistakes, but those are just the top 1%--everybody else makes metric tons of mistakes, and if you start throwing them all out, you very quickly won't have an event left. This is still a hobby, not a sport or a job, and the focus from organizers' perspective is still on making things enjoyable for 500 people, not overly restricting every tiny facet of gameplay to drill down on the 2 people playing for the win at the end.

We're starting to get more headway in adapting to the latter without harming the former--with things like stricter slow play enforcement on top tables--but it's got a long way to go.

The thing is, and at risk to jinxing myself I will say it on behalf of the 99%: I have never brought an illegal list to a tournament. I’ve stayed up late nights to paint/model to the published tournament standards and paid exorbitant markup to print at the hotel cause I lost my required 8 copies of my list. We do all these things because they’re the standard, and up until recently it was probably assumed that the “top players” also played by the rules.
You guys (the 40k celebrities) have an obligation to be better than the pitiful excuses you offer. If you want your tournaments to mean something, you have to hold yourselves to a higher standard, because otherwise frankly there is no justification for the TO/player collusion that sees your kind at the top tables every GT.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
DQ for cheating with the plasma pistol.

DQ everyone else who had an illegal list.

"Sorry, you can't use those here" at sign in for bringing models which clearly violate event rules. It's unfortunate that the army wasn't banned up front, but it never should have been allowed.

I am disappointed that people admit to breaking clear and explicit rules and complain that it is unfair that they don't get to keep playing. Follow the rules and you won't get DQed.

Your post would make more sense if DQ meant Dairy Queen. Like, take players aside, discuss issues, collect perspectives from multiple people, work out the best possible situation for everyone.

Sort of like the ATC organizers did. Only with ice cream.

The best possible solution is for cheaters to be removed from the event.

 Peregrine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
DQ for cheating with the plasma pistol.

DQ everyone else who had an illegal list.

"Sorry, you can't use those here" at sign in for bringing models which clearly violate event rules. It's unfortunate that the army wasn't banned up front, but it never should have been allowed.

I am disappointed that people admit to breaking clear and explicit rules and complain that it is unfair that they don't get to keep playing. Follow the rules and you won't get DQed.

Your post would make more sense if DQ meant Dairy Queen. Like, take players aside, discuss issues, collect perspectives from multiple people, work out the best possible situation for everyone.

Sort of like the ATC organizers did. Only with ice cream.

The best possible solution is for cheaters to be removed from the event.

Totally see where you are going Peregrine and agree with you, it's time to prune all the undesirables.

I would be down with dealing harshly with cheaters so long as we also do something about all the people using recast models. GW's IP needs to be respected otherwise the game goes away. For that matter, proxy models. Everyone else put the resources into getting a real army, it's time to stop coddling the people trying to get away with something less and take the rest of us down.

For that matter, we should also git rid of the people participating in online mobs. They add nothing to events and promote a toxic culture. And they are predominantly white males, there's no reason everyone else should have to deal with all that privilege.

Which leads to getting rid of those who don't show sufficient respect for marginalized communities. There's a reason tournaments lack diversity. We should also be looking to build more inclusive tournaments and eliminate the misogyny that often exists at the tables.

TOs, for that matter, need to do more to share the space with new and less experienced players. They should not be leading the tournaments they organize, they should be using the event to promote the needs of those who are disadvantaged. I would love to see some of the Feminist40k people getting a chance to speak up about more important issues than games.

First step, of course, is dealing with all those cheaters infesting the top tables, which is an incontrovertible fact. I'm just as sick as you with all the cover ups and lies and look forward to achieving a more just and equitable tournament scene. All we need to do is start telling TOs how to run their events and we can finally fix some of these problems.

DJ3 wrote:


Things on dakka tend to spiral a bit out of control, as given the nature of internet anonymity nobody really feels any requirement to be civil in the least, but I'll be checking in every now and then to answer any serious questions anybody may have.
.

What are your thoughts on the fact that your team or members of your team are unpopular or disliked to the point where they want you removed.

Is it because you guys are good and people always want to knock you down a few pegs. Or does your team, or members of your team, exhibit behaviors or reactions from people that are not good for the hobby.

Are you part of the problem?

 greyknight12 wrote:
The thing is, and at risk to jinxing myself I will say it on behalf of the 99%: I have never brought an illegal list to a tournament. I’ve stayed up late nights to paint/model to the published tournament standards and paid exorbitant markup to print at the hotel cause I lost my required 8 copies of my list. We do all these things because they’re the standard, and up until recently it was probably assumed that the “top players” also played by the rules.
You guys (the 40k celebrities) have an obligation to be better than the pitiful excuses you offer. If you want your tournaments to mean something, you have to hold yourselves to a higher standard, because otherwise frankly there is no justification for the TO/player collusion that sees your kind at the top tables every GT.

I agree with this all the way. I peak behind the curtain and its an ugly baby. The dismissive replies don't help at all. I'll keep my hobby money local for the time being.

 greyknight12 wrote:

You guys (the 40k celebrities) have an obligation to be better than the pitiful excuses you offer. If you want your tournaments to mean something, you have to hold yourselves to a higher standard, because otherwise frankly there is no justification for the TO/player collusion that sees your kind at the top tables every GT.

Mistakes happen even at the highest level. Just apply the punishment accordingly. In this case from what I have read they did so. What you are asking for is a change of policies. That is fine too and it appears organisers are going to look at it.

The presumption of a "mistake" makes no sense. Perma-ban!

 Smirrors wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

You guys (the 40k celebrities) have an obligation to be better than the pitiful excuses you offer. If you want your tournaments to mean something, you have to hold yourselves to a higher standard, because otherwise frankly there is no justification for the TO/player collusion that sees your kind at the top tables every GT.

Mistakes happen even at the highest level. Just apply the punishment accordingly. In this case from what I have read they did so. What you are asking for is a change of policies. That is fine too and it appears organisers are going to look at it.

The problem is this isn't an isolated occurrence. The punishment does fit the crime when you look at the past history of abuses and disrespectful behavior. As far as a mob is concerned, there was no visible anger or maliciousness shown to Team Happy at any time during the weekend. There were a large number of teams upset at the behavior and the history of the offenses.

 Overread wrote:
I think one key aspect to keep in mind is that a lot of sports have fairly simple rules

That is patently untrue. Golf, Baseball, Football - all of the major league sports have huge rulebooks that amend with changes every year.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

You know what else isn't fun? Having my opponent get away with cheating and keep playing. DQ and remove them from event property. If people know the penalty for an illegal list is crying in their hotel room over $1000 in wasted travel expenses they'll be damn careful about avoiding mistakes. Until then people will keep cheating and ruining it for the rest of us.

That literally happens in no sport, you know ones with real money involved.
I can shoot myself in the foot at a USPSA match, get DQ'd and still stay to watch the other competitors. Quit talking nonsense about banning them from the tables.

In MLB, NHL, and NFL, if you get ejected from the game, you are required to leave the playing area and become restricted to the locker room.

 thejughead wrote:

The problem is this isn't an isolated occurrence. The punishment does fit the crime when you look at the past history of abuses and disrespectful behavior. As far as a mob is concerned, there was no visible anger or maliciousness shown to Team Happy at any time during the weekend. There were a large number of teams upset at the behavior and the history of the offenses.

The mob: the spreading of unsubstantiated rumors and collusion to vote against them. It was not directly visible to them but they got word of it. It was certainly malicious.

There was a policy and it was adhered to. In fact the only reason they got told to leave was because the team volunteered to as stated by the TO and the team statement.

Like I questioned Justin above, they are part of the problem. This will blow over and things will improve.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think one key aspect to keep in mind is that a lot of sports have fairly simple rules

That is patently untrue. Golf, Baseball, Football - all of the major league sports have huge rulebooks that amend with changes every year.

Adding to that, the rules for MLB are 184 pages, NHL is 229, NBA 66, NFL 93. Each of those sports also has a lot of vagueness in which refs make on the spot decisions. Again it seems like comments are being made about "other games being simpler" when they don't understand other games. The fact is 40k isn't the most complex game and the rules CAN be followed if you actually want to follow them.

The argument against Pro sports being a job doesn't hold water either when you consider these SAME games are played at college and highschool level with much of the rules intact.

 thejughead wrote:
As far as a mob is concerned, there was no visible anger or maliciousness shown to Team Happy at any time during the weekend.

This is an odd stance for someone who isn't directly involved to take, but I'd be interested to hear how you feel you can justify that statement.

I've attended dozens of these events, and I've never felt anything quite like what was going on around us this weekend. Again, my entire decision to look further into the rumors was sparked by a complete stranger confronting me during a conversation with a friend, and everything he said about me was verifiably untrue by all accounts. I also had a person approach me and tell me I should cut my teammates completely out of my life--not stop playing 40k with them, not find a new team, literally stop speaking to them or they would "poison my life." Malicious is a pretty accurate word from my point of view.

 thejughead wrote:
There were a large number of teams upset at the behavior and the history of the offenses.

I'm trying to be as transparent as possible here, and this kind of gray vagueness does nobody any good--please provide details about what you mean.

Again, my concern is that the "teams upset about the behavior" were upset about behavior that did not occur, based entirely on lies from a motivated group of individuals.

I would also be interested to hear about the "history of offenses"--what exactly were our issues at previous ATCs, in your opinion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smirrors wrote:
What are your thoughts on the fact that your team or members of your team are unpopular or disliked to the point where they want you removed.

Is it because you guys are good and people always want to knock you down a few pegs. Or does your team, or members of your team, exhibit behaviors or reactions from people that are not good for the hobby.

Are you part of the problem?

Forgot to comment on this Smirrors--first off, I'm not willing to speak on behalf of other people on my team being "disliked," as that's pretty personal and would be for them to respond to.

From my end, I've never had any issues at these events--an opponent shouted at me at a previous ATC (two years ago), but the consensus was that he was in the wrong and later apologized. Even at the time I was pretty understanding as I've seen much worse as a judge, and know how heated people can get. We had no problems during our game and the issue only arose while filling out score sheets. I've had no other issues in ~10 years of playing tournament 40k.

So no, I don't personally believe my behavior to be part of the problem--and I'm sure there's some element of wanting to "knock us down a few pegs," given that we had won all three prior ATCs up until this point, as that's just human nature. We know teams practice extra hard against our lists, and spend extra time strategizing pairings against us.

What we did not expect was a much darker side to all of this to come to the surface, where if we appeared to be in a position to win for a fourth time, a small group would attempt to have us removed at any cost. That goes far beyond anything we could have possibly seen coming, and led to a lot of confusion until the pieces started to fall into place from the chaos and rumors immediately after the event.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think one key aspect to keep in mind is that a lot of sports have fairly simple rules

That is patently untrue. Golf, Baseball, Football - all of the major league sports have huge rulebooks that amend with changes every year.

You just gave me war flashbacks to every argument I've had about what constitutes successfully catching a football...

Speaking of the NFL, that organization has a very similar problem to one of the things we're seeing here: inconsistent application of penalties. For unsportsmanlike conduct and other offenses that call for a fine it can feel like the commissioner is throwing a dart at a board to decide how harsh the penalty will be; codifying specific penalties for specific offenses would do a lot of good here and there.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Totally see where you are going Peregrine and agree with you, it's time to prune all the undesirables.

I would be down with dealing harshly with cheaters so long as we also do something about all the people using recast models. GW's IP needs to be respected otherwise the game goes away. For that matter, proxy models. Everyone else put the resources into getting a real army, it's time to stop coddling the people trying to get away with something less and take the rest of us down.

For that matter, we should also git rid of the people participating in online mobs. They add nothing to events and promote a toxic culture. And they are predominantly white males, there's no reason everyone else should have to deal with all that privilege.

Which leads to getting rid of those who don't show sufficient respect for marginalized communities. There's a reason tournaments lack diversity. We should also be looking to build more inclusive tournaments and eliminate the misogyny that often exists at the tables.

TOs, for that matter, need to do more to share the space with new and less experienced players. They should not be leading the tournaments they organize, they should be using the event to promote the needs of those who are disadvantaged. I would love to see some of the Feminist40k people getting a chance to speak up about more important issues than games.

First step, of course, is dealing with all those cheaters infesting the top tables, which is an incontrovertible fact. I'm just as sick as you with all the cover ups and lies and look forward to achieving a more just and equitable tournament scene. All we need to do is start telling TOs how to run their events and we can finally fix some of these problems.

Yep, really proving my point here about "competitive" 40k being a joke. You're seriously comparing expecting people to follow the rules to nonsense about banning people who don't spend enough money or replacing tournaments with Feminist40k speeches. I never thought I'd see the day when "competitive" players defend cheaters to the death, and insist that we need to accept cheating as part of the game or we're all the worst TFGs.

And yes, it is incontrovertible fact that cheaters exist. FFS, we have someone from one of the top teams admitting to cheating (illegal list) in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DJ3 wrote:
People see things like Vegas and Adepticon and NOVA from afar and they end up with this perception of high-end 40k being like a major sport, but it's just not. The top 1% of players make mistakes, but those are just the top 1%--everybody else makes metric tons of mistakes, and if you start throwing them all out, you very quickly won't have an event left. This is still a hobby, not a sport or a job, and the focus from organizers' perspective is still on making things enjoyable for 500 people, not overly restricting every tiny facet of gameplay to drill down on the 2 people playing for the win at the end.

This is just absurd. We're talking about competitive tournaments, complete with all the associated bits for a competitive sport: competition-focused game design, national rankings, celebration of champions, etc. It's a tournament, not 40k night at your local store. But apparently we're supposed to discard all of this, and just accept that the rules will be broken and we don't want to force people to play by the rules. What's the point in even having a tournament then? Just admit that you aren't playing a competitive game, call it "let's all get together and play some casual narrative games this weekend". At least that would be being honest about the kind of game you're advocating.

DJ3 wrote:


I'm trying to be as transparent as possible here, and this kind of gray vagueness does nobody any good--please provide details about what you mean.

Again, my concern is that the "teams upset about the behavior" were upset about behavior that did not occur, based entirely on lies from a motivated group of individuals.

I would also be interested to hear about the "history of offenses"--what exactly were our issues at previous ATCs, in your opinion?

You do seem to be going to great lengths to avoid the simple obvious explanation for events and instead construct a paranoid conspiracy theory here. It is not a good look.

Certain members of your team by their known, verified and well documented behaviour in previous events have painted a massive target on themselves. Trust once lost is very hard to regain and if you as a member of their team did not understand this before you went into the event then you were fooling nobody but yourself. Once a person has a dirty reputation they need to be cleaner than clean if they are going to continue to be accepted in a community.

So instead of telling us about this nameless, faceless cabal of malign actors against your fine upstanding team perhaps you can consider that what happened is a natural and normal reaction of a community to people of ill repute. That does not mean that none of you can play again but it does mean that for a time those players cannot expect any "mistakes" to be regarded as in good faith - so they had better double down on making really sure they do not make mistakes or engage in any questionable behaviours.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

DJ3 wrote:


I'm trying to be as transparent as possible here, and this kind of gray vagueness does nobody any good--please provide details about what you mean.

Again, my concern is that the "teams upset about the behavior" were upset about behavior that did not occur, based entirely on lies from a motivated group of individuals.

I would also be interested to hear about the "history of offenses"--what exactly were our issues at previous ATCs, in your opinion?

You do seem to be going to great lengths to avoid the simple obvious explanation for events and instead construct a paranoid conspiracy theory here. It is not a good look.

Certain members of your team by their known, verified and well documented behaviour in previous events have painted a massive target on themselves. Trust once lost is very hard to regain and if you as a member of their team did not understand this before you went into the event then you were fooling nobody but yourself. Once a person has a dirty reputation they need to be cleaner than clean if they are going to continue to be accepted in a community.

So instead of telling us about this nameless, faceless cabal of malign actors against your fine upstanding team perhaps you can consider that what happened is a natural and normal reaction of a community to people of ill repute. That does not mean that none of you can play again but it does mean that for a time those players cannot expect any "mistakes" to be regarded as in good faith - so they had better double down on making really sure they do not make mistakes or engage in any questionable behaviours.

So much this...

Pretty much sums it up.

 greyknight12 wrote:

The thing is, and at risk to jinxing myself I will say it on behalf of the 99%: I have never brought an illegal list to a tournament. I’ve stayed up late nights to paint/model to the published tournament standards and paid exorbitant markup to print at the hotel cause I lost my required 8 copies of my list. We do all these things because they’re the standard, and up until recently it was probably assumed that the “top players” also played by the rules.
You guys (the 40k celebrities) have an obligation to be better than the pitiful excuses you offer. If you want your tournaments to mean something, you have to hold yourselves to a higher standard, because otherwise frankly there is no justification for the TO/player collusion that sees your kind at the top tables every GT.

So, I agree with this 100%, as I am sure many others do. As I said previously, the onus must be on the player to get their list correct and legal prior to submission. With the number of free tools and people out there and various sites (including this one with an entire army list sub-forum), no one has the excuse of it being a mistake, let alone a repeated mistake with different lists at different events. (not accusing anyone related in this whole incident as doing so, but, these “mistakes” do happen far too often)

Personally, I think, if you play with a model using wargear not paid for, then that game results in an automatic max point win for the opponent and the offending model/unit gets removed from the list for all future games. If used in previous games at the event in the same way, then those games also result in a max win for the opponent. In all cases, the offending player would come away with 0 points.

Issues with conversions NEED to be addressed day 1, ideally prior to game 1. This has a split responsibility. The player using a conversion that drastically differs from the original GW/FW model needs to clear it with the event PRIOR to turning up. If in question/as a backup, the TOs should ideally have a list of all conversions and double check them prior to round 1. Any issues would result in the model being removed from the event. Any “undeclared and questionable” conversions used would get automatically pulled from the event (note a “conversion” wouldn’t be something like putting a catachan body on cadian legs with a vanguard head, but more akin to the issue seen in this thread by swapping horses for an alligator). It is also the responsibility of the opponent to raise any potential issues with the TOs about conversions prior to the game starting. Failing to raise a potential issue simply means, you, as an opponent, agree to play against said models and find no issue with them. If someone in game 5 complains, but there were no issues from opponents in games 1-4, then there would be no impact on games 1-4 but potentially on games 5+.

Mistakes in game are completely different however. The heat of the moment, the pressure of a major turn, the excitement of getting a lead, the nerves, the rushing etc etc. As much as everyone likes to presume they are infallible in this regard, mistakes are going to happen. Is this an excuse? No, of course not, but, it must be considered and dealt with accordingly. Unfortunately, it then falls to the TO to determine whether it was intentional or not, and whether it has been a repeated mistake throughout the event. A set table of punishments would then be referred to.

In regards to submitting illegal lists, it would have to depend on the issue. If you are over points, models/units costing 100 points are removed from your list for every 50 points over you are (so, if your list is 2001 points, you effectively lose 101 points). The models removed are taken from Troop units first, and must be taken from the same unit until the points cost is reached or the unit is completely removed, at which point you move to the next unit. These are removed from the highest CP detachment first. If this results in an illegal detachment, and cannot be swapped to a different detachment, then the new detachment becomes akin to a patrol detachment and awards 0 CP for the rest of the event.

If you take an incorrect CP farm relic, then, the relic is removed and you have half CP for the rest of the event. If used in previous games, they revert to a max point to 0-point win for the opponent.
Incorrect wargear/not wysiwyg results in the model/unit being removed from the event.

Etc etc


The more I was typing this up, the more I am tempted to just put together a full, definitive list of policies and guidelines for 40k event issue resolution which would then be submitted as a standard, after review, as it clearly feels like there is currently no such thing, and, as a result, everyone is suffering because of it.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
You do seem to be going to great lengths to avoid the simple obvious explanation for events and instead construct a paranoid conspiracy theory here. It is not a good look.

Certain members of your team by their known, verified and well documented behaviour in previous events have painted a massive target on themselves. Trust once lost is very hard to regain and if you as a member of their team did not understand this before you went into the event then you were fooling nobody but yourself. Once a person has a dirty reputation they need to be cleaner than clean if they are going to continue to be accepted in a community.

So instead of telling us about this nameless, faceless cabal of malign actors against your fine upstanding team perhaps you can consider that what happened is a natural and normal reaction of a community to people of ill repute. That does not mean that none of you can play again but it does mean that for a time those players cannot expect any "mistakes" to be regarded as in good faith - so they had better double down on making really sure they do not make mistakes or engage in any questionable behaviours.

This is outright ridiculous and I was not planning to respond to it, but here we go.

So once a player has earned a "bad reputation," a rather nebulous determination, they should retreat into the woods and not attend tournaments until a randomly determined amount of time? You'd prefer the court of public opinion be allowed to hand out arbitrary, universal bans to the players they dislike?

And if they dare show their faces, they be chased out by a torch-wielding mob?

You genuinely see no issue with the community that would foster, and aren't just using an extremely overstated means to say "you got what you deserved"?

This is far more the dakka I was speaking about previously--not a realistic representation of what actually occurs at major tournaments, where the overwhelming majority of interactions between players are positive, but instead the sort of hyperbole that exists solely on the internet slung about by people with no stake in the matter but who expect their anonymous internet comments to have a direct impact on matters.

If an event wants to ban a player, the event will ban the player. We don't rely on the will of the mob to make these decisions, which is sort of the entire point. You're making it very clear why it was so easy to manipulate opinion at the event.

If you disagree with the content of what I'm saying, don't make comments about cabals of lizard people, look into the matter yourself--ask a handful of people who were there what they heard. If you have any presence in the tournament community at all, you almost certainly know many people who were there. Then consider if you'd expect wild rumors to line up so perfectly across nearly 400 people.

Speak on the matter from an informed place, and I'd be happy to accept your disagreement in a more constructive manner, as I have with others who have had similar opinions.

DJ3 wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:
You do seem to be going to great lengths to avoid the simple obvious explanation for events and instead construct a paranoid conspiracy theory here. It is not a good look.

Certain members of your team by their known, verified and well documented behaviour in previous events have painted a massive target on themselves. Trust once lost is very hard to regain and if you as a member of their team did not understand this before you went into the event then you were fooling nobody but yourself. Once a person has a dirty reputation they need to be cleaner than clean if they are going to continue to be accepted in a community.

So instead of telling us about this nameless, faceless cabal of malign actors against your fine upstanding team perhaps you can consider that what happened is a natural and normal reaction of a community to people of ill repute. That does not mean that none of you can play again but it does mean that for a time those players cannot expect any "mistakes" to be regarded as in good faith - so they had better double down on making really sure they do not make mistakes or engage in any questionable behaviours.

This is outright ridiculous and I was not planning to respond to it, but here we go.

So once a player has earned a "bad reputation," a rather nebulous determination, they should retreat into the woods and not attend tournaments until a randomly determined amount of time? You'd prefer the court of public opinion be allowed to hand out arbitrary, universal bans to the players they dislike?

And if they dare show their faces, they be chased out by a torch-wielding mob?

You genuinely see no issue with the community that would foster, and aren't just using an extremely overstated means to say "you got what you deserved"?

This is far more the dakka I was speaking about previously--not a realistic representation of what actually occurs at major tournaments, where the overwhelming majority of interactions between players are positive, but instead the sort of hyperbole that exists solely on the internet slung about by people with no stake in the matter but who expect their anonymous internet comments to have a direct impact on matters.

If an event wants to ban a player, the event will ban the player. We don't rely on the will of the mob to make these decisions, which is sort of the entire point. You're making it very clear why it was so easy to manipulate opinion at the event.

If you disagree with the content of what I'm saying, don't make comments about cabals of lizard people, look into the matter yourself--ask a handful of people who were there what they heard. If you have any presence in the tournament community at all, you almost certainly know many people who were there. Then consider if you'd expect wild rumors to line up so perfectly across nearly 400 people.

Speak on the matter from an informed place, and I'd be happy to accept your disagreement in a more constructive manner, as I have with others who have had similar opinions.

Aaaaaaand you missed his point and proved it all in one tirade. Good job.

DJ3 wrote:
And if they dare show their faces, they be chased out by a torch-wielding mob?

No, that's ridiculous. Nobody is going to be burned alive.

OTOH, a good, old-fashioned tarring and feathering would not be out of the question

 quickfuze wrote:
Aaaaaaand you missed his point and proved it all in one tirade. Good job.

I'm not seeing any actual facts or even opinions come out of this last group of responders--just quips about conspiracies and one-liners.

Please tell me what you believe to be so fantastical about the following sequence of events:

1. A group of people was approaching teams, asking them to boycott the entire event if we were not removed. This is absolute fact.
2. The same group of people was providing a wildly incorrect version of events to the teams they approached, who obviously had no idea of the real facts, because they were not directly involved. This can be corroborated by dozens of captains from the event.

And you believe that the concept that tying these two pieces of information together to the conclusion that the aforementioned group of people was actively attempting to have us removed constitutes an unbelievable conspiracy?

Realistically, the only jump in logic I'm making there is that the people pushing for us to be removed was the source of the rumors, but regardless, somebody was actively spreading misinformation about us and somebody was using that information to ask for us to be removed. From what information I was able to gather after the event, it started to become clear that they were the same people.

I'm trying to have an honest conversation about the situation, but that's frequently hard to do on an anonymous internet forum. I genuinely want you to tell me what issue you have with the points I'm presenting there, not provide sarcastic responses intended only to provoke and demean.

So there are a lot of things to process here. It's good to get the extra details from DJ3 who obviously has a bit more information on this than the masses. I'm slightly concerned, however, that after the first conversation regarding issues with your team even though you claim to accept the TO's decision about any further problems leading to a DQ you're now disputing the reason for the DQ despite what was clearly a violation of the rules on proxies/conversions. I'd agree that on its own a DQ for that infringement is extremely harsh, but that's not actually what happened in this context. It was simply the final infringement after a previous warning. It has already been demonstrated by people here that these models broke the rules of the tournament. Additionally, it doesn't seem to be in dispute that a member of Team Happy refused to go along with a judge's call, which is completely unacceptable. The fact this incident happened after a 25 minute argument between two players should be cause for concern too, and that's on both players, not just the one from Team Happy. These are the sort of things that cause people to question your attitude, along with some of your player's reputations preceding them. In an ideal world we'd judge people on their behaviour in the here-and-now but as an adult you should be aware that previous conduct can have an effect on current perceptions.

As far as the wider issues, I'll reiterate what I sad before, and what Kdash pointed out, which is that competitive 40k absolutely needs consistent, enforceable rules covering player behaviour and rules infringements. I don't think we need to immediately DQ anyone who breaks these rules (and kill their puppy while we're at it) but we do need clear penalties for these offences and for them to be applied consistently. It would probably also be a good thing to have some way to keep track of this kind of thing so if someone is consistently found to be using an illegal list, for example, further penalties can be applied. Having said that, I do find the attitudes of some players to be worryingly blasé about things like lists being incorrect. I've attended a lot of tournaments and, to my knowledge, I've never used an illegal list at any of them. It's not rocket surgery people, you're adding a list of small numbers together. It takes, at most, 10 minutes.

What we're seeing right now with competitive 40k is the cracks starting to appear in the system. I honestly don't think the game, in its current form, is fit for purpose as a competitive game at the level a lot people would like it to be. The fact some tournaments have prizes with significant cash value only exacerbates this. The rules are too imprecise, the system too needlessly bloated and there is something wrong with the attitudes in the competitive community. I think the last point actually follows from the first two in many ways. When the game itself is too complex and the rules too woolly it leaves the game open to exploitation by the unscrupulous. Every competitive community has its share of people willing to push the limits of etiquette and sportsmanship but most competitive games prevent this by having a solid, tight system at their heart. I contrast the competitive 40k scene with competitive X-Wing and the difference is night and day. To be clear, the biggest X-Wing tournaments are the same size as the big 40k events, and some of them have prizes that include free travel and accommodation to Worlds and Invitationals, so there's a fair amount riding on the games. Of course not every player is whiter than white but the reputation of the competitive X-Wing community is a hell of a lot better than that of 40k. I believe part of the reason is the much tighter rules in X-Wing, which leads to less opportunity for exploitation, but the game has also worked hard to foster a friendly, welcoming community. I think competitive 40k could learn a thing or two from that.

DJ3 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Aaaaaaand you missed his point and proved it all in one tirade. Good job.

I'm not seeing any actual facts or even opinions come out of this last group of responders--just quips about conspiracies and one-liners.

Please tell me what you believe to be so fantastical about the following sequence of events:

1. A group of people was approaching teams, asking them to boycott the entire event if we were not removed. This is absolute fact.
2. The same group of people was providing a wildly incorrect version of events to the teams they approached, who obviously had no idea of the real facts, because they were not directly involved. This can be corroborated by dozens of captains from the event.

And you believe that the concept that tying these two pieces of information together to the conclusion that the aforementioned group of people was actively attempting to have us removed constitutes an unbelievable conspiracy?

Realistically, the only jump in logic I'm making there is that the people pushing for us to be removed was the source of the rumors, but regardless, somebody was actively spreading misinformation about us and somebody was using that information to ask for us to be removed. From what information I was able to gather after the event, it started to become clear that they were the same people.

I'm trying to have an honest conversation about the situation, but that's frequently hard to do on an anonymous internet forum. I genuinely want you to tell me what issue you have with the points I'm presenting there, not provide sarcastic responses intended only to provoke and demean.

I think the point that was trying to be made, is, at what point does it go beyond "honest mistake" to "continual, intentional mistakes"?

If you had a player on your team that got called out in a tournament for a list issue, then, sure, it is possibly an honest mistake and you give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
But, what if he then gets called out at another event a few weeks later for another similar issued? And then again a month later at another major event? And then a 4th time for something completely different etc etc.

The problem is, that, this is happening more and more (supposedly) with a few well known "celebrity" players. The issue that the majority of the community see, is that nothing really gets done about it. Sure, they might get called out about it, but, nothing is being done to stop it in the first place. It gives the impression that certain people can get away with certain things, and it 100% gives the impression that it goes well beyond the "honest mistake" often portrayed by certain groups and people, into "this is now either clearly intentional, or the person committing these offences just doesn't know how to play the game".

Unfortunately, this is eventually going to mean that someone will get metaphorically lynched as an example of "yes we are dealing with the issue", and it'll likely be someone who doesn't deserve it while the more "celebrity" offenders quietly stop their antics for a bit.

Transparency and clarity have been severely lacking over the past few years, and as a result, trust between some groups of the community has suffered, but, at least it is something that can be addressed. The question is though, are people prepared to grow the balls to actually start enforcing certain rules and to stop parroting the "honest mistake", "nice guy" lines because they know the people or they are a "prominent" player. Of course, this isn't aimed at everyone and every event. Most events are perfectly fine and very very rarely have any issues that explode into mob vs TO vs 40k vs casual vs competitive etc, but rather it is those few "failures" that result in the largest amount of publicity and outcry simply because people don't understand what went on, WHY it went on, and how it is allowed to continue to go on.

I do applaud you though, for taking the time to try and explain the situation and answer questions/comments on the matter. I just hope we get to the stage of accepting that some things are unacceptable regardless, and that it starts getting addressed.

This also goes for the people that were spreading the initial fake, toxic, unsportsmanlike comments that caused this whole thing to explode in the first place. I just hope that they to, get called out about it and suffer some form of punishment/monitoring.

I doubt it'll happen though.

I think a major problem most people are missing is that Tournaments are NOT competitive 40k. I probably speak for AdeptiCon incidentally, but in speaking for NOVA, the format is built to enable every player type and skill level to have a really fun time and pursue what they're into. The only people putting so-called celebrities on a pedestal are the people making up conspiracy theories between TOs and regular con goers.

At the invitational, which IS explicitly just for competition, we'll have table refs and chess clocks on every single game. In the GT, which is decidedly structured for all 256 players and not the top 16, we'll enforce game losses and permanent list penalties as we always have, and we're strengthening our policies in light of the need to protect our attendees and charitable goals from the fury of terrible people on the faceless internet who have no idea what an event actually ends up feeling like. But we aren't going to restructure the entire thing to target what the internet thinks is a celebrity and slaughter the fun of the entire rest of the event in the process.

Ultimately the manner in which you play the game is far more likely to cause notoriety than celebrity, and the very last thing any TO wants is for their event to be won by the cool guy who cheated or to only be about the top players. Proposing that there's literally ANY benefit to a TO "helping the celebrities win" shows such a dramatic naivete that I feel awful for the future of our online community.

It appears very few people really understand what a tournament is or why most of us run the big ones. In any event, without commenting on Happy or ATC (because as a fellow organizer it's really not my place), I would say only that those who claim conspiracy theories with competitive 40k are sounding neither logical nor well informed.

Without quoting their whole posts, I want to say that I appreciate the comparatively well though-out responses from Kdash and Slipspace above--again, I'm welcoming opinions that disagree with our stance, I just want those opinions based on the actual facts of the matter.

Slipspace wrote:
I'm slightly concerned, however, that after the first conversation regarding issues with your team even though you claim to accept the TO's decision about any further problems leading to a DQ you're now disputing the reason for the DQ despite what was clearly a violation of the rules on proxies/conversions. I'd agree that on its own a DQ for that infringement is extremely harsh, but that's not actually what happened in this context. It was simply the final infringement after a previous warning.

This is a mostly accurate depiction of events--again, the agreement to leave if there were further issues was in response to the sportsmanship warning after the game you otherwise mentioned. Our context for that was further sportsmanship-related issues, arguments with other players, things along those lines. We agreed and had a very direct conversation with our teammates that we'd have zero tolerance for things like that going forward.

The other important note to point out (which I don't think has been mentioned so far) is that this agreement was mentioned to the other captains, in response to their complaints about our team. As in, teams approached the organizers, and the organizers' response was "they will be removed if there are any further issues." From our perspective, this may have sent people on a scavenger hunt for the straw that would break our camel's back.

Kdash wrote:
I think the point that was trying to be made, is, at what point does it go beyond "honest mistake" to "continual, intentional mistakes"?

...

The problem is, that, this is happening more and more (supposedly) with a few well known "celebrity" players.

I think it's important to point out for the wider gallery who may not have the full context (given that we aren't using specific names in these discussions) that the player being implied to be a problem "recently" in many of these posts (primarily by people who are not familiar with the details) was absolutely not involved in any of the three real problems that occurred (the Plasma Pistol, the argument with an opponent, and the conversion). I don't mean to call out Kdash's post specifically, but it keeps being implied, and it is incorrect.

DJ3 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I think the point that was trying to be made, is, at what point does it go beyond "honest mistake" to "continual, intentional mistakes"?

...

The problem is, that, this is happening more and more (supposedly) with a few well known "celebrity" players.

I think it's important to point out for the wider gallery who may not have the full context (given that we aren't using specific names in these discussions) that the player being implied to be a problem "recently" in many of these posts (primarily by people who are not familiar with the details) was absolutely not involved in any of the three real problems that occurred (the Plasma Pistol, the argument with an opponent, and the conversion). I don't mean to call out Kdash's post specifically, but it keeps being implied, and it is incorrect.

I didn’t mean to imply that one particular person was responsible for all the occurrences etc, and I apologise if it came across in that way.

The majority of my post was referring to the wider take on the situation as a whole, not just what happened at the ATC. The problem is, is that people always tend to hear about the repeat offenders, the major offenders etc and not the everyday, one off offenders.

As a result, people begin to question the term “honest mistake” a lot more than they should, simply because it gets used over and over again, and always seemingly in regards to a select few people in the community. Don’t get me wrong, 95% of all errors could very well be honest mistakes, due to the faqs, changing meta, new codices etc etc, but, it does get to be a bit of a worn-out excuse that can feel weak.

If I am honest, when the lists got published for the London GT and I heard that a couple of players were going that were previously, and repeatedly, noted for making list mistakes were attending, I deliberately checked their lists repeatedly to ensure that nothing untoward was going to happen. To me, I think this is a bad direction to take, but, because of what had happened previously I felt like I needed to take those steps to make sure. Nothing untoward was there and there were no issues with the lists, but, because of the current perception, I felt compelled to check.

With both you, the team and the ATC TOs trying to be more transparent about the current “incident”, I believe it is a good step in the right direction. The problem we all face overall though, is ensuring it continues and others follow your lead in the future.

People want to understand, but, they also don’t understand why certain things seemed to be “allowed” in the past. It is because of that, that a lot of people don’t have a lot of faith in it being changed in the future and then leads to the overall outcry when another incident comes to light.

It isn’t a case of, “oh it has happened again, big surprise”, more of a “it feels like it has happened again and is happening continuously”.