Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":



The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

 Weazel wrote:
Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":

Spoiler:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [12pts]: Leader, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

+ Non-specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

Vox caster's are your only safety net for nerve tests that doesn't involve CP, taking one means you can use that CP on stuff like Get down or other strat's that will buff your offensive output rather than hold onto it to try and save a model down the line. Stick it on your comm's specialist so you only have the 1 model to keep hidden and safe. Something else to be aware of is that the second plasma gunner is gonna need to stick relatively close to your sergeant if you want to be able to safely overcharge him, personally I've found it better to drop him all together and take 2 special weapon guardsmen with weapons of choice, this gives you a good platform for flamers or melta's that are relatively disposable and if taken with the aforementioned addition of a vox which would cause you to lose a guy would keep you at 9 guys which means you need to lose 5 models to take a break test.

 gbghg wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":

Spoiler:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [12pts]: Leader, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

+ Non-specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

Vox caster's are your only safety net for nerve tests that doesn't involve CP, taking one means you can use that CP on stuff like Get down or other strat's that will buff your offensive output rather than hold onto it to try and save a model down the line. Stick it on your comm's specialist so you only have the 1 model to keep hidden and safe. Something else to be aware of is that the second plasma gunner is gonna need to stick relatively close to your sergeant if you want to be able to safely overcharge him, personally I've found it better to drop him all together and take 2 special weapon guardsmen with weapons of choice, this gives you a good platform for flamers or melta's that are relatively disposable and if taken with the aforementioned addition of a vox which would cause you to lose a guy would keep you at 9 guys which means you need to lose 5 models to take a break test.

Okay thanks for your input. I want to keep it pure Scions, just for narrative's sake. A plain guardsman Carl with whatever gear just feels a bit stoopid. So basically it comes down to having 8 guys + Vox or 9 guys without a Vox. 9 guys takes the breaking point one death further but rerolling Nerve for Ld6 guys is kinda important... so idk really.

 gbghg wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":

Spoiler:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [12pts]: Leader, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

+ Non-specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

Vox caster's are your only safety net for nerve tests that doesn't involve CP, taking one means you can use that CP on stuff like Get down or other strat's that will buff your offensive output rather than hold onto it to try and save a model down the line. Stick it on your comm's specialist so you only have the 1 model to keep hidden and safe. Something else to be aware of is that the second plasma gunner is gonna need to stick relatively close to your sergeant if you want to be able to safely overcharge him, personally I've found it better to drop him all together and take 2 special weapon guardsmen with weapons of choice, this gives you a good platform for flamers or melta's that are relatively disposable and if taken with the aforementioned addition of a vox which would cause you to lose a guy would keep you at 9 guys which means you need to lose 5 models to take a break test.

I would add sarg to be a leader and tempestor with powerfist. Actually sarg ordering tempestor FB (fix power fist?) is kinda brutal (order is issued before fight phase). Power sword on tempestor is kind wasted because of its s3.


I think that KT size of 8 has same breaking point as size of 9. In book is stated if MORE than half of Your team...
Or I am mistaken, therefore please correct me as I do not have rulebook by my side right now

Gnollu wrote:
I would add sarg to be a leader and tempestor with powerfist. Actually sarg ordering tempestor FB (fix power fist?) is kinda brutal (order is issued before fight phase). Power sword on tempestor is kind wasted because of its s3.

I think that KT size of 8 has same breaking point as size of 9. In book is stated if MORE than half of Your team...
Or I am mistaken, therefore please correct me as I do not have rulebook by my side right now

It's correct. The rule says:

Otherwise, if more than half of the models in your kill
team currently have flesh wounds, are shaken or are
out of action, it may be broken.

Maybe I'll just take a Vox and a Powerfist and deal with 8 guys. If I decide to go super competitive then I might take a few Carls.

What would be better playing plain scion against MEQ or Death Guard? Stay at 9 inches and shoot or maybe close to 6 inches and throw krak? That d3 damage is really tempting, especially against Plague Marines actually

Gnollu wrote:
What would be better playing plain scion against MEQ or Death Guard? Stay at 9 inches and shoot or maybe close to 6 inches and throw krak? That d3 damage is really tempting, especially against Plague Marines actually

Against DG, snipe down the Blight launcher user(s) ASAP. That is a S6 AP-2 poison weapon, wound you on 2+ and reroll 1's. Once they hit, guardsmen begin to die.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Gnollu wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

IG codex was FAQ'd to allow vox and Medics to carry lasguns.

You may have me to thank for that. I bugged them about it several times because there are models they have pictures of with the lasguns on their back but they wouldn't use them. Never managed to get them to give it to the Sarge but at least I got a small victory there.

Kill-Team forbids Guardsmen to have a Medic although the HQ box (Catachan/Cadian) comes with the option to build one.
This sucks a lot. You now what sucks even more? Factions like Eldar and Thousand Sons (Tzaangors) can have models with the Medic rule while at the same time never had rules in 40K to justify this design decision.
And SM also can´t use a model with the Medic rule. GW is nowadays all about having rules for existing models. So have they stopped selling Apothecaries?

Having played around with the battlescribe list builder I'd be inclined to take guard spam.

Leader
Sergeant - Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
Special
Gunner - Plasmagun - Sniper
Special Weapons Gunner - Flamer - Demo
Guardsman - Vox-caster - Comms
The rest
7 Guardsmen
2 special weapon squad gunners - flamer
3 Special weapon squad guardsmen

16 guys (1 Guardsman squad, 1 special weapon squad)
comes to 99pts (If battlescribe's points are correct).

I run a mix of scions and guardsmen. My reasoning for it is that it's a scions team with cannon fodder or servant guardsmen. I have a comms vox caster as a regular guardsman, a demo specialist with a flamer, 3 other regular flamer guardsmen, and a handful of lasgun guys.

The roster is:

-Tempestor - Leader - HSLPistol, Chainsword
-Guardsman - Comms - Vox
-Scion Gunner - Sniper - Plasma
-Scion Gunner - Heavy - HSVG
-Guardsman Gunner - Demo - Flamer
-Scion Gunner - HSVolleygun
-Scion Gunner - HSVolleygun
-Scion Gunner - Plasma
-Scion Gunner - Plasma
-2x Scion - HSLasgun
-3x Special Weapons Gunner - Flamer
-6x Guardsmen - Lasgun

I build out a handful of lists based on who I'm fighting.

The main TAC list is

Tempestor
Comms guy
Plasma Sniper
HSVG Heavy
1 more Plas
1 more HSVG
2 Flamer guys
1 rifle scion

Against hordes I drop the 2 plasma and the HSLG scion for a demo flamer, a third HSVG, and a couple guardsmen to soak up melee

Against MEQ drop the flamers, add plasma, fit in a few regular guardsmen for chaff.

I need to double check my actual written roster. I think I don't have any list that runs all 6 rifle guardsmen so I dropped it for a melta scion or two against things like primaris marines, 1k sons, DG, etc.

Tested a mix of guardsmrn, plasma guardsmeb, and scions today. Guardsmen did absolutely nothing the entire game. Plasma Gunner's hit on 6+ at 24" while a single marine plasma gunner sniper vox stratagem guy ran around killing people with 2+ to hit reroll 1s wound on 1s no save.

It was like 8th edition 40k in a horrendous -1 hit modifier match, except less fun.

Preliminary kill team review 2/10

 ph34r wrote:
Tested a mix of guardsmrn, plasma guardsmeb, and scions today. Guardsmen did absolutely nothing the entire game. Plasma Gunner's hit on 6+ at 24" while a single marine plasma gunner sniper vox stratagem guy ran around killing people with 2+ to hit reroll 1s wound on 1s no save.

It was like 8th edition 40k in a horrendous -1 hit modifier match, except less fun.

Preliminary kill team review 2/10

You can stack bonuses on guardsmen models too you know.

 ph34r wrote:
Tested a mix of guardsmrn, plasma guardsmeb, and scions today. Guardsmen did absolutely nothing the entire game. Plasma Gunner's hit on 6+ at 24" while a single marine plasma gunner sniper vox stratagem guy ran around killing people with 2+ to hit reroll 1s wound on 1s no save.

It was like 8th edition 40k in a horrendous -1 hit modifier match, except less fun.

Preliminary kill team review 2/10

Stack sniper and comms on one of your plasma guys too, preferably a scion. Regular guardsmen aren't great at killing stuff but they're good at soaking up damage and getting in the way.

Run the regular guardsmen aggressively in a mob. Don't sit and shoot at 24" range or they won't do anything. Get in their face and rapid fire on them. Hitting on 5's then unless they're in the open then 4's still.

Don't forget you've got a grenade, it's a little bit of a boost.

Charge your guardsmen into melee. If you tag that plasma marine that's 1 turn he's not shooting.

Your regular guardsmen are meant to be thrown away. Your scions are meant to do a lot of the work. I like guardsmen with flamers cause they don't need to roll to hit, guardsmen with lasguns for throwaways, and then scions with specials to do most of the killing work.

If you know you're going to face marines don't bring a lot of lasgun guardsmen. Maybe a handful for sacrifices and charging but not many. Take more scions with plasma and HSVGs. You get a 20 man roster to build your team from after you know what faction you're fighting.

Oh really? I did not know about that roster thing. That's kinda cool, thanks for the advice.

cmspano wrote:
...don't bring a lot of lasgun guardsmen.

Oh, couldn't agree more with this bit.
Against anything other than other guardsmen, they're little more than cannon fodder.

This is where we completely differ from 40k as a faction and admittedly, I fell into the trap of "bring ALL the dudes" on my first game too.
You don't get to fire as a unit where averages tend to average out, and your "re-roll 1's" order gets to affect 10 guys, and given how all the modifiers work, you'll be hitting a heck of a lot less, so when you DO hit you need to be reliably wounding and really making the opponent work for their saves.
For this reason - plasma against high toughness, against T3 models, scions with hot shots (both of the las and volley variety) really do the work.
Oh, and for the inevitable left over points, a demo flamer guardsman can threaten even plague marines (2's to wound, re-rolling 1's? Yes please - +1 to wound against obscured passive ability, +1 to wound tactic, re-roll 1's to wound order from nearby officer (12" never looked so far before!))), and even normal flamer guard can do a nasty if the opponent groups even just 2 guys too close - advance into range and because it's assault, let rip.

j33v3s wrote:

cmspano wrote:
...don't bring a lot of lasgun guardsmen.

Oh, couldn't agree more with this bit.
Against anything other than other guardsmen, they're little more than cannon fodder.

Exactly, and sometimes cannon fodder is exactly what you need. You just have to play with how much of it you need. The fact that KT is Charge->Shoot->Melee instead of Shoot->Charge->Melee is hugely important. Lasgun guardsmen are great at charging units to tie them up. Who cares if the guardsman dies, and against your average shooting unit he's going to live through one round of melee more often than not.

Even against orks my guardsmen had a decent chance of living through melee. 3 Attacks, 2 Hits, 1-2 wounds. 1/3 chance to save, 1/2 chance to only be flesh wounded.

Enemy shooting unit? Charge a guardsman
Enemy melee unit? Charge a guardsman if you went first this turn. I would much rather a lasgun guardsman charge a Genestealer than let the stealer charge a guy with a plasma gun. While the guardsman is dieing the plasma guy can back up and shoot something else for a turn.

As far as killing power, guardsmen with lasguns are reasonably useful for their points against other guardsmen, scions, ad mech, fire warriors, gaunts, Orks, etc. Basically anything that either has T3, or a bad save. As long as the T and Sv aren't both good it's acceptable for a 5 point model. For instance I would only bring 2-4 of them tops against any marine faction, just for fodder. Even a scout is T4 with a 4+, that's too low of a chance to be useful at killing.

What is the opinion on melee weapons for the Sergeant and Tempestor? Are the power sword and power fist worth it, or are you better off sticking to the chainsword even if you want them in melee? (E.g., if one of them isn’t your Leader.)

PS on S3 is usually not worth it.
Power fist on the other hand gives tempestor S6 so You will wound MEQ and even Plague Marines on 3+ which is nice.

Using tempestor as fighter and sarg using Fix Bayonets is kinda nice

Guys, any advice or examples? I'm building a mixed Scion and catachan kill team, I would like them to look like a reasonably coherent unit. I'm painting my catachans in a more urban scheme which should help them gel with the scions which I plan to paint greys and black.
Anybody built scions with bare arms or something? Not sure where I'm going to be honest so anything cool really I'd be interested to see

Getting a command box and a Scion box is a good start

I've already picked up a catachan box, a catachan command box, and the Scion kill team starter box. Just looking for inspiration really, I think I should be able to do plenty with what I have. It's mainly what catachan parts I should put on the scions...

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've already picked up a catachan box, a catachan command box, and the Scion kill team starter box. Just looking for inspiration really, I think I should be able to do plenty with what I have. It's mainly what catachan parts I should put on the scions...

Unless you’re into heavy converting, I’d keep the Scion arms as they are: it’ll be very hard to put th Hotshot lasguns on Catachan arms, and if you’re looking at the heavy weaponns, you’ll want as many of those as you can so discarding the Scion arms mean you’re left with just the contents of the Catachan command box and a couple of flamers.

The Scion beret heads work great for Catachans, so perhaps you can switch a few heads around. And give the Scions a few of those big, Catachan knives/swords. Other than that, a similar paint scheme should probably toe them together nicely.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've already picked up a catachan box, a catachan command box, and the Scion kill team starter box. Just looking for inspiration really, I think I should be able to do plenty with what I have. It's mainly what catachan parts I should put on the scions...

Make "The Expendables".

Abaddon303 wrote:
Guys, any advice or examples? I'm building a mixed Scion and catachan kill team, I would like them to look like a reasonably coherent unit. I'm painting my catachans in a more urban scheme which should help them gel with the scions which I plan to paint greys and black.
Anybody built scions with bare arms or something? Not sure where I'm going to be honest so anything cool really I'd be interested to see

If I had time/money/skill I would use scion legs, the mask+beret scion head, catachan torso (the cadian plate and six-pack style) and cut the arms so the hand and under arm armor is from a scion (like the volley gun bit) and the elbow-shoulder part is catachan.

I was excited about a Scion KT initially but after building and painting my Skitarii KT I kinda lost interest in Scions. Mainly because the melee options in a guard list are more or less nonexistent. Is there any reason to run a Scion list over a Skitarii list? Fluff or model aesthetics notwithstanding.

Yeah the Capture mission is a bit tough on the IG, it may need some tweaking. Played it against another IG player and it was basically just dumb luck which one of us won because with in general a single dice each for attacks it really came down to who was luck enough to drop 2-3 models before the other one.

In retrospect I should have just played to make my opponent run rather than actually trying to play the mission, which sort of means the mission needs work from my point of view.

After few games what do You think about Vox Caster? Is it worth it? Actually it is 10 points model doing nothing than hiding to provide buff.

On the other hand reroll failed nerve is neato . What are your opinion?

I have to say, I've taken one every game BUT haven't really used it.
That said, I do try to make sure that I have guys within 2", so typically, it's either impossible/very hard to fail, or I've lost so many I stand no chance, even with the re-roll (and in all honesty at that point, the guy with it is probably dead anyway).
However, that sort of thing might get more difficult when my opponents wise up and start bringing multi shot weaponry.

I find myself running Scion heavy lists having played a good 10 or so games, so 5 points isn't quite a whole guardsman anymore.

I also find I'm actually fairly rarely having to take nerve tests on more than one or two models. Typically either my guys are dead, or they aren't wounded. And the odd one you can command point if really needed.

Basically, that doesn't really help you, because I'm still "on the fence"!

 vonjankmon wrote:
Yeah the Capture mission is a bit tough on the IG, it may need some tweaking.

I'm glad you say that too - I played against TAU the other day, and we drew because after 2 turns three of my guys were unable to down a pathfinder and a drone - only achieving one wound. Similarly he did nothing to me.
I consider what's happened when my guys have been in combat against something even semi-competent, and they've been steam-roller-ed.

So I am planning to run list like this for Matched Play.
It is not a roster, just 100 point core team.
Any insight? I could really use some advice


++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Sergeant [5pts]: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Leader

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

+ Non-specialists +

Guardsman Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Special Weapons Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

++ Total: [100pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe